Lag

[Lane]

I think you are arguing against something no instructor advocates. I don't know any instructor that teaches that you SHOULD flip your hands at impact. Quite the opposite! Many times I have heard instructors say that those that do flip the hands are attempting to try to square the clubface. But that isn't even remotely the same thing as saying instructors advocate doing so.

OK- then why do they put their hands and arms in the same position/ lag as the attached players and NOT explain that - the torso squares the face from there?

 

[Puttmaster]

With all due respect to the instructors in the videos - it is NOT THE HANDS that square the clubface . This old myth about having to ** flip ** the hands if the club is being pulled down on an flat inclined plane is just — incorrect ! Always has been and ALWAYS will be !
Ben Hogans DS was flat . Did he win 71 tournaments and 4 ( some say 5 ) US OPENS by ** flipping / timing** his strike with his HANDS ? Does the best ball striker on tour today - Sergio Garcia ? Nope - no human could do that consistently!
What has been sorely missed and left out ( and understandably so ) is the ****turning /rotation of the inner circle - AKA - the turning / rotating TORSO . That is what ***** SQUARES THE FACE ***** , not the HANDS !
Attached below are three examples of this and I will answer the question I ask as no one has ever given it a shot and I have asked it several times .
All four of these great players have PULLED their lever down from the top until their HANDS are somewhere in front of the crease of their right pants leg - yet all have still maintained approx. the same angle ( lag ) between their arms and shaft. . No intent to hit / throw / or that butt ugly word I hate to use -to intentionality release ( ugggh ) nasty word. !
Do they *** flip *** their hands from that position ? Do the use their HANDS to square the face at that point during their 2/10 seconds DS ( 200 milliseconds) when they have used most of those already and very few milliseconds left ?
The answer is - NO .
Of course I am totally wrong and I await to be corrected !

Using static, 2D photos to emphatically state what that means happened before that position and what must, therefore, happen after that position is total nonsense ... and it's a road that has messed up many aspiring golfers.

 

[Lane]

Using static, 2D photos to emphatically state what that means happened before that position and what must, therefore, happen after that position is total nonsense ... and it's a road that has messed up many aspiring golfers.

So- these still pics are fake ? That is NOT what the high speed camera took? That actually didn’t happen during their actual swing ?

 

[WILDTHING]

Here's a good recent podcast from Dr Sasho MacKenzie that talks about wrist angles , lag and its relationship to clubhead speed.

This is a summary of how I interpreted some of that podcast (I might be wrong).

Episode #28 - Dr Sasho MacKenzie - Wrist angles & club head speed | Listen Notes

There is a correlation between lag angle (angle between shaft and lead arm) and clubhead speed.

Lag is an effect of other body movements.

Casting from the top is bad and can be alleviated if you have soft wrists near transition while using the correct kinematic sequence from the ground up. This means that the lower body moves first before the clubhead reaches the top of the backswing (ie. the transition phase).

Actively holding lag is bad because you won't have time to relax your forearm muscles to allow efficient energy transfer from other body parts via your hands to the club and this will reduce clubhead speed by impact.

Max hand speed has a correlation with clubhead speed and it happens approximately midway between shaft vertical to horizontal in the downswing.

One can easily increase hand speed by pulling down very fast but this can have a negative on effect on clubhead speed . For instance you can pull the club downwards very fast but then be unable to complete a golf swing or get the clubhead to ball . You might also be able to create a lot of lag but then you will be unable to release that lag angle by impact (reduction in clubhead speed). You must also be able to swing the club within your capabilities so trying to maximise one aspect of your swing (ie. faster hands) might not be compatible with other parts.

No link between fast hands at impact and clubhead speed.

The small muscles of the wrists and the angles they create are a facilitator/controller for efficient transfer of energy from other body parts via your hands to the club.

 

[leftshot]

Casting from the top is bad and can be alleviated if you have soft wrists near transition while using the correct kinematic sequence from the ground up. This means that the lower body moves first before the clubhead reaches the top of the backswing (ie. the transition phase).

There was a lot of good stuff in your post, so I'm going to eat the elephant a bite at a time.

The reason casting from the top is bad is it works against you in two important ways. The act of casting from the top creates forces pulling you AWAY from the target keeping you stuck on your back foot. I've literally never seen a player that casts from the top that doesn't end up hitting off their back foot.

It also saps a LOT of clubhead speed, partly because the lag is all gone before you get close to the ball, but also because you literally have to change the clubhead's direction from going away from the target to toward the target.

