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My post count just because of this thread
"Jacked" Lofts in 2020
Wait.. This thread isn't dead yet??
To me, it is just a number on the bottom of the club. The scorecard doesn't care what club you used on any particular approach shot. 
As we all know, every OEM is offering a set(s) with strong lofts. Nothing wrong with that, it is simply the evolution of equipment manufacturing. However, what does this mean for set composition? Traditionally, a set is comprised of 4-PW, but is that a "valid" composition given the stronger lofts?
Some set compositions may have to change going forward. For example, some 5-irons are now 20º-21º. That is a difficult loft for an amateur to hit (used to be a 3-iron). I know more than a few people with this kind of 5-iron and they struggle with it. So where should a set of irons start? 6-iron? 7-iron? How many wedges will one have to carry? Four? Five? PW, AW, GW, SW, and LW.
Even with the technology built in to help get the ball airborne, many amateurs struggle with these "mid-irons".
On another note, asking someone what he hit is almost useless today. For example, the person might say, "I hit a 5-iron," though his 5 is 28º. The guy who asked the question may say, "I hit a 7-iron," which is 27º.
As we all know, every OEM is offering a set(s) with strong lofts. Nothing wrong with that, it is simply the evolution of equipment manufacturing. However, what does this mean for set composition? Traditionally, a set is comprised of 4-PW, but is that a "valid" composition given the stronger lofts?
Some set compositions may have to change going forward. For example, some 5-irons are now 20º-21º. That is a difficult loft for an amateur to hit (used to be a 3-iron). I know more than a few people with this kind of 5-iron and they struggle with it. So where should a set of irons start? 6-iron? 7-iron? How many wedges will one have to carry? Four? Five? PW, AW, GW, SW, and LW.
Even with the technology built in to help get the ball airborne, many amateurs struggle with these "mid-irons".
On another note, asking someone what he hit is almost useless today. For example, the person might say, "I hit a 5-iron," though his 5 is 28º. The guy who asked the question may say, "I hit a 7-iron," which is 27º.
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The answer lies in our use of numbers. The fact that you stated that "Traditionally, a set is comprised of 4-PW" speaks to part of the problem and part of the Answer and disagreements.To me, it is just a number on the bottom of the club. The scorecard doesn't care what club you used on any particular approach shot.
As we all know, every OEM is offering a set(s) with strong lofts. Nothing wrong with that, it is simply the evolution of equipment manufacturing. However, what does this mean for set composition? Traditionally, a set is comprised of 4-PW, but is that a "valid" composition given the stronger lofts?
Some set compositions may have to change going forward. For example, some 5-irons are now 20º-21º. That is a difficult loft for an amateur to hit (used to be a 3-iron). I know more than a few people with this kind of 5-iron and they struggle with it. So where should a set of irons start? 6-iron? 7-iron? How many wedges will one have to carry? Four? Five? PW, AW, GW, SW, and LW.
Even with the technology built in to help get the ball airborne, many amateurs struggle with these "mid-irons".
On another note, asking someone what he hit is almost useless today. For example, the person might say, "I hit a 5-iron," though his 5 is 28º. The guy who asked the question may say, "I hit a 7-iron," which is 27º.
Traditionally we start counting with the number one. So when we first switched from names to numbers to facilitate our ability to decide which Club to use from different Distances we would use the number 1. Woods started with a 1 Wood. Today commonly called a Driver. Etc. Etc. With many sets including a 1, 2, 3, 4 Wood. For what ever Reason when we started calling the 1 Wood a Driver no one seemed to care. My first to complete sets of clubs included a 1 Wood. Not a Driver. And it started with a 3 iron. When I asked innocently why I didn't have a 1 iron I was told matter of factly that, "because nobody could hit a One Iron."
I think you can see where I am going with this.
Likewise, "Traditionally " when they started Stamping irons with numbers they also started with a One iron. Since no one could hit it successfully, except for the extremely exceptional Golfer, no one would want to buy a one iron.
The OEM'S of that era made sets numbered 3-PW because that is the normal set most common Amateurs would purchase.
So we can almost detect when a person started playing golf by what they consider a normal set.
