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Joe Dante Four Magic Moves and necessary flexibility??

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Gatormike

Gatormike

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Hello all. Would love to hear from any advocates for the Dante instruction book in my post’s title and, specifically, whether same can be effectively used by a golfer with limited flexibility —- one who has a hard time with hip turns and limited shoulder turn range.

I just got turned onto this book on these very forums as I fight a bad “hit” at the ball instinct. I am recovering from an injury so reading the book, the concepts are resonating with me and would welcome thoughts. I am terribly inflexible and deploy a very short backswing to golf my best —- a 90 degree shoulder turn either puts me in traction for a few days or finds me spinning out of the swing! :oops:

I did a search but not too many active member discussions (I guess since the book is going on 50 years old!). Thanks in advance!
 
"Four Magic Moves......" Is an updated version of Abe Mitchell's swing theories that we still see on the professional golf tours today. The problems with instruction of past eras is in the language - being written by journalists and not the golf expert - leaving the instruction open to misinterpretation. When I first saw Dustin Johnson's golf swing my first thoughts were about Mitchell and Dante publications.
The only issue I have with Dante's book relates to the elements of the pivot. What's written describes a lateral pivot action where Dante owned a rotational pivot to go with his hold-off release. Whoever wrote the book (given it wasn't Dante) didn't understand how pivots and releases need to be matched. Everything else in the book is spot on. Ben Hogan's "Five Lessons...." describes a rotational pivot and would dove-tale perfectly with Dante's other swing elements.
Given your physical limitations, learning a rotational pivot where the pivot powers the swing with the upper body and arms resisting the transition to the downswing, will be a real challenge.
 
Thanks for the quick reply, razaar! Very informative. A couple follow on queries if you please (and others can chime in):
a) so no pivot/rotary-based swing is advised for a “torsionally-challenged”/inflexible golfer like me? 😏
b) the concepts in Dante’s book will fail if one cannot get to the top as defined therein?
c) what swing model/school/theory should inflexible golfers pursue then? I have read and tried to apply a lot of Mike Adams body type stuff as I am also short-legged/short-armed but longish, big chested trunk. So Stadler was advised as a model by GolfTec, but it just seems so difficult. Some success with single-plane too.

I know it is arguable fallacy to seek recommended swing instruction without seeing my swing, etc. but would appreciate your and Others’ thoughts/guidance nonetheless. Age (55), joint stiffness and herniated discs in lower back two years ago has taken me from shooting high 80’s consistently to struggling to just break 100 now….so I am seeking help to reverse the bad trend. Wifey is already pushing me toward yoga and better diet so I will try that too.

Peace and many thanks again.
 
Mitchell wrote some swing recommendations for stout built types and others who find it difficult to follow the advice for carrying out the details of the golf swing in his publications.
His suggested adaptions -
Stance - square, with ball central between the feet.
Grip - hands further out from the body.
Club - flatter lie.
Backswing - round the body, without a see-saw movement of the shoulders.
Downswing - try to get a slight draw on the ball by rotating the forearms at the bottom of the swing. Swing slowly.
 
Sorry bit late to this! I have been using this technique the 4 magic moves for a few months now. I'm 62 and a comfortable 8 hcap with an old right shoulder injury and right ankle injury. \this swing method does not require either a big shoulder turn or pivot. I bought the book and followed it religiously. Very uncomfortable to start with with the backward wrist brake but trust it and it soon feels natural. very compact and powerful. From what you said your limitations are I think it would suit you greatly. if you try it and you are getting more pain that muscle fatigue you are doing something outside the swing method. Took a little while to break old habits but worth it. Highly repeatable.
The part I got a little stuck on was the firing the hips. I discovered that by ensuring my head stayed behind the ball on the downswing the hips fired toward the target naturally with an unforced turn when it reached the limit . Hold that wrist break until the club is just about to strike the ball and it somehow releases naturally. The miss with this is either a slight pull or slight top. Both still travel a long way. This with a decent short game has finally got me to single figures. Wish I knew about it 20 yrs ago. Good luck
 
