Malaska Golf - Swing Coach

[DataDude]

No. I'm saying the start of the swing. Not the downswing.

Thats why I was asking Tadashi to clarify whether he meant the downswing and not the start of the swing.

I actually start with a push of my left foot into left hip into right shoulder, everything goes back from the ground up and ends with the weight of the clubhead pushing my left thumb down gently, then I push everything back through from my right foot.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I just watched a new Mike Malaska video:

Malaska Golf // Pitching Lesson: Building Your Golf Swing with LPGA Pro Giulia Sergas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE-KcPNkoZI


There is some great visual information in this video - especially regarding the "Feel isn't real" idea of how our eyes trick us because of how we are positioned during a golf swing.

His training is always really good because it's simple. I especially like the 10:40 mark in the video where he talks about a guy who quit golf, then came back for a lesson, and started hitting perfect 7 irons. Then the guy started asking "well what about this or that?" and Malaska responded "what about what?". A scratch player I know during a discussion yesterday said he can't teach golf worth a crap because he just "does" his swing.

 

[Grins]

His training is always really good because it's simple. I especially like the 10:40 mark in the video where he talks about a guy who quit golf, then came back for a lesson, and started hitting perfect 7 irons. Then the guy started asking "well what about this or that?" and Malaska responded "what about what?". A scratch player I know during a discussion yesterday said he can't teach golf worth a crap because he just "does" his swing.

Haha! I picked that out as a highlight in the Breaking 100 thread: Here were my thoughts:


1) (0:56): “Feel like you’re putting your right arm right into the back of the ball.” A good visual for pitch shots and for ingraining Malaska’s idea for how the right wrist works through impact. As soon as I can get to an indoor sim or the weather gets nice enough, I want to work on this.

2) (2:30) “Seeing” what impact looks like: “To hit a ball, the handle has to appear a lot farther forward than it actually is.” In reality, at impact the shaft lean is not severe; the handle is only slightly forward of the ball from a face-on point of view. but from the perspective of the golfer at address/impact, the handle (and the hands) look much farther forward. A lot of current golf instruction points out that “Feel isn’t real,” and I agree, but this makes it crystal clear why perception isn’t reality when you’re in the middle of a golf swing. I think this should give more golfers the patience to be willing to re-train their eyes/body to become more comfortable with directions that seem “off” at first.

3) (5:10) “We’re training the eyes to see the proper path”: I can’t wait to do this drill! I have usually struggled with alignment on all sorts of shots. When I saw this, I had the same kind of reaction that Guilia expressed out loud lol! I remembered how long it took me to train my eyes & brain to see the correct line/alignment on my putts – I spent several months doing pretty much daily drills (5 minutes at a time, but a lot of times) until lining myself up felt natural and automatic. Yet I never once thought “Gee, maybe I should do the same thing for my full swing.” Now I understand why it's been such a struggle for me to get myself aimed correctly - even with wedges. Maybe this isn’t as big a deal for other golfers, but I think it’s going to really help me increase my accuracy on approach shots.

4) (8:00) A more natural way to feel what impact position is. I love how easy it feels to get into a decent impact position.

5) (10:20) “…But what about my…?” Not exactly a drill; more of a reminder that for beginning/struggling golfers, it’s better to follow the “K.I.S.S.” approach. Don’t overclutter your mind with a bunch of ideas. I think it’s really easy for me to go down a rabbit hole chasing after all these different technical thoughts. I need to work on a few fundamentals & practice making center-of-face contact with an athletic swing (maybe slowly, and with small swings at first, but building up to full swing/full speed)


6) (12:15) “This picture is the worst picture in the history of golf. That’s ruined more golfers than any picture that’s ever been out there.” As Guilia says, “[The golf swing] is a motion, not a picture.” Trying to “build” a golf swing by getting into a static position is not very helpful. I have been guilty of this in the past.