From starting sets with a 1 Iron or a 1 Wood. To starting sets with a 3 Wood and a 3 Iron, change in OEM'S numbering was slow to change. With most common players never noticing the difference.
So today many Common sets of clubs Start with a 4 or 5 Iron. And many Amateurs buy sets starting at a 6 iron. Including myself, went I couldn't hit a 3. 4, or 5 iron even 10 % of the Time successfully.
But the limits of human ability for the common Amateurs has not changed. Amateurs continue to struggle, unless they practice endless hours, to hit any Club with a loft below 30 degrees. Regardless of the naming system, or numbers stamped on the bottom of the Iron.
So Technology steps up. Now many Amateurs Golfers can successfully hit a Iron with a loft below 30 degrees. My self included. But because of old experiences and shopping habits, I personally wouldn't look at any Club with a 1, 2, 3, or 4 Iron stamped on the bottom. I imagine that I was not alone.
But now with the new technology in Iron design, I will leave the experts to explain the technological advances, most Amateurs can hit lower lofted Iron.
So the Stamping followed the market. And a few OEM'S introduced a Driving Iron. Which Bobby Jones, Tom Morris and Ben Hogan would have simply called a 1 Iron. And I agree with their logic and decision. A Driving Iron is a fantastic Club.
Secondly, and I understand most people will not get this far into my reply. There is a Hard Stop at a 14 club limit in Amateurs and professional golf. And again because of advances in technology many Amateurs Golfers can and desire to purchase high lofted clubs. Up to 80* Degrees as seen in this post.
So how do you go from 14 degrees to 80 degrees? And remain within the 14 Club limit? And still carry a Driver and a putter?
Maybe you can Increase the size of the degrees of loft difference of the lofts between your Irons. Or you can eliminate clubs from the Top end, longer distance clubs, or the bottom end, shorter distance clubs. Plus you also may desire to carry a Fairway Wood or Two, and a Hybrid or two or more?
Something has to give.
Their lies the answer. The buyer gets to choose. Period. Today you can do your research and purchase your clubs in any configuration, picking any loft, any type of clubs, any Gapping, and any style or OEM.
Only limit is 14 clubs and that they are manufactured to the standards established by the ruling bodies to be conforming to the rules for use in regulation and Tournament play.
So in conclusion, the numbering system is arbitrary. It can start at 1, 67, or 14376.
The lofts, length of the shafts are in the spec sheets. It is up to the consumer to do his or her research.
So starting to count for most humans starts with the number one. And as anyone who plays golf knows, most Golfers have a significant inability to count past 4. Maybe 5 strokes.
So just do your research. Pick the set of clubs that maximizes your potential to perform your best when you play.
With the use of non traditional or non standardized numbering stamped on the bottom of the clubs that research includes understanding what the lofts of your Clubs are. And how you can build your set to maximize your goals.
Gone are the days that you can just go to any store or outlet, hit a 6 or 7 iron and blindly purchase a brand new set of Irons or clubs.
We are the fortunate ones. Because of a incredible resource, with instant access to top level experts, and insider information available on the THP We either know what we need to buy, or can easily ask a fellow THPER'S opinion. We can make incredibly Intelligent decisions about each and every golf club we buy.
Unfortunately, gone forever are the days of look at a Picture online and blindly purchase a new set of clubs. They may look pretty cool in your bag, but you might unfortunately discover that once they are out on the golf course, you honestly can't hit the six Iron longer than your 8 iron.
And again, what does every single person on THP recommend to each other and anyone who ask? Please go get a professional fitting. Avoid buyer's regret. Everyone here loves golf and sincerely desires the sport to grow. And any dissatisfied buyer or player who is not playing to their Maximum potential is one person who may potentially quit playing golf forever.
Nothing else matters. Get a proper fitting and gather as much information about your equipment, before you spend one penny of your hard earned Cash.
If you don't like the lofts pick another set. If you're not seeing the gapping in your clubs that you prefer. Get the Lofts adjusted. Or purchase clubs to cover your gaps. If you need more Distance. The Newest Technology will help. If you can't hit the lower lofted Irons buy a hybrid or two. Can't hit your Wedges. Get a Chipper.