ian175055 said:
Sorry bit late to this! I have been using this technique the 4 magic moves for a few months now. I'm 62 and a comfortable 8 hcap with an old right shoulder injury and right ankle injury. \this swing method does not require either a big shoulder turn or pivot. I bought the book and followed it religiously. Very uncomfortable to start with with the backward wrist brake but trust it and it soon feels natural. very compact and powerful. From what you said your limitations are I think it would suit you greatly. if you try it and you are getting more pain that muscle fatigue you are doing something outside the swing method. Took a little while to break old habits but worth it. Highly repeatable.
The part I got a little stuck on was the firing the hips. I discovered that by ensuring my head stayed behind the ball on the downswing the hips fired toward the target naturally with an unforced turn when it reached the limit . Hold that wrist break until the club is just about to strike the ball and it somehow releases naturally. The miss with this is either a slight pull or slight top. Both still travel a long way. This with a decent short game has finally got me to single figures. Wish I knew about it 20 yrs ago. Good luck
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Hi Ian, I’ve been using the Dante swing for a long time. I read your post and agree with keeping your head behind the ball which naturally produces a lateral hip shift. And yes, the club does release naturally and the ball is compressed very well with no effort by the hands. But the hands are responsible for clubhead speed, so I am consciously trying to speed up my hands to obtain more distance. The Dante system is quite ingenious in that it presets the wrists early in the backswing so you don’t have to think about them during the backswing and downswing. True, the hips do fire toward the target but I’m working on firing the hips actively and not passively which increases my hand speed.
 
HGJ said:
Hi Ian, I’ve been using the Dante swing for a long time. I read your post and agree with keeping your head behind the ball which naturally produces a lateral hip shift. And yes, the club does release naturally and the ball is compressed very well with no effort by the hands. But the hands are responsible for clubhead speed, so I am consciously trying to speed up my hands to obtain more distance. The Dante system is quite ingenious in that it presets the wrists early in the backswing so you don’t have to think about them during the backswing and downswing. True, the hips do fire toward the target but I’m working on firing the hips actively and not passively which increases my hand speed.
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I tried firing the hips actively and it got me into trouble hitting a few thins. I also got into trouble by unconsciously lifting the arms very slightly on the backswing which is a no no. I had to learn to trust the feeling of doing an almost half swing by letting the shoulders turn the arms. The speed and compression I get from that position is quite amazing. Sometimes I fall back into that trap because the brain cant compute that the "feel" of the short backswing is enough. Its great having one swing for all the clubs.
 
ian175055 said:
I tried firing the hips actively and it got me into trouble hitting a few thins. I also got into trouble by unconsciously lifting the arms very slightly on the backswing which is a no no. I had to learn to trust the feeling of doing an almost half swing by letting the shoulders turn the arms. The speed and compression I get from that position is quite amazing. Sometimes I fall back into that trap because the brain cant compute that the "feel" of the short backswing is enough. Its great having one swing for all the clubs.
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Ian,I understand about the shorter backswing letting the shoulders turn the arms. How do you handle your driver? How far can you hit it using the Dante method. I love the feeling of compression but my distance on my driver needs improvement. Howard
 
HGJ said:
Ian,I understand about the shorter backswing letting the shoulders turn the arms. How do you handle your driver? How far can you hit it using the Dante method. I love the feeling of compression but my distance on my driver needs improvement. Howard
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I had a few problems with skying shots at first with the driver. no doubt the swing suits the irons best. I found I moved the ball more toward the lead foot big toe and really try and hit up . I also make sure the shaft leans slightly forward at address. When I get it right it flies with a slight draw and rolls out nicely to about 250-260. The miss is a low one slightly pulled but still in play and shorter. Much better than the wicked slice I produced too often before. This needs more practise as it requires the wrist break to be held longer with a more pronounced hip shift.
 