7) (12:50) The “holding the fingers” drill: I don’t know if this is an actual drill, but I liked the visual look of it, & I imagine it would be a good way to feel the correct right hand movement during the downswing.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Haha! I picked that out as a highlight in the Breaking 100 thread: Here were my thoughts:


1) (0:56): “Feel like you’re putting your right arm right into the back of the ball.” A good visual for pitch shots and for ingraining Malaska’s idea for how the right wrist works through impact. As soon as I can get to an indoor sim or the weather gets nice enough, I want to work on this.

2) (2:30) “Seeing” what impact looks like: “To hit a ball, the handle has to appear a lot farther forward than it actually is.” In reality, at impact the shaft lean is not severe; the handle is only slightly forward of the ball from a face-on point of view. but from the perspective of the golfer at address/impact, the handle (and the hands) look much farther forward. A lot of current golf instruction points out that “Feel isn’t real,” and I agree, but this makes it crystal clear why perception isn’t reality when you’re in the middle of a golf swing. I think this should give more golfers the patience to be willing to re-train their eyes/body to become more comfortable with directions that seem “off” at first.

3) (5:10) “We’re training the eyes to see the proper path”: I can’t wait to do this drill! I have usually struggled with alignment on all sorts of shots. When I saw this, I had the same kind of reaction that Guilia expressed out loud lol! I remembered how long it took me to train my eyes & brain to see the correct line/alignment on my putts – I spent several months doing pretty much daily drills (5 minutes at a time, but a lot of times) until lining myself up felt natural and automatic. Yet I never once thought “Gee, maybe I should do the same thing for my full swing.” Now I understand why it's been such a struggle for me to get myself aimed correctly - even with wedges. Maybe this isn’t as big a deal for other golfers, but I think it’s going to really help me increase my accuracy on approach shots.

4) (8:00) A more natural way to feel what impact position is. I love how easy it feels to get into a decent impact position.

5) (10:20) “…But what about my…?” Not exactly a drill; more of a reminder that for beginning/struggling golfers, it’s better to follow the “K.I.S.S.” approach. Don’t overclutter your mind with a bunch of ideas. I think it’s really easy for me to go down a rabbit hole chasing after all these different technical thoughts. I need to work on a few fundamentals & practice making center-of-face contact with an athletic swing (maybe slowly, and with small swings at first, but building up to full swing/full speed)


6) (12:15) “This picture is the worst picture in the history of golf. That’s ruined more golfers than any picture that’s ever been out there.” As Guilia says, “[The golf swing] is a motion, not a picture.” Trying to “build” a golf swing by getting into a static position is not very helpful. I have been guilty of this in the past.

7) (12:50) The “holding the fingers” drill: I don’t know if this is an actual drill, but I liked the visual look of it, & I imagine it would be a good way to feel the correct right hand movement during the downswing.

“This picture is the worst picture in the history of golf". I actually stopped the video and did a morning tequila shooter! It's so true. I have seen more people fix things that aren't broken...me included. It's because bad instruction promotes over-analysis. I took a lesson from a pro and he had my swing on an iPad vs. Tigers. Then I said let's look at YOUR swing vs. Tiger's. Not even close. So how could he possibly teach Tiger's swing, and next, why would he think I could do what he can't? I really think what happens is when we get a decent tempo, sequence, it starts to feel "too easy", and our brains start to analyze "why" it's "too easy".

See this other Malaska video where he uses a tennis racket. The guy is a genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCRsU7OAJqg

 

[Grins]

I just appreciate his explanations, they make sense to me.

Plus he has the tone of voice that seems patient, but with a hint of sarcasm (or frustration at explaining this stuff over & over to people like me lol!)

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

He explains cause and effect very well. And it's easy to tell that he gets annoyed with crap golf instruction that actually ruins the experience for many, and just keeps the scratch golfers from having more competition.

 

[TonyB]

I have been going through a very bad stretch the last couple of months and seriously thought about hanging it up. I played a tournament a few weeks ago and shot a 116, it was embarrassing and really pissed me off. I had so many swing thoughts from my instructor going through my head that I could not execute the swing.