This is also why if a player has gone from this type of swing to one properly sequenced and properly using ground forces, the new swing is not just much longer, but to the player it feels relatively effortless.

 

[Lane]

Here's a good recent podcast from Dr Sasho MacKenzie that talks about wrist angles , lag and its relationship to clubhead speed.

This is a summary of how I interpreted some of that podcast (I might be wrong).

Episode #28 - Dr Sasho MacKenzie - Wrist angles & club head speed | Listen Notes

There is a correlation between lag angle (angle between shaft and lead arm) and clubhead speed.

Lag is an effect of other body movements.

Casting from the top is bad and can be alleviated if you have soft wrists near transition while using the correct kinematic sequence from the ground up. This means that the lower body moves first before the clubhead reaches the top of the backswing (ie. the transition phase).

Actively holding lag is bad because you won't have time to relax your forearm muscles to allow efficient energy transfer from other body parts via your hands to the club and this will reduce clubhead speed by impact.

Max hand speed has a correlation with clubhead speed and it happens approximately midway between shaft vertical to horizontal in the downswing.

One can easily increase hand speed by pulling down very fast but this can have a negative on effect on clubhead speed . For instance you can pull the club downwards very fast but then be unable to complete a golf swing or get the clubhead to ball . You might also be able to create a lot of lag but then you will be unable to release that lag angle by impact (reduction in clubhead speed). You must also be able to swing the club within your capabilities so trying to maximise one aspect of your swing (ie. faster hands) might not be compatible with other parts.

No link between fast hands at impact and clubhead speed.

The small muscles of the wrists and the angles they create are a facilitator/controller for efficient transfer of energy from other body parts via your hands to the club.

OH NO—— what is he thinking ? Talking about HANDS as being a part of the golf swing ? I didn’t know they had anything to do with it .
It is every body part , except the hands i have been told .
The ***** intent / instructions ***** from our dominant hands to PULL the lever down and around causes the lower body to *** automatically PULL**** around to it’s left . As long as the wrist ( free- swinging hinges ) are relaxed this lower body movement causes a delay in the shaft and head ( angle between the arms and shaft ( AKA - lag ) .
Newton’s Third Law is of critical importance during the DS —- if the HANDS SPEED UP - the torso will SLOW DOWN . And the player is left with no rotational power - only to slap weakly with their hands .
Of course - this is totally opposite what the lesser player’s normal genetic inclination- that fast hands are the key to speed and distance . It is ONLY NATURAL TO THINK THAT WAY . Fast HANDS are detrimental to the golf swing, but they are the director of the entire swing and they exhibit total **** control **** over the body’s movements !
Technically- Tiger Woods HANDS are ** CONTROLLING ** the shaft , but his hands are slowing down at this point to allow the face to catch up . Not an intentional slowing - just great timing of the entire arms and body in sequence!

 

[Lane]

There was a lot of good stuff in your post, so I'm going to eat the elephant a bite at a time.

The reason casting from the top is bad is it works against you in two important ways. The act of casting from the top creates forces pulling you AWAY from the target keeping you stuck on your back foot. I've literally never seen a player that casts from the top that doesn't end up hitting off their back foot.

It also saps a LOT of clubhead speed, partly because the lag is all gone before you get close to the ball, but also because you literally have to change the clubhead's direction from going away from the target to toward the target.

This is also why if a player has gone from this type of swing to one properly sequenced and properly using ground forces, the new swing is not just much longer, but to the player it feels relatively effortless.

This is well stated . Good explanation—- I have a way of putting it that seems to click with some ——

You set up and your brain has planned out and is 100 % prepared to propel that ball South . You formed your lever back there with your HANDS and ARM - your left side lat and back muscles are ** stretched ** and ready to pull all their power into the ball . Beautiful- you look great, BUT , BUT — at the very start of your DS your genetics impulse took over and you immediately began to throw that entire beautiful , efficient lever system ( all 28 lbs. of hands and arms plus club) you formed back to the *** NORTH *** In the opposite direction. You have presented your body with a predicament which is impossible for it to overcome. It has NO CHOICE but to stop and retract . Most fall back as is stated in the above post .
The HANDS and ARMS are the most dominant parts of the body . They dictate almost all body movements and their body will ALWAYS position itself to accommodate the path they desire to travel ! Genetics rule us and we all play by the same rules in this game.