Modern iron loft rant

[greenOak]

Not strike the ball better. Irons won't fix a swing issue, but they can help mitigate the difference between a good strike and a poor strike. Yes. I am saying that.

So the forgiveness in GI irons comes from the stronger loft?

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

So the forgiveness in GI irons comes from the stronger loft?

Quit trying to simplify things down to "are you saying this is the same as that".

What he's saying is, as part of a complete package of features which mitigate the difference in results between a poor strike and a good strike strong lofts are an important element. The most advantageous loft for a 7-iron with a fairway wood-like hot face and a wide sole and a large clubhead is different than the most advantageous loft for a 7-iron with a low-COR face, narrow sole and small clubhead.

Then you factor in that the big, hot 7-iron is designed to be wielded by a double-digit handicapper with all the swing flaws that entails while the smaller iron is designed to be swung by a good player (who has a different set of "bad swings" from the hacker) and you get more reasons one loft doesn't suit both 7-irons.

 

[blugold]

So the forgiveness in GI irons comes from the stronger loft?

Nope.

 

[CrashTestDummy]

Here's a good rule of thumb. Any so-called problem that could be solved by putting different numbers on the soles of each iron is not an actual problem at all.

But still the transition gapping at the bottom of the bag mainly ( wedges) and the top of the bag (hybrids or woods) can be very tough to gap and cause issues. For example, when I was looking at new iron sets, the JPX921 Hot Metal Pros have the PW 44* and GW 49*, but the JPX Forged the PW 45* and GW 50*. I currently have Vokey 52* 56* 60*. I did not want to get rid of my wedges and change lofts because I am so dialed with my yardages and short game with my wedges. Changing to different degree lofts on my wedges would mean a lot of time and effort to recalibrate yardages with my partial swings to get the yardages I want with my wedges and change my short game with different wedge lofts. So, with the JPX Forged I would have either a 2* or 7* gap from the transition to my wedges which made the gapping very off. I opted to get JPX921 Hot Metal Pros because the gap to my wedges could be 4* and all wedges and short irons would be 4* gapping. I did order the GW 1* stronger from Mizuno.

 

[JB]

But still the transition gapping at the bottom of the bag mainly ( wedges) and the top of the bag (hybrids or woods) can be very tough to gap and cause issues. For example, when I was looking at new iron sets, the JPX921 Hot Metal Pros have the PW 44* and GW 49*, but the JPX Forged the PW 45* and GW 50*. I currently have Vokey 52* 56* 60*. I did not want to get rid of my wedges and change lofts because I am so dialed with my yardages and short game with my wedges. Changing to different degree lofts on my wedges would mean a lot of time and effort to recalibrate yardages with my partial swings to get the yardages I want with my wedges and change my short game with different wedge lofts. So, with the JPX Forged I would have either a 2* or 7* gap from the transition to my wedges which made the gapping very off. I opted to get JPX921 Hot Metal Pros because the gap to my wedges could be 4* and all wedges and short irons would be 4* gapping. I did order the GW 1* stronger from Mizuno.

I have to ask. If loft is the only thing that drives distance, why would you want to buy new irons?
The irony in my quote above being one of the people that designed those irons.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

But still the transition gapping at the bottom of the bag mainly ( wedges) and the top of the bag (hybrids or woods) can be very tough to gap and cause issues. For example, when I was looking at new iron sets, the JPX921 Hot Metal Pros have the PW 44* and GW 49*, but the JPX Forged the PW 45* and GW 50*. I currently have Vokey 52* 56* 60*. I did not want to get rid of my wedges and change lofts because I am so dialed with my yardages and short game with my wedges. Changing to different degree lofts on my wedges would mean a lot of time and effort to recalibrate yardages with my partial swings to get the yardages I want with my wedges and change my short game with different wedge lofts. So, with the JPX Forged I would have either a 2* or 7* gap from the transition to my wedges which made the gapping very off. I opted to get JPX921 Hot Metal Pros because the gap to my wedges could be 4* and all wedges and short irons would be 4* gapping. I did order the GW 1* stronger from Mizuno.

Yeah but not all older "un-jacked" irons had exactly the same pitching wedge lofts. If your old set is 48 then maybe 52, 56, 60 makes since but someone with 46 or 47 degree PW might have chosen 50, 54, 58. You seem to be insisting that there's a problem with any set of irons which doesn't happen to include a 48-degree club. I had a set of Titleist DCI 990 for years with a 49-degree PW for instance so a 52-degree Vokey never made sense for me.