I had paid for a year membership to Malaska Golf early last year and had played my best golf after joining his site. I went back and watched some of the training and took it to the course basically playing using the L to L drill swing. My only swing thought was L to L and I shot my best round in months. I've since shot 4 rounds, all in the 80's. I got a email yesterday about renewal date coming up so I did it.

I really enjoyed the lessons with my Club Pro but I ended up with Paralysis by Analysis standing over the ball and it was ruining Golf for me. If anything I may take some short game lessons from him but for full swing, I'm all in with Malaska.

The video that was posted is actually the final video from a series of 6 Player Lessons with her on his site.

 

[MrPink]

Hey everyone! This is my first post here. I've been following some of Malaska's instruction and had some questions. Google brought me to this thread so I thought I'd sign up and ask you guys. Hopefully this thread isn't too old now, let me know if I should post somewhere else.

I spent some time on the range yesterday doing the L-to-L drill and hitting shots. At first it was nothing but pull hooks, then I worked in some feels from the split grip drills and started producing some nice baby draws right at my target.

My question is some of what Mike teaches don't really jive with what I'm understanding. The L-to-L drill + split drill for me causes a really powerful *snap* at the bottom of the swing where it feels like the right arm rolls over the left. When I'm hitting the nice draw mentioned before it almost feels like I'm rubbing the far, right side of the ball with my hand... kind of like rolling a big right to left curve with a bowling ball. This was working really well during the range session but I can't help but feel like I was just grooving some swing timing that'll be hard to be consistent with. Maybe I'm overcooking it?

Now, in other videos I've seen Mike talk about how the right hand simply kind of "spanks" the ball, wrist extension to flexion. He conveys that's much simpler and you don't need to worry about rotating your arms. Also in his swing level drill there's no kind of arm rotation. He talks about the club face staying square to the swing path arc for much longer and eliminating that rotation through the strike zone, "it's so easy to control the club face it's stupid". All of this sounds simplified and easier to execute, what I'd like to work toward. But it doesn't jive with the snappy feel I'm getting from L-to-L + split grip drill.

Can any Malaska students here see where I might be going wrong?

 

[-CRW-]

It's hard to say without seeing your actual full swing on video. The split drill is more to get your right/rear shoulder down and through the swing as opposed to letting your right/rear shoulder turning up out of the shot.

If you have to roll your hands through the L-to-L drill, it may be that your grip is too weak. If so, the rolling keeps you from hitting push/blocks out to the right. I would try to find a grip that allows you to just move the wrist as Malaska suggests without having to thing about anything else. His entire concept is about making the golf swing as simple as possible.

 

[WILDTHING]

If Mike Malaska's instruction helps certain golfers , then that's a good thing but it may not suit everyone.

The confusing thing for me is he describes 'feel' drills which he thinks will make golfers swing correctly when they do it at full speed.

If you look at Malaska's own swing , it looks just like a standard swing and I can't see the 'Malaska Move'.





The Malaska move in the bottom row of images looks completely at odds with his own real swing above . Look at how open his clubface is in image 2 (top row) compared to how closed it is in image 3 (bottom row)

I'm assuming the 'Malaska Move' is as per quoted below:

"where the right palm gets on top of the club handle and where the clubshaft moves over the hands."

 

[-CRW-]

The Malaska move is just a feel and not something unique to his instruction. Brian Manzella teaches the same thing. It’s applying positive beta torque (a forward tumble) of the club shaft to resist the club so that it doesn’t get stuck behind you. Not everyone needs to work on that. If you start too flat and then steepen the plane at the starting of the downswing by pulling the handle, the tumble is only going to throw the shaft further off plane and result in an overly leftward path.

If you start flat and stay flat or shallow too much at the top of the backswing you’ll hit big push/block shots. The tumble would help with this swing fault.

 

[WILDTHING]

The Malaska move is just a feel and not something unique to his instruction. Brian Manzella teaches the same thing. It’s applying positive beta torque (a forward tumble) of the club shaft to resist the club so that it doesn’t get stuck behind you. Not everyone needs to work on that. If you start too flat and then steepen the plane at the starting of the downswing by pulling the handle, the tumble is only going to throw the shaft further off plane and result in an overly leftward path.

