Kinematic Graphs Of PGA Pros - Which one is the caster all the way from top of backswing?

[WILDTHING]

Not sure this would interest many of you who aren't into golf biomechanics but here are some kinematic graphs of several PGA pros . It's basically showing the how fast parts of their bodies are rotating during the downswing.

Pelvis (red line)
Thorax which is the ribcage (green line)
Lead arm (blue line)
Club (brown line)

I was surprised to see one pga pro who seems to cast almost immediately in the downswing. Can you figure out which one it is? Actually there is almost another but he doesn't progressively cast all the way in the downswing.

Can you also figure out when 'Release' seems to occur?

You might want to magnify your computer screen to see more detail (for my computer I press 'Crtl' and '+' button)

 

[mtbloco]

Pavin. Lead Arm is faster than thorax.

 

[WILDTHING]

Pavin. Lead Arm is faster than thorax.

He's the one that is close to being a full caster in the downswing. Can you spot another? Your not quite correct about it being ' lead arm faster than thorax'.

 

[mtbloco]

He's the one that is close to being a full caster in the downswing. Can you spot another? Your not quite correct about it being ' lead arm faster than thorax'.

Rickie.

the "textbook" trend of speith "peak progression"....hips, chest, arms, club....says the outliers are those with arms peak before chest.

 

[WILDTHING]

Rickie.

the "textbook" trend of speith "peak progression"....hips, chest, arms, club....says the outliers are those with arms peak before chest.

Sorry , its not Rickie. Think about the what would happen to the club rotation when someone casts.

 

[WILDTHING]

It's Jordan Spieth - 3 times major winner seems to be a caster all the way in the downswing (unless I've got this completely wrong myself- won't be the first time). The clubs rotational speed is greater than the lead arm but note that the distance between the brown and blue graphs (as the downswing progresses) gets larger all the way to impact. So he's basically uncocking his lead wrist progressively faster than his lead arm (from a rotational perspective) from beginning of downswing all the way to impact (ie. releasing very early in the downswing).

Release occurs when the blue and brown lines cross where the brown line move above the blue line. If the blue line crosses above the brown line, that means the angle between the club and lead arm is decreasing (ie. more lag).

Check out JB Holmes where during the downswing, the blue line actually moves above the brown line , which means he is increasing his lag angle in the early downswing but then they cross again at 'Release Point' (ie. where the brown line moves above the blue line). I've been looking at these damn graphs for years and never realised how to interpret them properly until yesterday when I read this article below:

Article-KinematicSequenceTransitionDownswing.pdf (sgpl.ch)

Look how fast Rory's lead arm is rotating compared to JB Holmes but their clubhead angular rotation at impact are pretty similar (JBH actually a little larger than Rory). I can imagine JBH clubhead speed is superior to Rory at impact even though his peak arm speed is less.

I can't see much generic similarity in how PGA pros move their lead arm and club or the timing of their release . The only pattern that seems to be consistent is the sequence of rotation ' during transition 'Pelvis/Ribcage/Arm/Club'.

 

[WILDTHING]

To my eye, the key timing of the sequence are there for all of them. If one adds ’extra’ on the backswing, like Pavin’s arm rotation going back, then one has to make up for it at somepoint, like Pavin did. With a 3/4 swing this difference would go away, but the timing (when a segment rotation/movement slows down and the next more distal segment speeds up) of the sequence would still be there.

I've been looking at that Corey Pavin graph again and it looks like he's casting more vociferously in the early downswing than in the mid-swing (even though his club angular velocity is increasing) . I'm still unsure whether this means there is an increase in his wrist-cock when the brown and blue lines get closer together (see enlarged image below where I've drawn arrows showing the difference between the lead arm and club angular velocities). I've sent an email to Dr Phil Cheetham asking the question.





Blimey , I feel as if I have to revisit my old physics regarding relative movements to understand what's going on . I guess that the angle between the lead arm and club (ie. wrist-cock angle) is progressively increasing but at a decreasing rate when the brown and blue graphs get closer together at any instant in time. My gut feeling is that there is no increase in wrist-cock .

The only way one can assume an increase in wrist-cock is when that blue line crosses over on top of the brown line (but I'll await Dr Phil Cheetham to reply back if he has the time).

One other thing I noted was that Ernie Els and JB Holmes seem to have very similar looking graphs (possible float loaders- maybe Grant Waite and Ricky Fowler too).

 

[blugold]

While I am not surprised that Corey Pavin supposed casted from the top, he is a short hitter that had some success in a bygone era, I don't know how to exactly interpret these graphs. I am going to guess the other is Grant Waite, because I have never heard of him before and I bet his cast was a major limiting factor in how competitive he could be at the top level.

 

[WILDTHING]

While I am not surprised that Corey Pavin supposed casted from the top, he is a short hitter that had some success in a bygone era, I don't know how to exactly interpret these graphs. I am going to guess the other is Grant Waite, because I have never heard of him before and I bet his cast was a major limiting factor in how competitive he could be at the top level.

