Kinematic Graphs Of PGA Pros - Which one is the caster all the way from top of backswing?

[Lane]

He says he's *feeling* like he's starting club first. He interchanges club and arms in the video.

I think I've figured out where the disconnect is in all of these swing mechanics discussions. People are confusing feel and real.

Just because Jason Kokrac *feels* the starting first doesn't mean that's what is *really* happening.

You're very concerned about the real, not the feel.

Wildthing- your last sentence is absolutely spot on- 100 percent! Nothing else !
I agree also that your next to last sentence is absolutely SPOT ON ! BC-the brain receives messages on a * delayed basis * . Therefore, in 2/10 seconds of time for the DS it is impossible for the human to “” feel “” what actually happened . He could have only “”” felt “””what had *** already *** happened . And , IMO, that is why so many great players have failed in their attempts to teach others . How could they ?

 

[WILDTHING]

What do they consider the start of the down swing? The club head going to zero and reversing speed? The arms?
What I see in the isolated graph, the hips started a bit before what they are calling "top". Doesn't that mean there is some X factor there? How much?
I still see the hips leading the rotation until right after what they call the "top".

" If there were large x-factors happening during transition between pelvis and ribcage , then pelvis would show a distinct peak earlier than the ribcage graph "​

I think I would have to exchange "large" for sustained as in a kinematic sequence. After initial transition move, he may just emphasize his shoulders as in being a "hitter" instead of a "swinger". Maybe the kinematic sequence is entirely for a pure "swinger".

It is pretty clear that he doesn't follow the kinematic chain, but what if he did?
Right now, it's all kinda conjecture.

I used to be in the "hitter' class, but I AM TRYING to change that. It's a rough task after 50 years or so of that mentality and I never thought about the hips other than "getting the swing started". I've many a discussion on Hogan's idealogy about the X factor. I know he didn't coin the phrase. That was good ole McClain, I think. Many say/said it added nothing and I'd counter that it was more of a "kick start" to the swing. from my purely hitter attitude and added early speed and wasn't like a rubber band that pulled you all the way thru the swing.
Now that I'm trying to change, I am trying to get my hips a little more involved. Maybe I'm fighting a losing/useless battle.

BTW I guess you can see I like technical golf swing discussion even though I don't know the technical jargon.

​

The clubhead going to zero angular velocity is the vertical black line (Top of backswing).

Lets take an example where the golfer is very flexible and doesn't complete his backswing because he might end up overswinging . Would he feel much x-factor stretch when the pelvis transitions before the ribcage or will he just experience a taking up of 'slack'? No real x-factor pre-stretch happening there.

Jim McLean's 'x-factor' is different to the 'x-factor pre-stretch' that Dr Phil Cheetham talks and writes about. Amateur and 'PGA Pro' degree of 'Jim McLean X-factor' is virtually the same in the backswing but PGA Pros have a significantly higher 'x-factor pre-stretch' (ie. stretch shorten cycle) in the downswing.

Not sure how would you define a hitter

 

[rocullen]

To me a hitter is one that feels his hands and arms move the club away at take away, probably has shorter backswing, drives thru the ball depending on angular movements.
A swinger, to me, feels the club swing away, has longer backswing, pulls the club thru and depends on the momentum of the shaft for power.
Just my thoughts. Could be completely wrong. As they say, golf is anything but intuitive.

 

[WILDTHING]

To me a hitter is one that feels his hands and arms move the club away at take away, probably has shorter backswing, drives thru the ball depending on angular movements.
A swinger, to me, feels the club swing away, has longer backswing, pulls the club thru and depends on the momentum of the shaft for power.
Just my thoughts. Could be completely wrong. As they say, golf is anything but intuitive.

How about this definition?

1. A swinger utilises 'Centrifugal Force ' to create clubhead speed (CF force is just an easy pragmatic way of describing what causes 'Release' ).
2. A hitter uses muscular torque on the handle to create clubhead speed (ie. an active push across the grip with the trail hand and an active pull across the grip with the lead hand like an ice-hockey slap shot).

At high clubhead speeds golf scientists claim using CF force to further increase speed is the most efficient way (possibly feels like less effort involved). Long drivers actually use both because the club shafts are so long that just using CF forces becomes biomechanically difficult so they have to use some 'hitting' element.

 

[rocullen]

How about this definition?

1. A swinger utilises 'Centrifugal Force ' to create clubhead speed (CF force is just an easy pragmatic way of describing what causes 'Release' ).
2. A hitter uses muscular torque on the handle to create clubhead speed (ie. an active push across the grip with the trail hand and an active pull across the grip with the lead hand like an ice-hockey slap shot).

At high clubhead speeds golf scientists claim using CF force to further increase speed is the most efficient way (possibly feels like less effort involved). Long drivers actually use both because the club shafts are so long that just using CF forces becomes biomechanically difficult so they have to use some 'hitting' element.

Probably what TGM calls a 4 barrel golfer

 

[Lane]

Rocullen- sorry , but I totally disagree with your assessment- The hitter throws , releases the face of the club into the ball from the very top of their BS with an intent to “ hit “ the ball. That requires a * speeding up of the hands * which causes the torso to slow down and stop rotation. Kinda like the tail wagging the dog. Obviously, this is what 99 % of beginners and high handicapped players do !
The swinger understands that golf is a game of leverage and ** CONTROLS ** the ** BUTT END ** of that lever and knows that ANY effort to apply pressure on the grip with the HANDS ( they only control / direct the entire process) In order to create power is disastrous and detrimental BC that immediately disrupts the entire sequence and slows down torso rotation ( that old Newtie thingie again ) which eliminates the power of our stretched muscles— which are the ONLY power available to propel ANY object very far .
The swinger is kinda like this pic of this decent player I have attached .

 

[WILDTHING]

A follow up on speed summation, for those interested and open to new information, is the difference between a rigid and compound pendulum (segments). A complement to 'who is leading' and sequencing.
View attachment 9023373

The only problem with the compound pendulum analogy is the last segment . Now try replacing the shortest distal segment for both pendulums with a free-hinged longer segment (ie. similar to a club) and then imagine what the motion would be like.

Also which one would require more timing so that the most distal segment bottomed out correctly (ie. nearer impact)?

 

[WILDTHING]

So at least most of those pga tour kinematic graphs show the correct sequencing which is similar to the compound pendulum analogy (but not necessarily using the stretch-shorten cycles between joint segments).