Is swinging from the ground up a requirement?

[Luchnia]

Here Clay Ballard proves a 100 MPH swing and around 250 sitting in a chair. Hardly any lower body. There are some more guys that do this, but I don't recall all the vids. Proof one doesn't have to use the lower body much at all. Not implying this is the best, just that it simply can be done.



Late last year, I remember seeing a guy come out to the range in a device that was motorized that propped him up with hydraulics because apparently his lower body did not work. He would swing the club with his arms and hit amazingly good drives. To say that we need the ground, well yes only because there is gravity, but to have a decent swing, not really.

 

[blueonblack]

I see he has his knee bent to allow some of his body weight to get to his "front side" even sitting in the chair.
When he stands up and swings, its classic fundamentals. If he were to further prove the point, he wouldn't use the lower body when standing, either.

Guy at my dad's home course many years ago was a Vietnam vet, one of many I met with missing lower legs. This gentlemen had one leg and would make as classic a swing as possible, and his momentum would carry him forward, a la the Gary Player walk through, and he would pogo forward on that one leg after impact with all his momentum behind it. We always stopped to watch from afar from the adjacent hole it was so impressive to watch.

 

[WILDTHING]

Even if Clay Ballard is restricting his lower body from rotating , he is still applying friction forces between his feet and ground to allow him to swing the club (Newtons 3rd Law). He is using muscular contractions in his body to try and swing the club faster but needs help to optimise those contractions by creating frictional forces between his feet and ground without losing his balance.

Place his chair and feet on a sheet of ice and see what happens

 

[leftshot]

Even if Clay Ballard is restricting his lower body from rotating , he is still applying friction forces between his feet and ground to allow him to swing the club (Newtons 3rd Law). He is using muscular contractions in his body to try and swing the club faster but needs help to optimise those contractions by creating frictional forces between his feet and ground without losing his balance.

Place his chair and feet on a sheet of ice and see what happens

...and he has his butt on a cloth cushioned seat providing 3-point stability from which to apply forces.

 

[Sean]

There are a lot of different ways to swing a golf club. Right now most golf instruction is body centric, with passive arms/hands. No doubt that will change again at some point.

 

[Carolina Golfer]

Good stuff guys. Let's keep the debate going!

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Good stuff guys. Let's keep the debate going!

What Debate? There's only one answer...YES!

 

[Carolina Golfer]

What Debate? There's only one answer...YES!

lol

 

[robrandalgz]

You can think about lower body while working drills on the range, but when playing golf lower body movements shouldn’t have to be thought about. The lower body movement is a natural/subconscious reaction to your conscious task.

Fundamentals are great, but it’s disingenuous to suggest that they will make everything work all of a sudden. It just doesn’t work that way in real life. If your task is “hit the ball” you will most likely swing steep and over the top to hit down on the ball below you. Most will swing better automatically if their external task/focus is to swing the club or club head to a target while letting the ball get in the way.

And I've found that when I'm task focused instead of "You're legs should do this, and your swing plane should do this, and your hips should do this" I'm actually better at the task and my body engages most of those things on it's own.

Yes, you need to use the ground for more power and speed. No, you don't have to think that hard about it. In fact, the more you think about it, the worse you are at actually completing the task. That's not a theory, that's a fact. Can you do drills enough to where you can complete a task without thinking about it much? Sure. But if your head is filled with corkscrews, obliques and muscle engagement, during the process of the swing, your actual task is being overridden and you're f*cked.

Take two kids to a driving range that have never played golf. Tell one to hit the ball at the flag and mindf*ck the other one with corkscrews, and obliques and see who's better at the task. I've got a 100 to 1 one on the kid that was told to hit the ball at the flag.

For the record, this isn't a dig at @TrueMotionMatt or anyone in the teaching industry. All of them provide an invaluable service to those of us looking to improve and take our games to the next level. Can they help? ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY. There's no doubt about that. Can some of them fill your head with so much information that you're paralyzed by it? ABSO-FEAKING-LUTELY. I think every instructor would agree that many things related to the golf swing (especially in an overhaul) should be taken with baby steps.

With that being said, as a weekend hacker, if your swing takes 6 months to learn, it isn't worth learning, for me.

I agree. However, throwing a baseball seems to engage the lower body without thought. Same for chopping down a tree. For some reason, the lower body is not easily engaged in golf.

It is when you let gravity assist. Just like a baseball player or a lumberjack. Your body is a gravity genius. Cracking a whip, swinging in a swing, throwing a dart. You use the ground and gravity in all those things. Is it DIFFERENT in a golf swing? Absolutely. We don't live our lives sideways. That's the trick. But balance and gravity are, literally, unchanged.

