Making A Murderer (Spoilers)

I have MANY more concerns about Dassey's case than Avery's. His confession was much less coerced than depicted in the show, but it still is inconsistent, and someone with that level of intelligence can definitely sometimes say things just to make the interviewer happy. I do think he was very much involved with the disposal of the body, reading the confession he was pretty consistent on that part, however I am very unsure of his involvement past that.
 
The hardest part about the Avery case, for me, is utilizing common sense. If he did in fact kill her, common sense would have included not driving her around in her car while she was bleeding (or dead) in the trunk.

Common sense suggests they would have found the key on first search. Common sense would anticipate her DNA on the key.
Common sense would have her DNA elsewhere in the garage if a bullet fragment with her DNA was found in there. Common sense would suggest that bullet fragment would be found in the first search.

The blood is damning in the car, but you add doubt when a vial of his blood shows it being tampered with and re-taped. Can you absolutely confirm blood was removed? No. Can you confirm it wasn't?
The blood in the car is pretty damning, although bizarre. But the only thing that suggests the blood was tampered with was that the tape had been cut through, and not resealed and properly labeled. I don't think anything can put a shadow of a doubt to the blood other than a more accurate EDTA testing method.
 
Common sense would say not to murder someone. After that step is taken, I figure common sense for everything else goes on the window.
 
With all the focus on Steven, what about Brendan?
Do you believe he should be convicted? Should he receive a new trial?
Do you have problems with his confessions?
Do you feel he recieved adequate counsel?
Was he treated as a normal person by investigators, and do you feel this was just?

As I said before. The handling of his case was shockingly inept by all involved and absolutely he should have received a new trial, and 1 where the confession was not admissible.
 
I dont remember exactly, but did Steven or Brendan ever agree to take a polygraph?
 
Have you watched the series? The investigators (during the trial) claim to have reviewed every piece of anything in the garage. They found Avery's DNA exclusively.

This is also another nice sample of selectively believing the Dassey testimony. If his comments are to believed, why only some of them? Is there still value in his confession if a majority of it can not be proven (bedroom raping/bounding/etc)?

I believe I am on episode 7, not sure if I'll finish it or not. That makes sense, but if she was shot on the floor or near a wall, and her blood was in that area, it would not be nearly as difficult to clean up that area as Dexter makes it seem.

And like I said in the follow up post, Dassey's testimony is very questionable. But when he is consistent on the bleach, and they found the pants he was wearing, it makes it much more believable.

I've seen you personally comment about criminals on the street. If they had to have the level of phyiscal evidence you are searching for to lock someone away, our Prisons would be pretty empty. His DNA was found in her car, her car was found on his property, her belongings were found burned outside his house, her remains were found in his yard, a bullet from his gun over his bed with her dna was found in his garage. Her car key with his dna was found in his house. And you're concern is there is not enough physical evidence? I question whether the key was planted, but it still had his DNA on it. I guess it's possible (but highly unlikely) the blood was planted in the car, but what about the touch dna under the hood? I have no idea how they would have planted the burned remainings under ground in his burn pile (that he was seen covering up that night). No one noticed them digging up the burn pile, inserting remains among the other burned items, and then covering it back up? Do I believe it is possible members of the sheriff's office should be in prison right next to Avery for evidence tampering trying to make the evidence stronger, yes. Do I believe it is possible he is innocent, nope.

What happened exactly? Did the sheriff's office murder this random individual in order to frame him? You talk about common sense, what is the common sense alternative?
 
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I am only about 30 minutes from where it happened. it is crazy what the locals are doing here.
 
Brendan asked to, but no test was administered, I don't think Steven took one.

I feel like that investigator (dont get me started on him) took 1 of Brendan but results were inconclusive or something. They are not always reliable and often not admitted at trial, and a lot of times if you hire one they will give you the result you want to hear. But if he went and took and passed an FBI polygraph, that would be pretty amazing.
 
Another element to consider... How is it possible that while sweat elements and blood smears from Avery are present in the Rav4, not a single fingerprint was confirmed?

Spoiler
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If he were wearing some sort of glove, and that much blood from the cut on his hand was present, it would have to smear much wider than that based on over-saturating the glove, would it not?
 
I believe I am on episode 7, not sure if I'll finish it or not. That makes sense, but if she was shot on the floor or near a wall, and her blood was in that area, it would not be nearly as difficult to clean up that area as Dexter makes it seem.

And like I said in the follow up post, Dassey's testimony is very questionable. But when he is consistent on the bleach, and they found the pants he was wearing, it makes it much more believable.

I've seen you personally rant and rave about criminals on the street. If they had to have the level of phyiscal evidence you are searching for to lock someone away, our Prisons would be pretty empty. His DNA was found in her car, her car was found on his property, her belongings were found burned outside his house, her remains were found in his yard, a bullet from his gun over his bed with her dna was found in his garage. Her car key with his dna was found in his house. And you're concern is there is not enough physical evidence? I question whether the key was planted, but it still had his DNA on it. I guess it's possible (but highly unlikely) the blood was planted in the car, but what about the touch dna under the hood? I have no idea how they would have planted the burned remainings under ground in his burn pile (that he was seen covering up that night). No one noticed them digging up the burn pile, inserting remains among the other burned items, and then covering it back up? Do I believe it is possible members of the sheriff's office should be in prison right next to Avery for evidence tampering trying to make the evidence stronger, yes. Do I believe it is possible he is innocent, nope.