If you start flat and stay flat or shallow too much at the top of the backswing you’ll hit big push/block shots. The tumble would help with this swing fault.

So your saying that the positive beta torque that BM and Mike Malaska are advocating really applies to golfers who have trouble keeping the club 'On Plane' (ie. lowest end of club relative to ground tracing ball-target line)? That they are tracing a line beyond the ball-target line (ie. too flat)?

Why don't those same golfers just support the club with their right arm/hand to keep the club 'On Plane' ? Wouldn't that be an easier fix by stopping the club shallowing out too much? It would be a 'bracing' positive beta torque.

 

[MrPink]

WILDTHING you've prompted me to take a close look at Mike's own swing in slow mo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50SQxDysLQ

Based on what I'm seeing in his swing I'm thinking definitely on the right track even though my feels are different than the feels Mike describes. I don't see him "spanking" the ball in the way that I imagined that he described.

-CRW- I've been working on a stronger lead hand grip, 2 to 3 knuckles, I don't know if I could go much stronger. But to clarify the snap I'm feeling at the bottom is happening on it's own, I'm not thinking about my hands there or forcing it. But I have noticed I've been hitting my best shots lately when I think about where I want my hands at the finish on the follow through.

 

[-CRW-]

So your saying that the positive beta torque that BM and Mike Malaska are advocating really applies to golfers who have trouble keeping the club 'On Plane' (ie. lowest end of club relative to ground tracing ball-target line)? That they are tracing a line beyond the ball-target line (ie. too flat)?

Why don't those same golfers just support the club with their right arm/hand to keep the club 'On Plane' ? Wouldn't that be an easier fix by stopping the club shallowing out too much? It would be a 'bracing' positive beta torque.

Any of these thoughts/feelings are easy to overdo. So maybe it would help some, but maybe not others. There is no guarantee that your thought would be easier for everyone.

 

[WILDTHING]

WILDTHING you've prompted me to take a close look at Mike's own swing in slow mo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50SQxDysLQ

Based on what I'm seeing in his swing I'm thinking definitely on the right track even though my feels are different than the feels Mike describes. I don't see him "spanking" the ball in the way that I imagined that he described.

-CRW- I've been working on a stronger lead hand grip, 2 to 3 knuckles, I don't know if I could go much stronger. But to clarify the snap I'm feeling at the bottom is happening on it's own, I'm not thinking about my hands there or forcing it. But I have noticed I've been hitting my best shots lately when I think about where I want my hands at the finish on the follow through.

Many PGA pro golfers have a flat left wrist through impact when they adopt a neutral grip. If they have a strong grip their 'flat' wrist will 'visually look a bit more cupped' through impact but that doesn't mean its extended or going from flexion to extension through impact (ie. slapping). Many golfers also have a bit of flexion (bowed wrist) through impact , and that's because they just prefer to stabilise their wrist through impact or maybe have a bit more forward shaft lean (just a preference they might have).

Check these impact and follow-through images of Adam Scott, Justin Rose, Justin Thomas, David Toms, Henrik Stenson, Charlie Hoffman , Dustin Thomas. Do any of their lead wrists look as if they are extending through impact? It looks to me that they are keeping the clubface square to the clubpath for several inches post impact. They aren't flipping their wrists (flexion to extension) or rotating their forearms through impact . If they did , the clubshaft would have bypassed their lead arm just after impact. The fact they are keeping the clubface square to the clubpath for several inches post impact means they are doing something different from a biomechanical perspective.

 

[-CRW-]

WILDTHING - what you are missing is that these are feelings/swing thoughts. The swing happens in just over 1 second. Your brain can’t fix face to path issues in a split second. So something like Malaska’s slapping at the ball is just to get the body working in the right direction fast enough. Some people pull the handle or lean the shaft way too far forward through impact and cannot square the face without a thought like the slap. Again, it’s not for everyone, but pictures and positions (while they have their place) have no relevance to “feels/thoughts”.