 

[pinseeker]

as mentioned above, lots of new, modern buzz words and techniques. Not every so-called Ideal "thing" you do is a universal "fix all" for everyone. Some emphasize you must have fast hip rotation, others say passive hands, others say keep take away vertical at P2. They are all right to some extent, but not to be espoused by everybody. Also, different instructors have many ways to describe a particular motion. Some examples: Jim Waldron's Arm Swing Illusion states first 3-4 inches of take away is by hands going away from target line at 45* angle and torso does the rest. Paul Wilson's loose wrists and powerless arms and countless admonitions from various instructors. Taken one piece at a time, most are valid. During the PGA Champion match. One of the top contenders had very fast, what I would call "twitchy" hips. To sat that ALL tour players ALWAYS do this or do that is patently false, BUT there are some basic things that they would have in common.

 

[pinseeker]

Keep in mind, this is the internet. I don’t think I’ve ever played with anyone who shot their index. So often that I think most have vanity caps. Not just here, but golfers in general.

Not everyone plays courses that are difficult either and course/slope rating does a terrible job of differentiating courses.

Golfers, Fishermen, Buyers in real estate.......... "Buyers are liars".

 

[DG_1234]

Sam Snead said "turn and burn". He was right.
Nicklaus said he played his entire career turning around a steady head. He was right.
It is astonishing to me how complicated some people want to make the golf swing.

 

[pinseeker]

Sam Snead said "turn and burn". He was right.
Nicklaus said he played his entire career turning around a steady head. He was right.
It is astonishing to me how complicated some people want to make the golf swing.

John Daly "Grip it and rip it"

 

[robrandalgz]

Sam Snead said "turn and burn". He was right.
Nicklaus said he played his entire career turning around a steady head. He was right.
It is astonishing to me how complicated some people want to make the golf swing.

Jack also said that he never thought about turning his hips. I found that to be amazing really because he certainly did turn his hips (to explosive results). He just never gave it much thought. He told Mike Malaska that his hip turn was a result not an aforementioned thought. That was mind boggling to me and, honestly, changed my approach to how I'm learning the golf swing.

It's one reason that I'm reluctant to find a swing coach (though I KNOW that I should). The last thing I want to fill my head with is a bunch of "positions" at point A, B, and C. The only pro around here that gives lessons has his iPad and constantly shows his students "See, Rory is here at this point and YOU'RE here". I've seen him give several lessons and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. Not one time have I ever heard him tell a student that I want you to feel like you're doing this. You couldn't PAY ME to take a lesson like that. I'm sure as hell not giving away my own money for it.

So, I'm left with the roulette wheel of trying to find someone (literally) 2.5+ hours away that I can hopefully see once a month or.....................?

 

[DG_1234]

Jack also said that he never thought about turning his hips. I found that to be amazing really because he certainly did turn his hips (to explosive results). He just never gave it much thought. He told Mike Malaska that his hip turn was a result not an aforementioned thought. That was mind boggling to me and, honestly, changed my approach to how I'm learning the golf swing.

It's one reason that I'm reluctant to find a swing coach (though I KNOW that I should). The last thing I want to fill my head with is a bunch of "positions" at point A, B, and C. The only pro around here that gives lessons has his iPad and constantly shows his students "See, Rory is here at this point and YOU'RE here". I've seen him give several lessons and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. Not one time have I ever heard him tell a student that I want you to feel like you're doing this. You couldn't PAY ME to take a lesson like that. I'm sure as hell not giving away my own money for it.

So, I'm left with the roulette wheel of trying to find someone (literally) 2.5+ hours away that I can hopefully see once a month or.....................?

The sad truth is that 98% of the "instructors" out there now are charlatans taking money for selling nonsense that nobody should be buying.
Buy a copy of Jack Nicklaus book "Golf My Way". In that Nicklaus imparts what he learned as an 11 year old from his instructor Jack Grout. That is fundamentally sound grip-posture-alignment. The book has excellent color illustrations to teach the reader those crucial address fundamentals. From there one's naturally effective swing will emerge, without having to think about anything during the swing.

 

[pinseeker]

another take that may sound contradictory is that "slow and go, building blocks, putting together all the pieces of the swing" is not always the answer. It can be difficult to intentionally swing very slow, trying to stay in sync. Try to fake a slo mo swing. It may look very convincing right up to impact and you will automatically speed up at that moment. Some cannot do it at all because it is difficult to maintain sync. I have had times when I throw caution by the wayside and just "take a swat" and the ball just takes off in a really nice shot. I believe the reason is that the sync is "natural" not contrived.

 

[robrandalgz]

The sad truth is that 98% of the "instructors" out there now are charlatans taking money for selling nonsense that nobody should be buying.
Buy a copy of Jack Nicklaus book "Golf My Way". In that Nicklaus imparts what he learned as an 11 year old from his instructor Jack Grout. That is fundamentally sound grip-posture-alignment. The book has excellent color illustrations to teach the reader those crucial address fundamentals. From there one's naturally effective swing will emerge, without having to think about anything during the swing.

There's an excellent YouTube video by Jack of the same name (certainly pulled from an old VHS tape and re-posted). His section on alignment changed the game for me, literally. That video (I would think, adapted from the book) is a veritable gold mine of golf fundamentals.