 

[greenOak]

Nope.

Then why are you bringing up forgiveness in a thread about loft jacking? They are independent of one another.

 

[blugold]

Then what does the forgiveness of modern irons have to do loft jacking?

I mean, that's been shared countless times in this thread by THP writers, regular forum members and an engineer who design irons.

 

[Jman]

This is a quote from a great R&D person with Mizuno Golf.

Irons today are going farther. No question about that. The skeptic would simply point to the loft numbers getting stronger, but as an engineer, there is so much more than that going on. Personally, I wouldn’t be comfortable strengthening the loft unless I’m able to counter that with other parameters to make sure the clubs hit the proper launch windows. With what we’re able to do with extreme Center of Gravity placement to lower sweet spots, we’re now able to deliver launch angles that are significantly higher than were previously achievable from a given loft. Additionally, with the added COR/ball speed that modern irons can create, additional distance is coming simply from how fast the ball repels from the face. Along with that, the faster the ball comes of, the higher it goes, allowing for further strengthening. In general we want to deliver a set of clubs in which all of the irons peak out at similar heights; high long irons and lower short irons. With the modern engineering, if we didn’t strengthen them, the sets would suffer.

Quoting this because it’s amazing.

 

[greenOak]

I have to ask. If loft is the only thing that drives distance, why would you want to buy new irons?
The irony in my quote above being one of the people that designed those irons.

Consistency of ball speed across the face, consistency of spin across the face, grooves worn out, looks better down by the ball, or simply because you like shiny new clubs? Lots of reasons besides distance to buy new clubs.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Then what does the forgiveness of modern irons have to do loft jacking?

In the end, all this back-and-forth is useless. Some people are simply convinced that if they see a different loft than they used to see on a "7" or a "P" then the only possible reason is a vast conspiracy among the companies making irons. Those people are not going to let go of their cynicism for one moment to consider the possibility that those companies a) know what they're doing and b) really are trying to build products that serve their target golfers as well as possible.

 

[Bucketsofjoy]

"This club isn't designed to fit my game, so it should not exist in the marketplace today"

SGI irons aren't made for tour pros. They're made for people who struggle with strike, getting the ball airborne, and usually distance. Maybe for these people, the SGI 7 iron and the players 5 iron don't perform the exact same? And maybe these people need more clubs between their 7 iron and 3 wood than the better player to create proper gaps? How do you want their irons numbered?

 

[JB]

Consistency of ball speed across the face, consistency of spin across the face, grooves worn out, looks better down by the ball, or simply because you like shiny new clubs? Lots of reasons besides distance to buy new clubs.

I have never said distance was the reason to buy clubs. My point was fairly simple. If loft is the only determining factor in distance or as has been altered to largest, the tech in the irons doesn't impact much at all and certainly not spin. Because spin can have a vast amount of impact on distance.

 

[Iceman!]

So happy I cranked this thread back up!

 

[Raiderboost]

So happy I cranked this thread back up!

It is helping drive the post count.

I don't really care what the loft or number on the club is, I just want to know which one I need to hit for that particular distance. If that's a 9 iron for 165 yards or an 8 iron it doesn't really matter as long as it goes 165 yards. But if I can get that with the 9 iron and get it to stop and then hit the 8 175 and get it to stop then I'm happy with that.

 

[CrashTestDummy]

Yeah but not all older "un-jacked" irons had exactly the same pitching wedge lofts. If your old set is 48 then maybe 52, 56, 60 makes since but someone with 46 or 47 degree PW might have chosen 50, 54, 58. You seem to be insisting that there's a problem with any set of irons which doesn't happen to include a 48-degree club. I had a set of Titleist DCI 990 for years with a 49-degree PW for instance so a 52-degree Vokey never made sense for me.

My opinions is just that I wished that manufacturers kept more traditional lofts in mind in relation with wedges (starting irons with 47 or 48) for a couple of reasons. Mainly, they would be more workable with the most common wedge setup (52-56-60 is by far the most common) . Then the transition to irons would be more seamless. I am not fond of bending lofts much because it changes the bounce, but 1* here or there is ok. It doesn't have to be 48, although 48 is ideal loft to start an ironset because again most common wedge setup is 52-56-60. My last three sets (Taylormade MB blades, Titleist CB, Titleist AP2) all had PW with 47. Secondly, with traditional lofts you could more easily see how the differently the design/technology makes a difference in trajectory and distance between GI irons and forged MB and CB irons.

