Need your ruling on 2 shots

[ddstanford]

Today, my 2nd shot on a par 5 stopped 6" short of a stone retaining wall (pretty much flush with the fairway) in front of a stream running across the fairway. It was a shot I could have made, but my left foot would have been on the stone and there was some likelihood my follow through would hit the rock with my wedge. There were no red hazard markings in front of the stone (indicating no relief), so my assumption was the stone itself was the boundary of the hazard. The grass was mowed right up to the stone as if it was fairway. Do I get relief?
Scenario 2, guy hits a shot from 170 yards on the same hole and never sees the ball, there is hazard as mentioned, a creek which wraps from rt side of green around the front. Long is OB. He took relief on the green side of the creek with the idea he "probably hit on the green side and bounced in the creek" with one stroke. Theoretically, imo, the only correct solution is stroke and distance, replay the shot, since he didn't ever see where it went. Even if he didn't hit it OB, 2nd option is play from other side of the creek with 1 stroke. What say ye?

 

[Brucem609]

I believe
1. You get a drop from the stones as they were man made/placed there and obstructed your stance
2. He needs to be in far side of stream. Even though he thinks he “cleared” the hazard There is no proof it did. Unless he can pinpoint it clearing, you must still carry the hazard successfully - drop with stroke

 

[DataDude]

I believe
1. You get a drop from the stones as they were man made/placed there and obstructed your stance
2. He needs to be in far side of stream. Even though he thinks he “cleared” the hazard There is no proof it did. Unless he can pinpoint it clearing, you must still carry the hazard successfully - drop with stroke

This

 

[DG_1234]

Today, my 2nd shot on a par 5 stopped 6" short of a stone retaining wall (pretty much flush with the fairway) in front of a stream running across the fairway. It was a shot I could have made, but my left foot would have been on the stone and there was some likelihood my follow through would hit the rock with my wedge. There were no red hazard markings in front of the stone (indicating no relief), so my assumption was the stone itself was the boundary of the hazard. The grass was mowed right up to the stone as if it was fairway. Do I get relief?
Scenario 2, guy hits a shot from 170 yards on the same hole and never sees the ball, there is hazard as mentioned, a creek which wraps from rt side of green around the front. Long is OB. He took relief on the green side of the creek with the idea he "probably hit on the green side and bounced in the creek" with one stroke. Theoretically, imo, the only correct solution is stroke and distance, replay the shot, since he didn't ever see where it went. Even if he didn't hit it OB, 2nd option is play from other side of the creek with 1 stroke. What say ye?

#1 you are entitled to relief without penalty from the stone wall
#2 your opponent lost his golf ball which means replay from his original position while taking stroke and distance penalty

 

[OGputtnfool]

Today, my 2nd shot on a par 5 stopped 6" short of a stone retaining wall (pretty much flush with the fairway) in front of a stream running across the fairway. It was a shot I could have made, but my left foot would have been on the stone and there was some likelihood my follow through would hit the rock with my wedge. There were no red hazard markings in front of the stone (indicating no relief), so my assumption was the stone itself was the boundary of the hazard. The grass was mowed right up to the stone as if it was fairway. Do I get relief?
Scenario 2, guy hits a shot from 170 yards on the same hole and never sees the ball, there is hazard as mentioned, a creek which wraps from rt side of green around the front. Long is OB. He took relief on the green side of the creek with the idea he "probably hit on the green side and bounced in the creek" with one stroke. Theoretically, imo, the only correct solution is stroke and distance, replay the shot, since he didn't ever see where it went. Even if he didn't hit it OB, 2nd option is play from other side of the creek with 1 stroke. What say ye?

I agree with your assessment on #2. If you don't see it, you can't just assume it did something.

For #1, I'd have to know if there was a local rule declaring relief either way. Got any pics?

 

[OGputtnfool]

What are you guys basing the relief from the stone wall on? Just because the course put it there doesn't automatically mean you're afforded relief.

 

[DG_1234]

What are you guys basing the relief from the stone wall on? Just because the course put it there doesn't automatically mean you're afforded relief.

Relief is allowed from all man made obstructions which are not within a hazard.

 

[Flipit]

#1 you are entitled to relief without penalty from the stone wall
#2 your opponent lost his golf ball which means replay from his original position while taking stroke and distance penalty

This.
when I don’t see my ball flightt it’s usually bad. I’ll drop and re hit believing I won’t find the first Since I never saw it.

 

[OGputtnfool]

Relief is allowed from all man made obstructions which are not within a hazard.

Where's that written? Either way, that's why I said I'd want to see if there is a local rule either way. One course here has a fence guarding the #5 tee from the #4 tee shots and it's declared an immovable obstruction and relief is NOT granted. Play it as it lies.

 

[smgoldstein]

There were no red hazard markings in front of the stone

Let me preface this with I am no rules expert. That being said unless there is a local rule that entitles relief I'm not so sure one gets relief. Is the retaining wall in the hazard even though it wasn't marked?

