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Is Swing Weight Necessary?

SuperStroke
kevin81002 said:
Yeah. Efficiency will go up due to their ability to hit the center of the face with the shorter length club. It has nothing do to with swingweight. But take that same driver which you cut an inch off of, and start adding weight to the head until ballspeed peaks out. Now you're optimized, and probably back around that D2 range you started at.
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I don't necessarily agree with this. In fact at Club Champion their fits a lot of times swing weight far heavier, this is discussed in a few of our videos with their founder.
The device and range needs major updating since heads, shafts and grips have changed so dramatically
 
JB said:
I don't necessarily agree with this. In fact at Club Champion their fits a lot of times swing weight far heavier, this is discussed in a few of our videos with their founder.
The device and range needs major updating since heads, shafts and grips have changed so dramatically
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It's physically impossible to cut an inch off the shaft and the swingweight increases. Not sure if this is what you were trying to say or not, but it's physically impossible. Tell the Club Champion guy to quit leaning on the scale. ?

I do agree the system could use an upgrade to compensate for modern equipment. But there still needs to be a system in place... not just done away with completely.
 
Its a great relative measure within a set. I want to feel progressive swing weighting within a set. But I can't say there is one number that it has to be set to.
 
kevin81002 said:
It's physically impossible to cut an inch off the shaft and the swingweight increases. Not sure if this is what you were trying to say or not, but it's physically impossible. Tell the Club Champion guy to quit leaning on the scale. ?

I do agree the system could use an upgrade to compensate for modern equipment. But there still needs to be a system in place... not just done away with completely.
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Someone has skipped our videos haha.
And no that is not what I was trying to say at all.
 
I think it has a place as is, but the end user has to understand that it is relative. Get fit for shaft weight and swing weight (among other variables) and then keep records of what worked best for you in case you replace in the future.

But I'd keep the same shaft in future orders unless I got fit again and found that something different performed better, most likely due to swing changes over time (whether on purpose or not).
 
I defer to @TT SC on this subject. He made some compelling points at dinner and he is much smarter than I am in this regard.
 
Having never been fit for clubs I get kinda lost in these discussions. Hoping while on vacation to find someplace to get fit while in California or Arizona.
People talk about feeling the club head in the swing but I just don't really feel the head. Could going to midsize Align +4 grips from standard change swingweight?
 
Turtlerancher said:
Having never been fit for clubs I get kinda lost in these discussions. Hoping while on vacation to find someplace to get fit while in California or Arizona.
People talk about feeling the club head in the swing but I just don't really feel the head. Could going to midsize Align +4 grips from standard change swingweight?
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Yes it could/will change swing weight. If you are looking at the MCC Align grips, the standard weighs around 15 grams less than the mid size
 
i don't understand the question.

there is static weight. and there is swing weight. these are not mutually inclusive or exclusive; they just measure different things. kind of like strength and stiffness. they aren't the same, and both are very important.

what would you propose to replace swing weight with?
 
McLovin said:
i don't understand the question.

there is static weight. and there is swing weight. these are not mutually inclusive or exclusive; they just measure different things. kind of like strength and stiffness. they aren't the same, and both are very important.

what would you propose to replace swing weight with?
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That is the million dollar question, but I think it is outdated with how clubs are constructed. To me it reminds me of the putter aspect. Heads have gotten heavier and heavier, yet nothing changed in the shaft. All of the sudden someone changes something to fix the heavier weight head and people realize how great it can be. Continuing to add weight to different aspects of the club to fool something into swing weight is an idea I struggle to support.
 
If when looking at a club, the only metric considered is SW, I don’t think that’s incredibly useful anymore. That said, when you combine SW and total weight, you’re presented with a much better picture

I don’t think SW is the be-all end-all of club building, but it’s still useful for a specific purpose; if for nothing else than to note balance or provide indication as to why someone might like a certain set up. So maybe it’s not a final goal, but a starting point?
 
It's just a way of fine tuning the feel. You guys can do whatever you want to change the way it's measured, or what you call it. It's not "artificially adding weight to suffice a certain swingweight reading." It's fine tuning the club to suit the end user.
 
OITW said:
I defer to @TT SC on this subject. He made some compelling points at dinner and he is much smarter than I am in this regard.
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When i first brought it up to him at dinner, he took over and went in deep detail. Hitting every point that I am struggling to convey with typing. As a whole, it needs revamping completely in my opinion.
 
JB said:
When i first brought it up to him at dinner, he took over and went in deep detail. Hitting every point that I am struggling to convey with typing. As a whole, it needs revamping completely in my opinion.
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that’s why i posted the cop out answer- he broke it down so eloquently and it made sense, and like you am struggling to translate to type
 
McLovin said:
what would you propose to replace swing weight with?
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MOI matching has been around forever as an alternative but it’s never caught on.
 
It would certainly ease my mind a ton if SW were done away with. I stress way too much over it as evidenced by 1 measly inch of lead tape on several of my irons so they all register the same SW. I didn't even try them prior to "fixing" them...
 
