More Change the Ball Discussion From Jack...

Bridgestone

Dr RosenRosen

New member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
0
Location
Kirkland, WA
Handicap
8.5
But why do courses have to be longer? There was just a huge push to get golfers to move up a tee box. If we are overpowering courses, why tee it forward? Why roll anything back? If we are so darn long as a golfing populace, how come scores aren't falling? If the game needs protecting, how come there are fewer and fewer golfers?
We may be longer but that doesn't mean we're any better. We still slice and hook our drives, duff chips, 3 and 4 putt, etc. But again, I think he's thinking of it from a course designer's perspective, not a grow-the-game perspective. He wants to see courses played how the course designers intended.

"Protecting the game" is not the same as growing the game. I think golf, like baseball, runs into this issue all the time.
 

blugold

Autobots, roll out!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
49,434
Reaction score
179
Location
Appleton, WI
Handicap
12 or so.
We may be longer but that doesn't mean we're any better. We still slice and hook our drives, duff chips, 3 and 4 putt, etc. But again, I think he's thinking of it from a course designer's perspective, not a grow-the-game perspective. He wants to see courses played how the course designers intended.

"Protecting the game" is not the same as growing the game. I think golf, like baseball, runs into this issue all the time.
What I don't understand, why I have to play a hole like a designer envisioned. As a course designer, he should understand that by making the game less fun, means that fewer people will play the game. Which means there will be fewer people will to pay him $3m to design courses. Protecting the game is just not a something I quite understand. I also don't get why protecting the game has anything to do with protecting the designer's vision.

Jack seems to see a problem that isn't there. He also is saying to fix his imaginary problem, he wants to alienate 99% of golfers. That is close to the definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 

Dr RosenRosen

New member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
0
Location
Kirkland, WA
Handicap
8.5
This is true. The problem is, his voice, while loud is about his profit. He has the ability to not build long courses. He chooses to ignore that and blame the manufacturers...Including his golf ball.
Why would it be about profit? I'm guessing his design fee for an 18-hole track is roughly the same whether it is 6200 yards or 7700 yards. And he gets paid every time he has to do a redesign to make courses longer. It is the golf course owners that have to pay more in land and maintenance. I think his statements are more from a "purist" motive, whether right or wrong.
 

JB

Follow @THPGolf
Albatross 2019 Club
Staff member
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
183,736
Reaction score
6,918
Location
Where the THP Tour Van Takes Us!
Why would it be about profit? I'm guessing his design fee for an 18-hole track is roughly the same whether it is 6200 yards or 7700 yards. And he gets paid every time he has to do a redesign to make courses longer. It is the golf course owners that have to pay more in land and maintenance. I think his statements are more from a "purist" motive, whether right or wrong.
Time, and the following.
As I said, he has the ability to fix it, and refuse to do courses that are longer, but won't do that, because for all of the gripes, he continues to build them. Just as the same argument could have been made 40 years ago, but he had no issue being the longest on tour and using that to his advantage. They could just as easily fix this issue by not mowing fairways so close FWIW.

I have no issue with making courses shorter. The problem I have is that the only reason that courses are considered too long is because of how far they hit it on tour and top level amateurs. Thats it. The 99.9% of golfers that continue to keep him in business and the sport going have no issue with hitting it too far. So the USGA and PGA of America and shrink every course down to 6600. They can roll the ball back for the tours and then everything is fixed.

Slows golf down at the beginning as people think they have to wait to tee off, but that corrects itself rather quickly.
 

Dr RosenRosen

New member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
0
Location
Kirkland, WA
Handicap
8.5
What I don't understand, why I have to play a hole like a designer envisioned. As a course designer, he should understand that by making the game less fun, means that fewer people will play the game. Which means there will be fewer people will to pay him $3m to design courses. Protecting the game is just not a something I quite understand. I also don't get why protecting the game has anything to do with protecting the designer's vision.

