Making A Murderer (Spoilers)
Presented where? In trial or in the TV show?
Based on everything the documentary showed and what I've read online
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The documentary did not show you all the evidence presented against Avery during the trial. The producers admitted as much.
I get that, but the defense also allowed them to tell/present their side and they declined.
Luckily with a little searching you can pretty much find the prosecutions side/story and make an educated decision.
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I work in the industry, I have also reviewed the type of evidence not shown to the tv audience, very compelling stuff actually. By the way, it's the prosecutions job to put on the case, which they did, and the producer did not show you everything. A disservice imo.
Making A Murderer (Spoilers)
And IMO it's the defenses job to create reasonable doubt and they did. As I've said before I'm not arguing that he did or didn't do it, but based on everything I've seen and read on both sides, no way could I return a guilty verdict
And IMO it's the defenses job to create reasonable doubt and they did. As I've said before I'm not arguing that he did or didn't do it, but based on everything I've seen and read on both sides, no way could I return a guilty verdict
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A decade later, you believe there is reasonable doubt, after watching a highly produced television series. (not a documentary) But the defense did not, at the time of the verdict, create reasonable doubt in the mind of the 12 juriors. By the law, there was no reasonable doubt.
I am biased in this case, I live(d) a county over from where the trial took place. I heard daily updates of the evidence as it was presented.
In my opinion, Steven Avery wasn't railroaded, he wasn't framed and he certainly is not the victim. He killed and burned a 25 year old woman. The jury agreed.
And that's your opinion which I respect. I get this is a touchy subject for the locals and there is bias, but I stand by my statement. I'm not sure he did or didn't do it, but no way I could convict base on what I've seen and read from both sides
ASN21
#TeamTaylorMade
Exactly how I feel.
Thechosen1
#Thistagwilltravel
Fully agreed.
Sweethebs
Active member
I was living in Madison, Wisconsin at the time as well and it was probably the easiest open and shut case I have ever seen. It goes to show how much we are flyover country when no one seems to have heard of or remember this case. I am waiting for the documentary about Chai Vang and how he was railroaded. (Another big case in Wisconsin)
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greggdrews
Active member
I thought the show started out interesting but after they announced his murder verdict I stopped watching. After they messed up so bad the first time I really wanted to see everyone involved get convicted for framing him in the second trial.
- Moderator
- #189
I'm only a few episodes into the series, and have spoiled the ending because they were dragging it out to much - AKA I went the google route + read this entire thread.
There are so many holes in what I've read so far, it's brutal. The key magically appearing days later is an obvious starting point, where any sensible person can acknowledge that plain sight items like a freaking key to the missing car would not be missed laying there for all to see. That it was found by the very group that sought to incriminate him 20 years earlier compounds that issue.
That no DNA from Halbach was found in the bedroom where the confession claimed he assaulted and beat her provides plenty of reasonable doubt. That Dassey couldn't remember without the police suggesting it that Avery shot her in the head suggests the kid didn't know what the hell he was talking about... and the add on footage in the interview where mom comes in and he flat out says they got to his head provides more than enough doubt as well.
This isn't about whether Avery is a dirtbag, and this isn't about the unfortunate death of Halbach... It's about a legal system we're supposed to trust failing at every avenue purely because those who sought to incriminate held the power and controlled many of the situations leading up to convictions in both cases against Avery.
They picked a good time to include a call between Avery and Jodi where he said that they should have moved away. I don't think he was smart enough to realize this after being released from jail the first time, but I'll tell you what... Any sensible human would have to know that filing a 36 million dollar lawsuit against the very (corrupt) group that dictates law in your residence paints a pretty healthy target on your back.
There are so many holes in what I've read so far, it's brutal. The key magically appearing days later is an obvious starting point, where any sensible person can acknowledge that plain sight items like a freaking key to the missing car would not be missed laying there for all to see. That it was found by the very group that sought to incriminate him 20 years earlier compounds that issue.
That no DNA from Halbach was found in the bedroom where the confession claimed he assaulted and beat her provides plenty of reasonable doubt. That Dassey couldn't remember without the police suggesting it that Avery shot her in the head suggests the kid didn't know what the hell he was talking about... and the add on footage in the interview where mom comes in and he flat out says they got to his head provides more than enough doubt as well.
This isn't about whether Avery is a dirtbag, and this isn't about the unfortunate death of Halbach... It's about a legal system we're supposed to trust failing at every avenue purely because those who sought to incriminate held the power and controlled many of the situations leading up to convictions in both cases against Avery.
They picked a good time to include a call between Avery and Jodi where he said that they should have moved away. I don't think he was smart enough to realize this after being released from jail the first time, but I'll tell you what... Any sensible human would have to know that filing a 36 million dollar lawsuit against the very (corrupt) group that dictates law in your residence paints a pretty healthy target on your back.
gr8dryv
Big Boned
I finished the series yesterday. I'm not an expert on DNA, so my question is: The blood and sweat samples they found, could they be from a member of Steve's family, like a brother? I do think the evidence was planted, just not by the police. That the key had none of her DNA, none of her DNA found in the house, garage, the handcuffs, etc. makes me smh.
Looks like Avery and his new defense team arent wasting much time. They have filed an appeal to throw out the murder convction. http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/entertainment/steven-avery-appeal-feat/
Lions81
Well-known member
Finished this last weekend. Didnt want to chime in and see spoilers until I had finished. Agree with many points already stated. It was obviously very slanted in the telling of the story. Frankly I dont know whether he did it or not, certainly based on just the series you would think there was reasonable doubt, but we don't know all the facts. I was very bothered by the fact that so many of the jurors came in for deliberation and were prepared to vote not guilty, but clearly let themselves be swayed by others and didnt stand their ground at all. Not 1. That is 1 major flaw of the jury system in my opinion.