I think you answered your own question in the original post of this thread. As you said yourself, swing weight was invented to quantify the dynamic feel of a golf club. None of that has changed, even though much else has. Swing weight was and still is the dynamic feel of a club. Its not the end-all, be-all but it is a factor and does play a role. Its not time to retire it though because it still plays a role.
If I take a 35" putter and cut it down to 33", it changes the swing weight and changed how the club feels. Ive bought quite a few putters off the rack that I liked when they were 35" but felt like they were too long, only to have them cut down and no longer liking the feel of the club so much.
So, is swing weight, "neccesary"? Yes but its not everything.
 
I have never had my swing weights checked, i have been fitted for irons and they felt great so just rolled with it. I agree with some others that i just go based off of feel and if it feels good and i hit it good not sure i care what the swing weight is.
 
Overall weight and swing weight do need to be a component of the fitting. I have a fast transition and have always been more accurate with heavier shafts. Swing weight I’m less sensitive to but most of my clubs are D2-D4. I’m better off with a D6 or D7 for accuracy than I am with a C-9 or less.
 
It's been mentioned a few times already but MOI matching is a thing and is the actual scientific measurement as well. Swingweight sorta measures the moi but its not really the same.

That said, until moi matching actually becomes a thing outside of certain specialty builders, swingweight will remain king. The scale is cheap (well there are expensive ones) and to "trick" the scale it's understood. Adding or removing headweight, shaft length, grip weight, and shaft weight or changing the balance point has an effect on the scale. How much each of those variables actually matter is more to do with the fitting than the sw number at the end.

Considering that on tour sw still significantly dominates the conversation on matching feel, I think it will be tough to get the oems to switch towards an moi based fitting scale. Additionally, the number of people who can feel a difference in Swingweight isnt that big unless going to extremes and likely other portions that got the Swingweight to change will be the reason why something feels off.
 
M2Giles said:
That said, until moi matching actually becomes a thing outside of certain specialty builders, swingweight will remain king. The scale is cheap (well there are expensive ones) and to "trick" the scale it's understood.
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My swingweight scale is a regular kitchen scale, a juice carton, a sharpie, a tape measure, and a custom automatic spreadsheet
 
I don't care what they call it, but it needs to have a place in the build process...imo.

Granted most people can't tell the difference, let alone between 1-2 points. However, there are some of us that can. I Pole Vaulted my way through college and you better believe I could tell a difference in schematics! Whether it be bend point, swing weight, ego schweight...I know hat I'm comfortable with.

Back then my life depended on knowing what I was traveling full speed into a stopping point 15-17 feet ahead of me @ 8" contact.

Now it's just what feels right. Too each there own but for me and my time, it matters.

My first set was MOI built and they felt great but built wrong. Maybe a combination of the two? Who knows but the preference is real.
 
The Swing Weight (SW) debate: I will voice my opinion, I don’t believe in building a set of clubs to a Pre-Defined SW is critical, I hear comments “I must have D-2”, in fact may be detrimental to the consistency of the club system. I do believe in the SW concept, to create a consistent dynamic feel thru a set of irons. I believe you should play the lightest- most flexible shaft you can CONTROL, I will focus on weight in this SW post. Let me elaborate…. grab a beer.

SW (Skip to next paragraph of you already know what SW is, Keenan @+7 KPTT says skip it): SW: The resultant torque of an assembled golf club around an arbitrary point, defined since about 1934 at 14” from the grip end. Each component of the assembly (head, shaft, grip, tape, glue…) has a contribution, its mass and location relative to this 14” fulcrum. The engineer takes each component, mass (F) and its center of mass (CG) relative to this 14” pivot (R), with a few equations summing all R x F you a resultant torque, this value is converted into an Alpha-Numeric system we all know, C-8 having less torque (lighter feel) vs D-9, (heavier feel) could be presented in-lb or N-m but then the magic is gone.

My biggest issue with building to a SW is there are so many ways to cheat the numbers game, it often leads to potential inconsistencies. Here are a few extreme cases:

Example 1: Shaft: when lightweight graphite iron shafts were introduced, some assemblers (using same head weight as steel) just lengthen the shaft length (longer club) so the head was farther from the SW pivot to achieve D2.

Example 2: Grip: replacing a stock 52g grip with a larger 78g grip, yes it lowers the SW, so I need to add weight to the other end of the club to achieve D2. Dynamically IMO you are going to feel that dynamically.

Example 3: Being custom for new clubs you’re recommended to play ½” over. Do you really want to add weight to under the grip just to maintain D-2. In this case a premium builder they may find lighter head weights to achieve this one.

I have done a lot of player testing, from high handicap to the tour player and everyone has a defined feel that they like. Some can quickly tell total weight is light or heavy when the club is first picked up, others during the swing, feel the dynamics of all the mass. I have had a lot of success with many player profiles especially when moving toward lighter shaft, to have a lighter swing. I have also adjusted those clubs (added head weight) to a D2 and received some undesirable comments about a heavy head feel.

So to recap, SW is a great tool to keep a set matched, but building to a “D2” can potentially alter the club performance the shaft designed wanted to achieve. Just remember you can swing weight a telephone pole to D2, so SW is just a number, to be considered along with a lot of other variables that results is a feel that works for you.
 
Gawd I love that post
 
Swing weight is probably very important, but it is the part of golf fitting talk where my eyes start to glaze over when people talk about it ?
 
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