The other caster is Jordan Spieth while Grant Waite actually increases his wrist-cock in the early downswing.

 

[The Milk Man]

While I am not surprised that Corey Pavin supposed casted from the top, he is a short hitter that had some success in a bygone era, I don't know how to exactly interpret these graphs. I am going to guess the other is Grant Waite, because I have never heard of him before and I bet his cast was a major limiting factor in how competitive he could be at the top level.

Grant Waite was a long time tour pro with 1 win on tour. Regarded as having one of the best swings on tour when he played. Now is one of the premier teachers in the game.

 

[blugold]

Grant Waite was a long time tour pro with 1 win on tour. Regarded as having one of the best swings on tour when he played. Now is one of the premier teachers in the game.

Good on him. Doesn't change my sentiment.

 

[WILDTHING]

I shouldn't really label Jordan Spieth or any pga pros as 'casters' as that implies a swing fault . They are 'early releasers' and their timing is impeccable.

 

[Bosco...]

Aaaaaand I just went cross-eyed

 

[WILDTHING]

Here is something that might be a bit interesting . It shows the position in the downswing where peak speed rotation speed occurs by pelvis, ribcage, lead arm .

It's a lot earlier in the downswing than you may think.

The images further below are 45 pga pro positions where peak pelvis speed occur and note that the last 4 have peak pelvis speed after the club has already released (ie. lead wrist has uncocked) who are not very big hitters on tour.

This sort of shows that most of the effort in the golf swing takes place in the early downswing mostly before club is vertical or slightly past vertical , hips already nearly square and lead arm anywhere from horizontal to 30-45 degrees below horizontal.

Although this gives the impression that the golfer has to apply a lot more effort earlier in the downswing , this does not mean a 'jerky' action . The application of force/torque must be smoothly ramped up. Its easier to apply more force/torque when the club is moving slower by your upper (slower) torso and shoulder girdle muscles than when its moving faster (like trying to push on a car as you move it faster - it gets more difficult to keep up enough to apply the push).

 

[WILDTHING]

I've been listening to these podcasts by Dr Phil Cheetham regarding Kinematic sequence and X-factor stretch and found them quite interesting:

soundcloud.com/search?q=Phil%20cheetham


Some points I noted:

"Because of the force velocity curve , that allows you to contract the muscles more forcefully. Muscles can produce more force in eccentric contraction, that's where they are stretching and lengthening than they can in a concentric contraction where they are contracting and shortening."

"However more (ie. stretch-shorten) is not always better because it has to be fast, you can't just stretch and stretch and stretch and decide to close it back up again because you would miss the timing. So quite often we see in flexible women a very large x-factor stretch but it's not effective because the strength in the muscle wasn't behind that stretch. In other words they have gone past the amount of stretch and basically its a fast-stretch and release so the velocity of that stretch is important too.

"As well as shoulder adduction stretch it also happens at the wrist"

" Ernie Els starts to cast the club a little bit and then reloads the club just before release. We call that a pre-release loading or a 'Release and Reload'."

"Women have a similar Core stretch and shoulder adduction stretch as the men but men have 6 degree of wrist stretch while the women only about 2 degrees of wrist stretch , so its obvious from that data that the men have learned that downswing loading and wrist stretch and use it more often than the women do to gain that extra power in the downswing"


I didn't fully understand the bolded part.


I also noted a few things he said regarding the kinematic sequence :

60% pga pros use the Pelvis/Thorax/Arm/Club sequence.
74% pga pros use the Pelvis/Thorax sequence.
89% pga pros use Pelvis first.

But doesn't that also suggest :
40% of pga pros do not use the full kinematic sequence Pelvis/Thorax/Arm/Club .
26% pga pros do not use the Pelvis/Thorax sequence.
11% do not move the Pelvis first.

I'm finding the above % figures difficult to understand

Waste of time trying to figure out all the permutations and combinations of the 40% that do no use utilise the Pelvis/Thorax/Arm/Club permutation.

If my logic is correct , then the biomechanics of pga tour golfers is very varied.

 

[WILDTHING]

Some more pondering and after discussion with Dr Jeff Mann on another forum we think Dr Phil Cheetham may not be wholly correct about looking at a pga tour players kinematic sequence (alone) to assume he is uncocking his wrists early (ie. like Jordan Spieth and Corey Pavin). That is where the brown line is above the blue line during transition or early downswing.

The reason being that the kinematic sequence angular velocities of the club shaft are measured in 3D and not in the same plane as the left arm.

Therefore one has to take into account the angular velocity components of the club shaft caused by extension/flexion of the wrists and pronation/supination of the forearms, internal/external rotation of the whole lead arms.

So it could be that a fair portion of the 3D angular velocity components of the club is not within the swing plane of the lead arm, therefore one cannot assume that brown line being above the blue line can 100% confirm 'casting' happening. One would need to look at other 3D graphs showing how wrists/forearms/arms might affect the club shaft angular velocity independent of the lead arm swing plane.