 

[Tevenor]

What are you guys basing the relief from the stone wall on? Just because the course put it there doesn't automatically mean you're afforded relief.

I would assume rule 16.1 as a "abnormal course condition" would apply unless called out as part of the course local rules, no?

1) Meaning of Interference by Abnormal Course Condition.

Interference exists when any one of these is true:
• The player’s ball touches or is in or on an abnormal course condition,
• An abnormal course condition physically interferes with the player’s area of intended stance or area of intended swing, or
• Only when the ball is on the putting green, an abnormal course condition on or off the putting green intervenes on the line of play.

 

[OGputtnfool]

I would assume rule 16.1 as a "abnormal course condition" would apply unless called out as part of the course local rules, no?

You might be right. That's why I said I'd like to see if it's addressed in the local rules. I've seen several times where the local rules on the scorecard state that "xyz" is an integral part of the course and free relief is not granted. This seems like it might fall into that, but there's no way to know for sure without investigation.

 

[ddstanford]

Let me preface this with I am no rules expert. That being said unless there is a local rule that entitles relief I'm not so sure one gets relief. Is the retaining wall in the hazard even though it wasn't marked?

yes, but theoretically without a red boundary, the ball was not in the hazard.

 

[OGputtnfool]

yes, but theoretically without a red boundary, the ball was not in the hazard.

Yeah, this one's hard to be sure of without pics. I'm not sure I could be sure even with pics.

 

[ddstanford]

Relief is allowed from all man made obstructions which are not within a hazard.

that was my feeling and I asked a playing partner. If the red line had been "mowed out", then that is something they need to address

 

[ddstanford]

I agree with your assessment on #2. If you don't see it, you can't just assume it did something.

For #1, I'd have to know if there was a local rule declaring relief either way. Got any pics?

no pics, my fault for not hitting it as it lied, I could have done so, but have new clubs and when I asked a playing partner, he thought I should get relief, so I took a club length. Later was overturned by our pro, but there was no hazard marking which is my beef

 

[ddstanford]

I believe
1. You get a drop from the stones as they were man made/placed there and obstructed your stance
2. He needs to be in far side of stream. Even though he thinks he “cleared” the hazard There is no proof it did. Unless he can pinpoint it clearing, you must still carry the hazard successfully - drop with stroke

the only kicker is if he hit a flyer and it went OB, that would require a greater penalty. He never saw the ball's flight

 

[BigMac]

no pics, my fault for not hitting it as it lied, I could have done so, but have new clubs and when I asked a playing partner, he thought I should get relief, so I took a club length. Later was overturned by our pro, but there was no hazard marking which is my beef

What did your pro say about the stone wall? I would have agreed with others above who said if it's not within the hazard area, you get relief from it under 16.1. If it wasn't red staked/painted or it's not defined by a local rule, it's an immovable obstruction which interfered with your swing or stance (IMHO, anyway). If the pro is saying it's within the boundary of the hazard area, it needs to be marked that way and it's the course's fault if it isn't.

No big deal in a casual round, but in competition conditions I'd definitely be calling for a rules official before proceeding.

 

[OGputtnfool]

no pics, my fault for not hitting it as it lied, I could have done so, but have new clubs and when I asked a playing partner, he thought I should get relief, so I took a club length. Later was overturned by our pro, but there was no hazard marking which is my beef

Why did the pro say he overturned it?

 

[ddstanford]

Why did the pro say he overturned it?

said my ball was in the hazard, though as I said, there were no hazard stakes or lines, probably mowed out recently.

 

[Luchnia]

said my ball was in the hazard, though as I said, there were no hazard stakes or lines, probably mowed out recently.

I think I read somewhere that hazards have to be clearly marked to be determined a hazard?

 

[Pantherhawk]

said my ball was in the hazard, though as I said, there were no hazard stakes or lines, probably mowed out recently.

Did he say the BALL was in the hazard, or the WALL was in the hazard? The latter would have been my expectation. Not sure how he would have known the former without you telling him.

 

[golfinnut]

Relief is allowed from all man made obstructions which are not within a hazard.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ also "Line of Sight" relief

 

[OGputtnfool]

said my ball was in the hazard, though as I said, there were no hazard stakes or lines, probably mowed out recently.

Was the wall below the natural start of the slope down to the stream? If so, then it's in the hazard, I think.

I think I read somewhere that hazards have to be clearly marked to be determined a hazard?

Not necessarily. A stream is a hazard (penalty area) even if there are no markings or stakes. The natural boundaries of the stream are the boundaries of the hazard (penalty area).

 

[Knot Right]

#1 you are entitled to relief without penalty from the stone wall
#2 your opponent lost his golf ball which means replay from his original position while taking stroke and distance penalty

No.

Stone walls may be through the green.

It depends on the course rules.