Jack seems to see a problem that isn't there. He also is saying to fix his imaginary problem, he wants to alienate 99% of golfers. That is close to the definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Would it really make it less fun for you if the ball didn't go as far presuming it was all relative? In other words, you would still be a long hitter compared to everyone else. You just wouldn't hit it as far as you used to because the ball is different.
 

blugold

Autobots, roll out!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
49,434
Reaction score
179
Location
Appleton, WI
Handicap
12 or so.
Why would it be about profit? I'm guessing his design fee for an 18-hole track is roughly the same whether it is 6200 yards or 7700 yards. And he gets paid every time he has to do a redesign to make courses longer. It is the golf course owners that have to pay more in land and maintenance. I think his statements are more from a "purist" motive, whether right or wrong.
How many courses need to be redesigned because of length? Augusta wanted to, it didn't need to.

The tendency is to let the PGA Tour dictate what happens to all of us.

Just loom at THPers. We are very avid golfers. How many of us need to play 7000+? How many need to play 6500+?
 

mattb

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
364
Reaction score
0
Location
Adel, Georgia
Handicap
14
Please scale it back or else Dustin Johnson will keep winning everything
 

blugold

Autobots, roll out!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
49,434
Reaction score
179
Location
Appleton, WI
Handicap
12 or so.
Would it really make it less fun for you if the ball didn't go as far presuming it was all relative? In other words, you would still be a long hitter compared to everyone else. You just wouldn't hit it as far as you used to because the ball is different.
Yes. I would have less fun. Has there ever been a time when time when golfers have been forced to have less distance? I can handle capping the tech. But rolling it back? That's dumb, in my simple -8.3 opinion.
 

Dr RosenRosen

New member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
0
Location
Kirkland, WA
Handicap
8.5
Yes. I would have less fun. Has there ever been a time when time when golfers have been forced to have less distance? I can handle capping the tech. But rolling it back? That's dumb, in my simple -8.3 opinion.
Please understand I don't necessarily disagree with you. My brain certainly remembers the bombs off the tee (while conveniently forgetting the (numerous) snap hooks out of bounds). At the same time, I wonder if that would quickly dissipate when I flushed a few shots with the "new" ball and I remembered how much I love the flushed feeling of a well struck golf shot. I honestly don't know.
 

blugold

Autobots, roll out!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
49,434
Reaction score
179
Location
Appleton, WI
Handicap
12 or so.
Please understand I don't necessarily disagree with you. My brain certainly remembers the bombs off the tee (while conveniently forgetting the (numerous) snap hooks out of bounds). At the same time, I wonder if that would quickly dissipate when I flushed a few shots with the "new" ball and I remembered how much I love the flushed feeling of a well struck golf shot. I honestly don't know.
Let me say this, what really grinds my gears about this, because a select few of the best golfers in the world are playing from spots at the most exclusive club in the world that guys from 50 years ago couldn't get to, I have to change the way I play in northeast Wisconsin?

Just because the longest of the best players are reaching spots that were not thought possible, we as amateurs need to have our game affected?

The USGA, and Jack Nicklaus here, want to affect me/us because of the top 1% of the 1% are really efficient, that's silly. I have no Idea why it's even being considered.
 

Golf 'N Gator

Formally HoosierGolfer
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Messages
18,842
Reaction score
41
Location
Sebring Florida
Handicap
8.9
I truly believe in time Jack will get his way and the USGA and the R&A will screw with the ball which once again will be a knee jerk reaction to a problem that is only an issue with 0.01% of the worlds golfers (tour pro's) but will have a HUGE negative effect on US that make up the other 99.9%. What do you think a ball that would take say 50 yards away from the world class players will do the games of the rest of us?

Make the game more fun? Draw more people to the game by making it harder? I'm all for a "tour only" ball, but that is it. They can change the ball like they did the groove rule and long putter rule, and I will continue to play today's ball and never ever play in another official event.