You get my point. But a set doesn't have to start at a 1 or 4 or 6 Iron. it simply doesn't. But that doesn't mean that you can not find a set that is right for you. Today.
Sorry for the Rant.
Cheers. Peace and Love
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KingSinghUNLTD
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Yes, pretty certain the lofts are correct.
Current set:
7i 31*
8i 35*
9i 40*
The newer set is more of a players cavity back iron.
6i 29*
7i 33*
8i 37*
9i 41*
The game improvement irons (if one can call them that) provide fewer clubs that are useable where I need them because of the lofts.
KingSinghUNLTD
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Thank you. My point was the game improvement irons that I prefer provide fewer clubs in the range that I need most because the lots have been strengthened. For me to have 14 usable I’ll need to go with players type irons - not ideal.
I’ll bite a little bit haha.
for me I don’t care about lofts one terms of what the bottom of the iron says and what it’s lofted at.
now with my basic understanding of tech, I know companies are having to strengthen lofts to help keep launch characteristics in check and make the newer helpful irons playable.
my thing is that, there is a too far point. Maybe not for all, but certainly for players like me and even players who swing slower than me, there is a point where we just cannot get clubs with certain lofts to launch and be playable no matter the tech (usually a combination of speed and club delivery of course). I’ve attempted a ton of newer irons that have launch helping tech and what not in the long irons becauseI just never have been a fan of hybrids. Buttt with lofts getting stronger and my delivery, I really struggle launching/elevating clubs once they get lower loft than around 24* whether that’s a 3 iron or some new 7 irons (just naming a club. Not sure if anyone has gone that strong?).
I hit them well. They go straight and everything, but they don’t launch or peak high enough to carry good gapping with the rest of my set. They typically end up getting too much roll distance. Stronger lofts, lower spin and I’m still not getting launch so now I am forced and have learned to hit hybrids and I enjoy them now.
so long winded haha but again, I don’t mind stronger lofts. I get there is a reason for them. I just think that for most golfers out there, there is a too far in“loft jacking”. For high speed players probably not a thing and it’s perfect for themto use as a driving iron or more friendly long iron replacement as hybrids tend to spin more or go too high for them.
for me I don’t care about lofts one terms of what the bottom of the iron says and what it’s lofted at.
now with my basic understanding of tech, I know companies are having to strengthen lofts to help keep launch characteristics in check and make the newer helpful irons playable.
my thing is that, there is a too far point. Maybe not for all, but certainly for players like me and even players who swing slower than me, there is a point where we just cannot get clubs with certain lofts to launch and be playable no matter the tech (usually a combination of speed and club delivery of course). I’ve attempted a ton of newer irons that have launch helping tech and what not in the long irons becauseI just never have been a fan of hybrids. Buttt with lofts getting stronger and my delivery, I really struggle launching/elevating clubs once they get lower loft than around 24* whether that’s a 3 iron or some new 7 irons (just naming a club. Not sure if anyone has gone that strong?).
I hit them well. They go straight and everything, but they don’t launch or peak high enough to carry good gapping with the rest of my set. They typically end up getting too much roll distance. Stronger lofts, lower spin and I’m still not getting launch so now I am forced and have learned to hit hybrids and I enjoy them now.
so long winded haha but again, I don’t mind stronger lofts. I get there is a reason for them. I just think that for most golfers out there, there is a too far in“loft jacking”. For high speed players probably not a thing and it’s perfect for themto use as a driving iron or more friendly long iron replacement as hybrids tend to spin more or go too high for them.
- Admin
- #709
Hybrids tend to spin more?
They can, but its certainly not absolute as weight can be manipulated so much.
apologies. Worded it wronG I guess after looking at it.
for the high speed swinger it seems (from what I read and notice on the course) they complain of hybrids launching too high and getting that spinny ballooning due to the tech. While the equivalent iron at the same loft launch better for them.
Hit my new AP1 710 5i for the first time yesterday and went about 220 lol. The 5i on my old Callaway Pro-Series X-14 went about 190-200. Definitely need to figure out my new distances.
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- #712
So in other words, the design of the club is playing a larger role in spin, launch and speed than the stated loft?