Also, as a defense attorney myself, I was frankly more bothered by Brendan's case than Steve's. What his appointed attorney did was absolutely inexcusable and incomprehensible. I also find it very concerning that the state appeals court did not reverse his conviction based on it, and the supreme court would not hear the case. I may have to go find/read the appeals court's decision to make more sense of it because it seems like a no brainer to me.
Also, as a defense attorney myself, I was frankly more bothered by Brendan's case than Steve's. What his appointed attorney did was absolutely inexcusable and incomprehensible. I also find it very concerning that the state appeals court did not reverse his conviction based on it, and the supreme court would not hear the case. I may have to go find/read the appeals court's decision to make more sense of it because it seems like a no brainer to me.
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- #193
Just finished watching the series. Did a good job of not knowing anything going in to it and avoiding conversations and articles about it while watching. There certainly are some questions about certain things, like how if he did all the things to her that his Nephew said in that bedroom, how come there was no blood at all. Seems as if he was meticulous about cleaning all that up, he would have done the same in the car. The key showing up well after that house had been searched over and over again, and doing so in a location that seems like it would be easy to find.
The sweat part that they don't really mention in the series is interesting. That and the calls placed to her by him that day. Seems kind of strange.
In the end, I think he did it.
The sweat part that they don't really mention in the series is interesting. That and the calls placed to her by him that day. Seems kind of strange.
In the end, I think he did it.
- Moderator
- #194
The issue I have is, if he did it, did he do it the way it was presented?
- A key that ONLY had his DNA on it despite it being hers for a long time? (impossible)
- A key that was found by the department that should not have been involved, in plain sight, days after initial search (impossible)
- Zero evidence of Halbach anywhere other than the bullet fragment (impossible)
- A bullet fragment found on a much later sweep, despite the entirety of the garage already being searched (improbable)
- No blood/ANYTHING on the floor of the garage where she is believed to have been shot (impossible)
- Remains that could have easily been moved from another burn site
- Blood stains that did not test positive for EDTA yet an expert confirming that test isn't accurate in total
- Why would he put her in the back of her Rav4 and move her if he burned her right there? That makes no sense at all.
- If he had the keys to the Rav4, why was a foglight removed and placed in the trunk as though it was towed (where the hitch was)?
And then of course all the rest of it...
- In what world does a search warrant allow a property to be searched for endless number of days?
- Why is Lenk's name on EVERYTHING?!
- Why was Manitowoc involved in any aspect when Avery had an active case against them?
- Why was the vial of blood evidence tampered with?
- Why was Avery the only suspect?
- If she did in fact check her messages on 11/2, does that essentially confirm that Avery was not the last person to see her?
- Was there even a second thought as to why the older Dassey kid lied about timelines?
And so on. I think the problem here is separating what "COULD" have happened, with what could be proven. Nothing about what I've read, or what I've seen, can without a shadow of a doubt, prove that Avery killed her. The holes are massive.
- A key that ONLY had his DNA on it despite it being hers for a long time? (impossible)
- A key that was found by the department that should not have been involved, in plain sight, days after initial search (impossible)
- Zero evidence of Halbach anywhere other than the bullet fragment (impossible)
- A bullet fragment found on a much later sweep, despite the entirety of the garage already being searched (improbable)
- No blood/ANYTHING on the floor of the garage where she is believed to have been shot (impossible)
- Remains that could have easily been moved from another burn site
- Blood stains that did not test positive for EDTA yet an expert confirming that test isn't accurate in total
- Why would he put her in the back of her Rav4 and move her if he burned her right there? That makes no sense at all.
- If he had the keys to the Rav4, why was a foglight removed and placed in the trunk as though it was towed (where the hitch was)?
And then of course all the rest of it...
- In what world does a search warrant allow a property to be searched for endless number of days?
- Why is Lenk's name on EVERYTHING?!
- Why was Manitowoc involved in any aspect when Avery had an active case against them?
- Why was the vial of blood evidence tampered with?
- Why was Avery the only suspect?
- If she did in fact check her messages on 11/2, does that essentially confirm that Avery was not the last person to see her?
- Was there even a second thought as to why the older Dassey kid lied about timelines?
And so on. I think the problem here is separating what "COULD" have happened, with what could be proven. Nothing about what I've read, or what I've seen, can without a shadow of a doubt, prove that Avery killed her. The holes are massive.
mikedean441
6X HOF
sounds like I need to check this out
Lions81
Well-known member
All good points.
I agree and dont forget the story that Dassey "told" could not have happened the way he said it did. Its impossible
He did it... Don't think so hard about it. (i mostly kid). The evidence could be troubling, but time and time again, this was a one sided presentation,with alot of evidence not shown in this series/video/documentary.
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- #200
Alright. You can tell me without a shadow of a doubt that he DID kill her? I must be missing something.
In my kitchen, there are two pieces of bread missing, a knife with peanut butter on it in the sink, and the toaster is still a bit warm. Can you, without a shadow of a doubt, confirm that I had toast with peanut butter on it for breakfast? My wife is also at home, and claims to have been upstairs since last night.
Here are the facts:
1 - I love me some peanut butter
2 - I don't usually eat much for breakfast
3 - I have a history with the toaster
4 - My DNA is everywhere