I love Jack but he is full of :poop: on this one.........
 

ArmyGolf

Rise & Grind!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
28,139
Reaction score
573
Location
British Columbia
Handicap
RCGA 7.9
Is this really an issue? Limit the ball where it's at right now is fine by me, but no need to go backwards. 75% of the Majors in 2015 were won by some of the shortest hitters on Tour.
Ball go far doesn't equal wins.
 

kensisland

Misplaced Texan
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
May 7, 2015
Messages
1,861
Reaction score
0
Location
Glendale, Az
Handicap
20.8
Let me say this, what really grinds my gears about this, because a select few of the best golfers in the world are playing from spots at the most exclusive club in the world that guys from 50 years ago couldn't get to, I have to change the way I play in northeast Wisconsin?

Just because the longest of the best players are reaching spots that were not thought possible, we as amateurs need to have our game affected?

The USGA, and Jack Nicklaus here, want to affect me/us because of the top 1% of the 1% are really efficient, that's silly. I have no Idea why it's even being considered.
What he said ...

If they alter the ball, some like myself, could not reach some fairways from the white tees????
 

blugold

Autobots, roll out!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
49,434
Reaction score
179
Location
Appleton, WI
Handicap
12 or so.
I truly believe in time Jack will get his way and the USGA and the R&A will screw with the ball which once again will be a knee jerk reaction to a problem that is only an issue with 0.01% of the worlds golfers (tour pro's) but will have a HUGE negative effect on US that make up the other 99.9%. What do you think a ball that would take say 50 yards away from the world class players will do the games of the rest of us?

Make the game more fun? Draw more people to the game by making it harder? I'm all for a "tour only" ball, but that is it. They can change the ball like they did the groove rule and long putter rule, and I will continue to play today's ball and never ever play in another official event.

I love Jack but he is full of :poop: on this one.........
I think of this idea of rolling back the ball, who does it benefit?

Course designers? Not really because 99% of golfers need to move up more than they need to move back.

The tour? Not really because the longest hitters are not winning week in and week out.

Amateurs? Nope, obvious.

Retired Tour Pros? Yup. Because then they're accomplishments won't look small by comparison.

The only people who benefit from rolling the ball back are retired tour pros that used to walk up hill both says to school.
 

JB

Follow @THPGolf
Albatross 2019 Club
Staff member
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
183,736
Reaction score
6,918
Location
Where the THP Tour Van Takes Us!
The only people who benefit from rolling the ball back are retired tour pros that used to walk up hill both says to school.

I would argue there is a lot more to it than that.
Courses benefit from less care needed.
Golfers benefit, because it will (long term) speed up play.
 

bodog

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
287
Reaction score
3
Location
north central Indiana
Handicap
9.6
I think of this idea of rolling back the ball, who does it benefit?

Course designers? Not really because 99% of golfers need to move up more than they need to move back.

The tour? Not really because the longest hitters are not winning week in and week out.

Amateurs? Nope, obvious.

Retired Tour Pros? Yup. Because then they're accomplishments won't look small by comparison.

The only people who benefit from rolling the ball back are retired tour pros that used to walk up hill both says to school.
I guess to understand your argument, I would have to know what accomplishments of old, retired, or dead pros would look small in comparison? They use to hit woods and long irons into a hole and now they hit sand wedge...ok, that seems to make the accomplishments of the old guys much larger in comparison to me?

I think this is more about golf courses and in the eyes of some, making once great courses obsolete because of the extraordinary length and height these young guys hit the ball. Yeah, the USGA will screw it up, but realistically you are the only one who cares if you hit it 270 or 310.
 

ArmyGolf

Rise & Grind!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
28,139
Reaction score
573
Location
British Columbia
Handicap
RCGA 7.9
I would argue there is a lot more to it than that.
Courses benefit from less care needed.
Golfers benefit, because it will (long term) speed up play.
I wonder what the time frame would be before the maintenance and pace of play benefits would be seen on course's bottom lines.
 