 

[Grins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg2O50I90bs

I liked the latest video (Your Hands are the secret to a better game). Showing Mike making that little one-handed swing (first with RH, then with LH) seems to reinforce what guys like Adam Young (The Practice Manual) are saying too: Most important part of getting a good, repeatable swing is controlling the club face/head at impact so you can make center face strikes. I need to work on this (Might be a good project for over the winter - I could make those kind of swings indoors without too much trouble, I think)

 

[MrPink]

I wanted to follow up to my first post to this thread, post #183, just in case it may help someone else. I was experiencing hard rolling of the forearms at the bottom of the swing which didn't really jive with the slapping right wrist motion that Malaska describes. I stumbled on the another youtube instructor's video about swinging with a "passive release" that kind of flipped on the light bulb for me.


Here is that video by Cogorno, it's quite in depth:



And for reference here is a short video by Malaska on the subject:



Took this to the range today with probably less than half swings and it is a *completely* different feel for me. It'll take time to get used to.

 

[Molten]

I’ve got to watch way more from this guy. His tip to “tip the club” really saved my enjoyment of the game this weekend and cured something I was fighting with for weeks.

 

[WILDTHING]

I wanted to follow up to my first post to this thread, post #183, just in case it may help someone else. I was experiencing hard rolling of the forearms at the bottom of the swing which didn't really jive with the slapping right wrist motion that Malaska describes. I stumbled on the another youtube instructor's video about swinging with a "passive release" that kind of flipped on the light bulb for me.


Here is that video by Cogorno, it's quite in depth:



And for reference here is a short video by Malaska on the subject:



Took this to the range today with probably less than half swings and it is a *completely* different feel for me. It'll take time to get used to.

Interesting that Mike Malaksa is now promoting something called a 'Drive Hold' hand release action (where the clubface stays relatively square to the club path for at least several inches post impact). See my previous post where I showed examples of many PGA Tour players who perform that type of hand release (post impact). His previous video below seemed to promote drills to flip/roll the clubface with each arm/hand , although I understand it may help those who have not swung the club with passive wrists.



I'm not a fan of 'Malaska's Move ' although it might help 'as a correcting feel' to those who shallow the clubshaft too much in the early downswing . I'd rather learn not to shallow the clubshaft too much than add another correcting move .

I'm also not convinced about some of Eric Cogorno instruction to be honest because he doesn't understand the 'Ryke Effect' which is a 'passive ' clubface rotation release mechanism (using physics principles) for those golfers who do not employ a very strong grip.

He also mentions VJ Singh and Phil Mickelson hand release actions (excessive forearm rotation) and says it might cure a slice . Actually the timing to get the clubface square by impact needs to be perfect and the ball can have many different trajectories (not just slicing) especially if the clubface is rotated too early or too late before impact. One positive note is that he is also advocating (just like Malaska) a 'Drive Hold' hand release action where the clubface is relatively square to its path post impact (ie. minimise ROC through impact).

Not sure why he say golfers probably won't be able to 'Drive-Hold' if they have a weak grip ? Where's the proof?

The reason for having a 'pitch elbow' action (which also requires external rotation of the right humerus in the shoulder socket) is to help shallow the clubshaft on the golfers preferred downswing plane. The biomechanics involved to create the conditions for different types of Drive Hold hand/arm release actions is quite complicated and not as simplistic as Eric Cogorno's video.

 

[MrPink]

Interesting that Mike Malaksa is now promoting something called a 'Drive Hold' hand release action (where the clubface stays relatively square to the club path for at least several inches post impact). See my previous post where I showed examples of many PGA Tour players who perform that type of hand release (post impact). His previous video below seemed to promote drills to flip/roll the clubface with each arm/hand , although I understand it may help those who have not swung the club with passive wrists.

This was a source of confusion for me. You're right that things like the L-to-L drill that Malaska is a huge fan of seems to me to really promote a hard rolling over of the forearms. At least this is what I imagined the pivot was that he talks about with the hands around the right hip on the downswing. But as I keep saying in my posts here that just doesn't "jive" with so much of his other drills/instruction. But having watched a ton of his videos I would say that *overall* he preaches a "passive" style "drive hold" release and it's not something that he is just now promoting. Almost every video starts out with him effectively saying how he used to be a good player with an instinctive passive style release, instructors/conventional wisdom of his day got hold of him and told him he needed a rolling release and ruined his game, and now he's come full circle to a passive release... at least that's my take at this point. I acknowledge that I could very well have all these messages screwed up in my head at the moment.