ian175055 said:
I had a few problems with skying shots at first with the driver. no doubt the swing suits the irons best. I found I moved the ball more toward the lead foot big toe and really try and hit up . I also make sure the shaft leans slightly forward at address. When I get it right it flies with a slight draw and rolls out nicely to about 250-260. The miss is a low one slightly pulled but still in play and shorter. Much better than the wicked slice I produced too often before. This needs more practise as it requires the wrist break to be held longer with a more pronounced hip shift.
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Wow Ian-that great!! I will try that-what’s your handicap? How old are you? Where do you play? I’m 74 and live in NYC
 
HGJ said:
Wow Ian-that great!! I will try that-what’s your handicap? How old are you? Where do you play? I’m 74 and live in NYC
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I'm 63 with a handicap index of 8.4 playing 9. I live in England UK. I play golf three times a week even through the winter. Getting cold and wet now.
 
Ian, the Dante system is quite interesting-I feel like the ball explodes off of the clubface with very little effort-the key to the swing, in my opinion, is to be diligent about keeping your arms and hands passive while shifting your weight laterally as the first move with your head stationary behind the ball. When I make this move, my arms automatically shallow out with my right elbow against my side. This creates tremendous lag and results in a piercing, compressed ball flight. It’s almost magical as I don’t feel my arms or my hands are doing anything but reacting to my lateral hip turn.
 
I issue I have with this book is in the section "starting down". The magic move of laterally moving the hips until they turn is setting up a body stall and flip release, especially for the golfer who has his weight pressure on the inside of the trail foot at the end of the backswing.
Hogan's "Five Lessons....." Is a more accurate description of of what the hips should do in transition from backswing to downswing.
A more detailed description is in the thread titled "Spine Engine Theory - is it viable" in Swing Tips forum Oct 26 2021.
 
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There are numerous ways to strike a golf ball-we want to minimize too many moving parts especially the use of the hands to square the club to the ball as this requires perfect timing. The Dante method presets the hands so the clubface is shut or closed. The left wrist is slightly bowed at impact and the right wrist bent back. Dustin Johnson has a similar wrist position at the top of his swing, just set later in the swing. With Dante, the initial shifting and then rotating of the hips supplies the power to deliver the clubface into the ball without any flipping. It’s the body which produces the power, not the arms or hands.
 
razaar said:
I issue I have with this book is in the section "starting down". The magic move of laterally moving the hips until they turn is setting up a body stall and flip release, especially for the golfer who has his weight pressure on the inside of the trail foot at the end of the backswing.
Hogan's "Five Lessons....." Is a more accurate description of of what the hips should do in transition from backswing to downswing.
A more detailed description is in the thread titled "Spine Engine Theory - is it viable" in Swing Tips forum Oct 26 2021.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your post. I am reading “Spine Engine Theory” by Jeff Mann. He does an excellent job of explaining anatomically and through biometrics which muscles are utilized by pro golfers to rotate their hips. Curious as to why you think an initial lateral slide of the hips promotes a body to stall and a flip release? The lateral hip movement is just a bump which shallows out the club while the hips start to rotate. Thoughts?
 
HGJ said:
Thanks for your post. I am reading “Spine Engine Theory” by Jeff Mann. He does an excellent job of explaining anatomically and through biometrics which muscles are utilized by pro golfers to rotate their hips. Curious as to why you think an initial lateral slide of the hips promotes a body to stall and a flip release? The lateral hip movement is just a bump which shallows out the club while the hips start to rotate. Thoughts?
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The artical on the spine engine is by Kelvin Miyahira not.Jeff Mann. The purpose of the transition is to set up the down swing which requires the spine to be locked with the pelvis so the legs can make the best use of the ground to rotate the body during the downswing through impact. The locking of pelvis with the spine is referred the as nutation of the sacroiliac joint. The way to do this is by tilting the left hip to the left while tilting the pelvis forward. This combination rotates the pelvis/spine unit. The legs add force to the rotation.
A lateral hip movement does what it says but without nutation, so that most of the body rotation occurs after impact. This is what causes the flip release through lack of speed through body rotation to hold clubhead lag during the downswing.
 