Also, while it is annoying to have two gap wedges or two 4 irons, etc. that is not really a big deal compared to having poor gapping between your irons and wedges/hybrids/woods. Your Titleist DCI 990 have a 5-iron 28, 6-iron 32, 7-iron 36, 8-iron 40, 9-iron 44.5, PW 49. So, you could easily bent the 9-iron .5 degrees and PW 1 degree and have a 4* gap all the way up to your 5-iron. In my book, that works perfectly.

 

[tommyhaka]

So is it a foolish question to ask a playing partner what iron # iron they are playing into the green?

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

My opinions is just that I wished that manufacturers kept more traditional lofts in mind in relation with wedges (starting irons with 47 or 48) for a couple of reasons. Mainly, they would be more workable with the most common wedge setup (52-56-60 is by far the most common) . Then the transition to irons would be more seamless. I am not fond of bending lofts much because it changes the bounce, but 1* here or there is ok. It doesn't have to be 48, although 48 is ideal loft to start an ironset because again most common wedge setup is 52-56-60. My last three sets (Taylormade MB blades, Titleist CB, Titleist AP2) all had PW with 47. Secondly, with traditional lofts you could more easily see how the differently the design/technology makes a difference in trajectory and distance between GI irons and forged MB and CB irons.

Also, while it is annoying to have two gap wedges or two 4 irons, etc. that is not really a big deal compared to having poor gapping between your irons and wedges/hybrids/woods. Your Titleist DCI 990 have a 5-iron 28, 6-iron 32, 7-iron 36, 8-iron 40, 9-iron 44.5, PW 49. So, you could easily bent the 9-iron .5 degrees and PW 1 degree and have a 4* gap all the way up to your 5-iron. In my book, that works perfectly.

I always just used the DCI 990 PW along with two Vokeys, a 54 bent to 55 and and 60 bent to 61. Six degrees between wedges is no big deal when you hit the PW 100 yards, SW 86 yards and LW 72 yards (those were always my working numbers back then).

It's kind of weird. That 40-degree 8-iron was by far my favorite club in the bag all those years (although I had a lot of love for the 54 Vokey as well). Made my only ace with it, holed out several other shots with it, etc. Now with my modern jacked-loft irons I really love my 41-degree PW. For whatever reason an iron around 40-41 degrees seems to be some kind of sweet spot for my swing.

A difference at the other end, though. That 28-degree 5-iron was always a real bugger for me to try to hit straight and elevate (probably due to the DG S300 shaft) while in my modern set the 27-degree 7-iron just gets up in the air and flies straight all day long.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

So is it a foolish question to ask a playing partner what iron # iron they are playing into the green?

Unless you know his game really well, I'd say yes.

 

[JB]

(52-56-60 is by far the most common).

I’m curious where this info is from?

 

[RatFink]

I’m curious where this info is from?

Same - I have never seen a 56 in a bag in person. But I only play with misfits.

 

[JB]

Same - I have never seen a 56 in a bag in person. But I only play with misfits.

The 56 is quite common, I was genuinely curious. I reached out to a large retailer and am looking through store market share now because I don't know.

 

[OldandStiff]

Quoting this because it’s amazing.

I read it as 'forget loft, we're jacking everything because awesome, and loft either comes along for the ride or gets in the way, so it's coming.'

 

[mtbloco]

I read it as 'forget loft, we're jacking everything because awesome, and loft either comes along for the ride or gets in the way, so it's coming.'

"You mean I get more than one degree of freedom?" - very happy designer.

 

[CrashTestDummy]

I’m curious where this info is from?

Here is article about the top 100 PGA players wedge setup. There is a chart if you scroll down that breaks down the numbers of degree wedges and how many pros are using them. 52-56-60 are most popular used wedges. 80% of the top 10 players use 52-56-60. However, among amateurs I'd be the numbers are even more overwhelming 52-56-60 over any other configuration.

What Wedges Do the Pros Use? Top 100 PGA Tour Player Analysis (2023 update) - Golfing Focus

The march of golf technology has led to ever increasing numbers of specialist and highly customized clubs and when it comes to golf wedges especially that

golfingfocus.com