JB

Follow @THPGolf
Albatross 2019 Club
Staff member
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
183,736
Reaction score
6,918
Location
Where the THP Tour Van Takes Us!
I wonder what the time frame would be before the maintenance and pace of play benefits would be seen on course's bottom lines.
My research says about a decade for maintenance and pace of play probably similar, maybe a bit shorter.
 

blugold

Autobots, roll out!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
49,434
Reaction score
179
Location
Appleton, WI
Handicap
12 or so.
I would argue there is a lot more to it than that.
Courses benefit from less care needed.
Golfers benefit, because it will (long term) speed up play.
I didn't think of the reduced cost. But I highly doubt those savings would get passed down.
 

blugold

Autobots, roll out!
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
49,434
Reaction score
179
Location
Appleton, WI
Handicap
12 or so.
I guess to understand your argument, I would have to know what accomplishments of old, retired, or dead pros would look small in comparison? They use to hit woods and long irons into a hole and now they hit sand wedge...ok, that seems to make the accomplishments of the old guys much larger in comparison to me?

I think this is more about golf courses and in the eyes of some, making once great courses obsolete because of the extraordinary length and height these young guys hit the ball. Yeah, the USGA will screw it up, but realistically you are the only one who cares if you hit it 270 or 310.
You're right, the accomplishments don't compare to you. But Jack isn't thinking about you. He's thinking that two years ago, Bubba cut the corner on 13 (or 15 I forget), and had a wedge into the green when Jack had to hit a 4i from the top of the hill. or that 300 yard drives were reserved for the best of the best. Now, they are expected.

I am not the only one who cares about having their distances rolled back. I probably wouldn't leave the game. But I do know that rolling back the ball won't help bring golfers to the game.
 

Wake

Active member
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
37,466
Reaction score
46
Location
Brandon, Fl
Handicap
13
My research says about a decade for maintenance and pace of play probably similar, maybe a bit shorter.
I understand the maitenance savings, but how would pace of play speed up? Just because the ball wouldn't go as far into the woods or am I missing something?
 

LSMO

Well-known member
Albatross 2019 Club
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
3,282
Reaction score
37
Location
Lee's Summit, MO
Handicap
2.2
I can see both points. But as JB said grow the fairways up, get the rough up, soften the fairways and narrow up the fairwaysm put the premium on accuracy and not distance.
 

bodog

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
287
Reaction score
3
Location
north central Indiana
Handicap
9.6
You're right, the accomplishments don't compare to you. But Jack isn't thinking about you. He's thinking that two years ago, Bubba cut the corner on 13 (or 15 I forget), and had a wedge into the green when Jack had to hit a 4i from the top of the hill. or that 300 yard drives were reserved for the best of the best. Now, they are expected.

I am not the only one who cares about having their distances rolled back. I probably wouldn't leave the game. But I do know that rolling back the ball won't help bring golfers to the game.
Just to be clear, when I said YOU, I didn't really just mean YOU...it was kinda of a general you as in individual golfers.
 

JB

Follow @THPGolf
Albatross 2019 Club
Staff member
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
183,736
Reaction score
6,918
Location
Where the THP Tour Van Takes Us!
I understand the maitenance savings, but how would pace of play speed up? Just because the ball wouldn't go as far into the woods or am I missing something?
Shorter holes to distance roll back ratio. Especially on par 3s. The talk a lot of times centers around smaller green complexes as well, which increases the speed as golfers spend more time on the green than most other shots.
 

NoLine

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
8,161
Reaction score
0
Location
Dallas, TX
Handicap
28.7
More Change the Ball Discussion From Jack...

Starting following Jack on Instagram and love seeing the emotion, family, and what this week means even so far removed from the competitive days. Nothing in sports like The Masters


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Welcome to The Hackers Paradise

Don't just play golf, live it!

Register Log in
Top