Example: See DJ club shaft is shallowing perpendicular to his left arm swing plane . If he did that shallowing move , his club shaft 3D angular velocity (brown graph in kinematic sequence) could be higher than his left arm , even though he might not be 'casting' (ie. uncocking his lead wrist).

 

[rocullen]

seems like it'd be the ones with early club head speed and slowly rising compared to later club head speed with sharper peaks.

brown line starts rising before or outside and left of the others; Pavin and Spieth

 

[Jiffypop]

The early release/casting Speith does....is this why it always seems like he has that chicken-wing move after impact?
I know it's not it actually, but it seems like it

 

[WILDTHING]

The early release/casting Speith does....is this why it always seems like he has that chicken-wing move after impact?
I know it's not it actually, but it seems like it

There are theories out there saying JS chicken wings to keep his clubface stable and square to the club path post impact.

Masters 2016: Jordan Spieth chicken wing swing analysis | Golf Channel

Jordan Spieth Chicken Wing Shot (secretgolf.com)



Other theorists say he doesn't get his left shoulder socket high enough to shallow the club path approaching impact . Therefore he has to chicken wing to shallow the club path instead (otherwise the angle of attack would be too steep , especially for the driver). Not being able to extend the left leg enough or stalling his body pivot might be a root cause for the left shoulder not getting high and back enough. The stalling of his left shoulder socket might be because he is using his dominant trail 'arm/hand' to push the left 'arm/hand' targetwards to create clubshaft forward lean near impact (rather than using his upper body pivot to help pull the left arm/hand through).

As far as I am aware , there is no need to chicken wing to keep the clubface square to the path for several inches post impact .

 

[Jiffypop]

There are theories out there saying JS chicken wings to keep his clubface stable and square to the club path post impact.

Masters 2016: Jordan Spieth chicken wing swing analysis | Golf Channel

Jordan Spieth Chicken Wing Shot (secretgolf.com)



Other theorists say he doesn't get his left shoulder socket high enough to shallow the club path approaching impact . Therefore he has to chicken wing to shallow the club path instead (otherwise the angle of attack would be too steep , especially for the driver). Not being able to extend the left leg enough or stalling his body pivot might be a root cause for the left shoulder not getting high and back enough. The stalling of his left shoulder socket might be because he is using his dominant trail 'arm/hand' to push the left 'arm/hand' targetwards to create clubshaft forward lean near impact (rather than using his upper body pivot to help pull the left arm/hand through).

As far as I am aware , there is no need to chicken wing to keep the clubface square to the path for several inches post impact .

Wow! This a bit of information to process. I appreciate the information. Gives me something to think about during boring conference calls

This a "Chicken wing" that has won 3 majors and 10s of millions of dollars.
At the end of the day, if it works, it works.

 

[WILDTHING]

Wow! This a bit of information to process. I appreciate the information. Gives me something to think about during boring conference calls

This a "Chicken wing" that has won 3 majors and 10s of millions of dollars.
At the end of the day, if it works, it works.

Yes , his short game and putting seems to be a major (no pun intended) contributor to those wins.

69th ranked driving distance
186th ranked driving accuracy ( 54.29% )
23rd Eagles
8th Birdie Average
11th Scoring Average
7th Putts per round
118th Greens In Regulation

 

[rocullen]

Yes , his short game and putting seems to be a major (no pun intended) contributor to those wins.

69th ranked driving distance
186th ranked driving accuracy ( 54.29% )
23rd Eagles
8th Birdie Average
11th Scoring Average
7th Putts per round
118th Greens In Regulation

Someone had a thread a while back. "what part of a pro's game would you want?"

I said short game. everyone wondered why.
They(especially the top 10 in short game) can get up and down from anywhere.
I finally capitulated when they stipulated approach shots were within 10 feet. A bit unrealistic.

 

[CBaker]

This is very interesting to me, but I don't really get how to interpret it in a way that I can actually use lol

 

[WILDTHING]

This is very interesting to me, but I don't really get how to interpret it in a way that I can actually use lol

Maybe a kinematic sequence graph of your own swing compared to PGA tour pros could help identify areas to make your swing more efficient (ie. more clubhead speed with less effort) . However there is no guarantee that a perfect kinematic sequence will make you a better player but 60% (a high percentage) of all pga pros use the pelvis/ribcage/arm/club in their swing biomechanics.

 

[JonMA1]

Maybe a kinematic sequence graph of your own swing compared to PGA tour pros could help identify areas to make your swing more efficient (ie. more clubhead speed with less effort) . However there is no guarantee that a perfect kinematic sequence will make you a better player but 60% (a high percentage) of all pga pros use the pelvis/ribcage/arm/club in their swing biomechanics.

Agreed for those who have a certain level of natural ability. I often wonder how beneficial it is for those of us on the lower end of the curve. In other words, how do we - or a teaching pro - know how close we should try to get to what the best in the world are able to accomplish? I have to believe that given the available time and ability for amateurs, there’s an optimal target for each individual. That getting “closer” is a good thing but trying to match may be detrimental.
Not a strong opinion, just something I think a lot about.
And as others have said, thank you for taking the time to post the information.