razaar said:
The artical on the spine engine is by Kelvin Miyahira not.Jeff Mann. The purpose of the transition is to set up the down swing which requires the spine to be locked with the pelvis so the legs can make the best use of the ground to rotate the body during the downswing through impact. The locking of pelvis with the spine is referred the as nutation of the sacroiliac joint. The way to do this is by tilting the left hip to the left while tilting the pelvis forward. This combination rotates the pelvis/spine unit. The legs add force to the rotation.
A lateral hip movement does what it says but without nutation, so that most of the body rotation occurs after impact. This is what causes the flip release through lack of speed through body rotation to hold clubhead lag during the downswing.
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Jeff Mann actually critiqued the Miyahara article-if you key into the Google search bar “Spine Engine in Golf” you will get the Jeff Mann article which in effect tries to discredit the Miyahara theory. So if I understand you correctly, the Dante lateral shift with the left hip to initiate the downswing stalls the body rotation which produces a flip of the hands through impact. Very interesting —I’m going to work on that. Thanks for responding. Do you use the Dante method but with a rotation of the hips rather than a lateral shift? Thanks, Howard
 
HGJ said:
Jeff Mann actually critiqued the Miyahara article-if you key into the Google search bar “Spine Engine in Golf” you will get the Jeff Mann article which in effect tries to discredit the Miyahara theory. So if I understand you correctly, the Dante lateral shift with the left hip to initiate the downswing stalls the body rotation which produces a flip of the hands through impact. Very interesting —I’m going to work on that. Thanks for responding. Do you use the Dante method but with a rotation of the hips rather than a lateral shift? Thanks, Howard
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I doubt that Dante used the lateral shift method he describes in his book. The pictures of his swing in the book show his hips very open to the target at impact similar to Hogan's swing. Yet both wrote completely different methods on how it is done.
I have been using the method described by Abe Mitchell in his publications circa 1930's that I have in my library. Mitchell described a rotational pivot with arm and wrist movements that is common with tour professionals including Dante. I have been using this method for 20 + years.
I first read about the spine engine theory in Kelvin's two 2010 articles about it. I recognised it immediately when I read them because it was the method two of our regular golf group owned in their swings. The two are Cam and his father Des Smith.
 
razaar said:
I doubt that Dante used the lateral shift method he describes in his book. The pictures of his swing in the book show his hips very open to the target at impact similar to Hogan's swing. Yet both wrote completely different methods on how it is done.
I have been using the method described by Abe Mitchell in his publications circa 1930's that I have in my library. Mitchell described a rotational pivot with arm and wrist movements that is common with tour professionals including Dante. I have been using this method for 20 + years.
I first read about the spine engine theory in Kelvin's two 2010 articles about it. I recognised it immediately when I read them because it was the method two of our regular golf group owned in their swings. The two are Cam and his father Des Smith.
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Thanks for the update-you are in good company with Cam Smith! I’m going to try the rotational pivot to see if it increases my compression and my distance. Howard
 
Which of these shifts would be most like Dr Kwon's shift-turn? That is working for me and has stopped lateral hip slide. With this shift-turn, suddenly, my turn is 90* and my left arm is straighter. I was always told I was inflexible, but I think I just had a bad chain and visual of how to shift-turn.
 
Styles said:
Which of these shifts would be most like Dr Kwon's shift-turn? That is working for me and has stopped lateral hip slide. With this shift-turn, suddenly, my turn is 90* and my left arm is straighter. I was always told I was inflexible, but I think I just had a bad chain and visual of how to shift-turn.
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Thanks! I will check out Dr. Kwon’s shift turn
 

Seems valid
 
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