lie angle on driver, how important is it?

[mancest]

Have put in quite a bit of work on my swing and trying to get everything I can dialed in. In doing that I have been getting in practice time on a GC Quad with both down the line and face on video. I finished my practice session today with a few driver swings. Took a photo of the last shot because, well I was very happy with the result.... but something jumped out at me:

Besides the fact that I had one rpm of side spin…. 5.8 upright on lie angle. Does that matter with a driver? Hoping someone with fitting experience can answer?

@xThor maybe you know?

If it helps, this is with my Core Paradym 10.5* head set at n/+1 with the weight almost completely in fade setting.

Also, how the heck do I generate more spin (besides more club head speed and hitting it lower on the face…)? 2200 is fun when I hit the middle of the face…. Not so great when the toe comes into play…

 

[MGoBlue]

As I understand it upright lie angle with a driver is used to counter fade/slice tendencies a bit.

 

[RayG]

Upright- Ball goes left, Flat- Ball goes right. BUT, shaft flex, tip stiffness, etc... can affect that a bit. Check out some slow mo vids of drivers at moment of contact. the shaft actually flexes VERTICALLY- which is why "proper" lie angle is supposed to be "toe up" a bit. The shaft will flex and return to the ball in a neutral lie angle... or at least that's the theory. Too much of either and it will cause that fade or draw naturally.

 

[Iceman!]

To @RayG point, it must be important enough for Callaway to offer Flat COGS for their drivers.

 

[mancest]

Upright- Ball goes left, Flat- Ball goes right. BUT, shaft flex, tip stiffness, etc... can affect that a bit. Check out some slow mo vids of drivers at moment of contact. the shaft actually flexes VERTICALLY- which is why "proper" lie angle is supposed to be "toe up" a bit. The shaft will flex and return to the ball in a neutral lie angle... or at least that's the theory. Too much of either and it will cause that fade or draw naturally.

That makes sense, I would think though that lie angle a) matters less as the loft goes down? and b) it matters less when the ball is elevated as much as it is on a tee?

Again, I don't really know, but 5 degrees seems like a lot, and maybe part of why I need to keep the weight in fade settings with a pretty neutral delivery to no go left?

 

[PiratePenguin]

Upright- Ball goes left, Flat- Ball goes right. BUT, shaft flex, tip stiffness, etc... can affect that a bit. Check out some slow mo vids of drivers at moment of contact. the shaft actually flexes VERTICALLY- which is why "proper" lie angle is supposed to be "toe up" a bit. The shaft will flex and return to the ball in a neutral lie angle... or at least that's the theory. Too much of either and it will cause that fade or draw naturally.

This was what my fitter at Club Champion explained when I did a driver fitting earlier this year and wound up in the Stealth 2, because it is one of the flattest options and helped limit me going left since my driver swing gets a little flat and I also play a natural draw.

 

[mancest]

Tagging @vgolfman as I know he knows the answer to my initial query.

 

[vgolfman]

Lie angle obviously matters, but mainly for start line and side spin. If the ball is starting a little right and/or has too much cut spin, go more upright. If the ball starts too far left and/or too much hook spin, go more flat. This is true for drivers and all golf clubs.

For drivers and drivers only, since there should be no ground contact, REALLY don't worry about the lie angle number itself, just how it affects ball flight. For all other clubs (fairways, hybrids, irons and wedges), there is a feel factor that should be considered as well, though I would argue ball flight is still more important. Even for fairways, hybrids, irons and wedges on full shots, the ball is gone (or at least should be) before the club head/sole contacts the ground. So, lie angle and the sole design can affect how the club feels upon ground impact and how it cuts through the turf, but I would take slightly toe deep (or heel heavy) divots that still feel good/OK with an optimal, straight ball flight over perfectly square divots and a flawed ball flight every time.

Still, sole design certainly matters on specialty shots (out of the rough, 30-50 pitch shots, out of sand bunkers, etc. for irons/wedges and more subtle but critical aspects of the bottom of fairways and hybrids)) and the type of turf (hard or soft especially) should be factored into a fitting, but ball flight is what matters most, especially for driver that isn't contacting the ground during a swing. If the bounce/sole design of a non-driver is truly terrible for your delivery (i.e. digs and takes really deep divots or bounces causing quality of contact issues) then a different head should be looked at as lie angle changes likely can't overcome that.

 

[vgolfman]

That makes sense, I would think though that lie angle a) matters less as the loft goes down? and b) it matters less when the ball is elevated as much as it is on a tee?

Again, I don't really know, but 5 degrees seems like a lot, and maybe part of why I need to keep the weight in fade settings with a pretty neutral delivery to no go left?

See my other response on your first/main question, but wanted to clear a few things up here as well...
> Yes, the effect of lie angle decreases as loft decreases, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter for drivers (it does!), especially when factoring the small changes will be maximized due to the high ball speeds.
> You should do your best to use the tee height in the fitting you use while you play. Teeing it higher will point the face more left, while teeing it lower will point the face more right, all other things being equal. Ever hear someone tell you to tee it low if you want to hit a cut? Lie angle is a small factor in that. On the flip side, ever have a shot way above your feet and it goes waaaayyyyyy left? That's because the effective lie angle is extremely upright in that case.
> 5 degrees is not excessive for a driver. Ball flight matters waaaayyyyyy more than a number that will only be measured with a launch monitor.
> Your numbers in the first post look GREAT! If you can hit the driver like that consistently, stop overthinking it and go with what appears to be a near perfect set up for you!