I'm also not convinced about some of Eric Cogorno instruction to be honest because he doesn't understand the 'Ryke Effect' which is a 'passive ' clubface rotation release mechanism (using physics principles) for those golfers who do not employ a very strong grip.

Is there an instructor you like who does promotes a swing with the Ryke Effect in practice?

 

[WILDTHING]

This was a source of confusion for me. You're right that things like the L-to-L drill that Malaska is a huge fan of seems to me to really promote a hard rolling over of the forearms. At least this is what I imagined the pivot was that he talks about with the hands around the right hip on the downswing. But as I keep saying in my posts here that just doesn't "jive" with so much of his other drills/instruction. But having watched a ton of his videos I would say that *overall* he preaches a "passive" style "drive hold" release and it's not something that he is just now promoting. Almost every video starts out with him effectively saying how he used to be a good player with an instinctive passive style release, instructors/conventional wisdom of his day got hold of him and told him he needed a rolling release and ruined his game, and now he's come full circle to a passive release... at least that's my take at this point. I acknowledge that I could very well have all these messages screwed up in my head at the moment.



Is there an instructor you like who does promotes a swing with the Ryke Effect in practice?

Good question and the answer is not one. There isn't one instructor or golf scientist or biomechanics expert who has done any research using 3D or other monitoring technology to try and verify whether golfers are using the physics of the Ryke effect in their golf swing. The Ryke model shows it can be done so I'm more inclined to believe there is a passive way to square the clubface without any contraction in the forearm muscles (for especially weak-neutral grips). The Ryke effect is not evoked for golfers who use very strong grips because there is no need for them to rotate the forearms much to square the clubface by impact.

The current 3D graphs will show active supination of the lead forearm in the late downswing but they cannot differentiate whether that is due to forearm muscular effort or is a passive rotation caused by the inertia of the clubhead (ie. Ryke effect). It can be quite easily proved if someone used 'Electromyography' of the lead forearm muscles while also measuring any 'pitching' move of the lead arm.

What Eric Cogorno is demonstrating is a 'No Roll Drive-Hold hand release' using an arm release action like Charlie Hoffmann where the clubface is square to the club path for quite a distance post impact sometimes up to P8. That type of hand/arm release requires the golfer to have quite a lot of flexibility. The arm release demonstrated in the image below is where the arms and club form an 'impact triangle'.

 

[MrPink]

"No hold drive hold release" thanks! I'm guessing there's as many different names for it as there are instructors who teach it.

While I've never heard Malaska give it a name I do know he's taught the same movement patterns, eg when he talks about "swinging level" and "out and to the left"... Off the top of my head the Jack Nicklaus Jr driving lesson comes to mind.

 

[WILDTHING]

"No hold drive hold release" thanks! I'm guessing there's as many different names for it as there are instructors who teach it.

While I've never heard Malaska give it a name I do know he's taught the same movement patterns, eg when he talks about "swinging level" and "out and to the left"... Off the top of my head the Jack Nicklaus Jr driving lesson comes to mind.

Yes, it seems many different golf 'instructors/biomechanists/ golf scientists/theorists' have a variety of names and some use the same name to describe different things (its all really messy).

But Hogan actually showed the 'feel' analogy of a 'No Roll Drive-Hold' hand release (post impact) in these diagrams below (so nothing really new to be honest)

 

[WILDTHING]

I've done a calculation using physics/maths and now concluded that the RYKE effect is another red herring .

So time to discard the RYKE effect as a clubhead speed promoting phenomenon . It does help close the clubface passively but only a very small amount considering the speed of the clubhead in the late downswing.

So apologies to anyone who has tried to utilise the Ryke effect because its another false dawn in golf instruction.