I play 714 AP1 and I use 5 wedges. PW,W1,W2,54*58*!
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We will be seeing a lot more golfers carrying 5 or more wedges. Our head pro is on Callaway staff and he just ordered a set of Epic Forged irons and will now carry 6 wedges. Others like me will stay with weaker lofts on the short irons and stick with four wedges(46,51,56, 60) and carry two 6 irons(Epic Forged & Z565) and an Epic 4 iron. I will say that my 105ish driver swing speed is close to the lower limit of what's needed to launch an 18* Epic Forged 4 iron off a tight fairway lie.
I don't play GI set per se but I do carry 5 wedges. PW, GW in the set, and 52, 56, and 60.
I'm about the same swing speed (105-110) but pretty new to golf and definitely not able to hit anything past my 5 iron consistently. 5-7 iron is a 50/50 chance of going anywhere near the target for me as is.
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- #718
Im not sure how many fittings you have witnessed but that is a pretty absolute statement and thisis coming from someone that is currently playing with those irons.
For me, if the lofts still correlate to good numbers (decent angle, ball speed, etc.) then it shouldn’t really matter. I like to be able to hit specific numbers and not be worried about something hot going 10 yards further than expected. Maybe that’s why I like more traditional lofts and set ups.
My current setup. Not that anyone else needs to follow my Bag. Works for me.
Driver 8*
3W 13.5*
4-AW 21.5*, 24*, 27*, 31*, 35.5*, 40*, 45*, 50*.
Wedges 54*, 58*, 62*.
Putter 3*
No Gapping Issues.
30 Yards between Dr-3W
30 Yards 3W-4 Iron
12-15 Yards Between Irons and Wedges
10 Yards Between Wedges.
No bending Lofts. All Standard Specs as OEM'S Designed.
Works well as long as I strike the ball correctly.
Driver 8*
3W 13.5*
4-AW 21.5*, 24*, 27*, 31*, 35.5*, 40*, 45*, 50*.
Wedges 54*, 58*, 62*.
Putter 3*
No Gapping Issues.
30 Yards between Dr-3W
30 Yards 3W-4 Iron
12-15 Yards Between Irons and Wedges
10 Yards Between Wedges.
No bending Lofts. All Standard Specs as OEM'S Designed.
Works well as long as I strike the ball correctly.
Shaft can make a difference for sure but I'm a high ball hitter and my 18* Epic Forged 4 iron is certainly lower launching than the other seven 18-19* driving irons that I own from Mizuno, Titleist, Srixon, Callaway, Adams, Ping, and Taylormade. For me, the EF 4 iron is certainly harder to launch than my 8* Epic SZ driver with Rogue Silver 70 I/O or my 12.5* Callaway X2 Hot 2Deep. Just my observations, your mileage may vary, of course.
I really didn't want to get into this because I know where it will head to BUT I myself really don't care about the lofts, EXCEPT that for me it's easier to hit a lofted iron, which is one reason I carry 5 wedges and play with an older set of irons. I'm still looking for that newer magical set and hopefully this year will be it.
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- #723
I would be very interested to know what percentage of golfers are aware of the lofts on their clubs AND their peak height with them.
Would it freak anyone out to know that my pitching wedge is currently 43 degrees? Would it equally freak you out to know that my peak height is still higher than average with every club, at somewhere between 115 and 130 feet because my dynamic loft is more akin to a traditional lofted PW?
I adore the jacked loft claim. I think that golf companies often avoid showing their numbers to deter the lunacy of a person who does not comprehend that 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 when it comes to shot production.
Would it freak anyone out to know that my pitching wedge is currently 43 degrees? Would it equally freak you out to know that my peak height is still higher than average with every club, at somewhere between 115 and 130 feet because my dynamic loft is more akin to a traditional lofted PW?
I adore the jacked loft claim. I think that golf companies often avoid showing their numbers to deter the lunacy of a person who does not comprehend that 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 when it comes to shot production.
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- #724
Perfect.
So the Epic Forged 18 degree is harder to launch than your 8 degree driver.
So in other words, the design of the club is playing a larger role in spin, launch and speed than the stated loft?