 

[Hitsnmisses]

Really well explained @vgolfman
Always thought not so much influence on the driver .

 

[Stemmy66]

See my other response on your first/main question, but wanted to clear a few things up here as well...
> Yes, the effect of lie angle decreases as loft decreases, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter for drivers (it does!), especially when factoring the small changes will maximized due to the high ball speeds.
> You should do your best to use the tee height in the fitting you use while you play. Teeing it higher will point the face more left, while teeing it lower will point the face more right, all other things being equal. Ever hear someone tell you to tee it low if you want to hit a cut? Lie angle is a small factor in that. One the flip side, ever have a shot way above your feet and it goes waaaayyyyyy left? That's because the effective lie angle is extremely upright in that case.
> 5 degrees is not excessive for a driver. Ball flight matters waaaayyyyyy more than a number that will only be measured with a launch monitor.
> Your numbers in the first post look GREAT! If you can hit the driver like that consistently, stop overthinking it and go with what appears to be a near perfect set up for you!

Really loved the examples to explain this phenomenon! Thanks

 

[jbb2388]

Such great info

 

[DNice26]

I find driver lie to be quite important.

And while I agree with the conventional thinking of flat provides slight fade bias and upright supports a slight draw bias, I’ve discovered this isn’t written in stone. I’ve noticed that I tend to essentially overreact to seeing a flat club and will often hook it. While I’ll hold more with upright clubs. I’ve also noticed that with upright clubs, it pulls my strike location off the toe (my tendency). Flat lies tend to make me strike more toe side.

This just drives home the idea of fitting and experimentation. The conventional “rules” may not apply to you….

 

[Chef23]

@vgolfman thanks for contributing here. I always pick up some knowledge bombs when you share your knowledge with us.

 

[amarkabove]

Threads like this are why this place is great. So much good information presented simply and understandably.

 

[mancest]

Thanks @vgolfman I knew you would have the answers!

 

[Iceman!]

Lie angle obviously matters, but mainly for start line and side spin. If the ball is starting a little right and/or has too much cut spin, go more upright. If the ball starts too far left and/or too much hook spin, go more flat. This is true for drivers and all golf clubs.

For drivers and drivers only, since there should be no ground contact, REALLY don't worry about the lie angle number itself, just how it affects ball flight. For all other clubs (fairways, hybrids, irons and wedges), there is a feel factor that should be considered as well, though I would argue ball flight is still more important. Even for fairways, hybrids, irons and wedges on full shots, the ball is gone (or at least should be) before the club head/sole contacts the ground. So, lie angle and the sole design can affect how the club feels upon ground impact and how it cuts through the turf, but I would take slightly toe deep (or heel heavy) divots that still feel good/OK with an optimal, straight ball flight over perfectly square divots and a flawed ball flight every time.

Still, sole design certainly matters on specialty shots (out of the rough, 30-50 pitch shots, out of sand bunkers, etc. for irons/wedges and more subtle but critical aspects of the bottom of fairways and hybrids)) and the type of turf (hard or soft especially) should be factored into a fitting, but ball flight is what matters most, especially for driver that isn't contacting the ground during a swing. If the bounce/sole design of a non-driver is truly terrible for your delivery (i.e. digs and takes really deep divots or bounces causing quality of contact issues) then a different head should be looked at as lie angle changes likely can't overcome that.

When I bought my Great Big Bertha Driver, I knew that it was Draw Bias and with someone that hits a draw already, I know that could be a recipe for some long rounds and because the GBB Driver is offered with a Flat COG to simmer that Draw, that is how I ordered it.
That Flat COG took a good portion of the draw out of my drives, now I get those High Baby Draws that look so nice standing behind the tee.

 

[MSEASU]

I find driver lie to be quite important.

And while I agree with the conventional thinking of flat provides slight fade bias and upright supports a slight draw bias, I’ve discovered this isn’t written in stone. I’ve noticed that I tend to essentially overreact to seeing a flat club and will often hook it. While I’ll hold more with upright clubs. I’ve also noticed that with upright clubs, it pulls my strike location off the toe (my tendency). Flat lies tend to make me strike more toe side.

This just drives home the idea of fitting and experimentation. The conventional “rules” may not apply to you….

Gotta try this. My miss is slight toe and I’m set at flat.

 

[Pharaoh]

V man dropping in with some awesome insight

 

[DNice26]

Gotta try this. My miss is slight toe and I’m set at flat.

Def try it, it may pull in your strike location, more centered.

Funny how good players can, at times, react to what they see.

Def drives home the value of a great fitting.
Even then, most fitters dont fit every club for lie angle…personally, I like to, for example play my wedges a smidge more flat than everything and my long irons a smidge more upright.