What happened exactly? Did the sheriff's office murder this random individual in order to frame him? You talk about common sense, what is the common sense alternative?
Without that evidence doesnt that make it impossible to convict without a reasonable doubt?
 
I've seen you personally rant and rave about criminals on the street. If they had to have the level of phyiscal evidence you are searching for to lock someone away, our Prisons would be pretty empty

For what it's worth, I've really enjoyed this conversation and it's compelling, but I'll probably ignore you if you try and make this about me or how I post on THP.

And for what it's worth, pretty empty? Yeah right. 47% of the US Prison population is for a violent crime, including "murder, manslaughter, non-negligent manslaughter, rape, other sexual assault, robbery, assault, and other violent crimes."

So much for empty.
 
Another element to consider... How is it possible that while sweat elements and blood smears from Avery are present in the Rav4, not a single fingerprint was confirmed?

Spoiler
r8KbMIe.jpg


If he were wearing some sort of glove, and that much blood from the cut on his hand was present, it would have to smear much wider than that based on over-saturating the glove, would it not?

I processed probably around 100 vehicle burglaries in my time, some of which we KNEW the suspects weren't wearing gloves, it was not uncommon to find NO fingerprints using traditional finger print powder. Once again, retrieving finger pritns aren't as cut and dry as shown on tv. Just because you touch something doesn't mean a usable finger print will be left behind. There are methods that work better like super gluing the vehicle and using pastes and gels. I have no idea if these were done, but once you process the vehicle with powder it may be too late to use the other methods.
 
Without that evidence doesnt that make it impossible to convict without a reasonable doubt?

Not sure what you are asking, are you asking if its impossible to convict without every possible piece of physical evidence being in place? Absolutely not, this case had MUCH more physical evidence than your average case.

For what it's worth, I've really enjoyed this conversation and it's compelling, but I'll probably ignore you if you try and make this about me or how I post on THP.

And for what it's worth, pretty empty? Yeah right. 47% of the US Prison population is for a violent crime, including "murder, manslaughter, non-negligent manslaughter, rape, other sexual assault, robbery, assault, and other violent crimes."

So much for empty.

Sorry buddy, wasn't trying to make it personal. Just trying to illustrate how much evidence you were looking for, it doesn't exist in most cases. And I'm aware how crowded the prisons are, very few cases have as much physical evidence as you are searching for.
 
How did Avery's DNA (via sweat, not blood) get under the hood latch of her car?
 
And for what it's worth Polygraphs are very unreliable, and not used in court for a reason. I've taken multiple polygraphs, and have been told I was telling lies when I wasn't, and been deceitful and not had it flag it.

I had a polygraph say I was showing deceit when I said I was in a criminal gang. I felt that was funny.
 
I feel like I need to send Wake a coke. I don't want him to set his gang on me.
 
Sorry buddy, wasn't trying to make it personal. Just trying to illustrate how much evidence you were looking for, it doesn't exist in most cases. And I'm aware how crowded the prisons are, very few cases have as much physical evidence as you are searching for.

It's cool. I guess I read it negatively.

I think the problem I have with this particular case is a combination of the history that Manitowoc has with Avery, the delayed findings during later searches (the key), and the blood vial showing clear signs of no longer being sealed.

It just leaves doubt. I can't help it.
 
And for what it's worth Polygraphs are very unreliable, and not used in court for a reason. I've taken multiple polygraphs, and have been told I was telling lies when I wasn't, and been deceitful and not had it flag it.

I had a polygraph say I was showing deceit when I said I was in a criminal gang. I felt that was funny.

Agreed they certainly can be. Would have been interesting to hear about it in this case though, no matter what it would have shown.
 
I finished the series yesterday. I'm not an expert on DNA, so my question is: The blood and sweat samples they found, could they be from a member of Steve's family, like a brother? I do think the evidence was planted, just not by the police. That the key had none of her DNA, none of her DNA found in the house, garage, the handcuffs, etc. makes me smh.

How did Avery's DNA (via sweat, not blood) get under the hood latch of her car?

I'll ask my question again
 
It's cool. I guess I read it negatively.

I think the problem I have with this particular case is a combination of the history that Manitowoc has with Avery, the delayed findings during later searches (the key), and the blood vial showing clear signs of no longer being sealed.

It just leaves doubt. I can't help it.
To be fair, the box that the vial was in potentially showed tampering, while the vial itself had no evidence of said tampering. Other than that, I'm picking up what you're putting down. The evidence is damning (key, blood, bullet, and confession) it's just the way every piece of evidence seemed to be doctored with or 'planted' or coerced that leaves mind questioning the outcome
 
I'll ask my question again

I'm not sure how much it matters, but blood DNA and sweat DNA are slightly different in how they are tested.
 
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