Off-season Swing Change

[interlooper]

Hey guys. I am thinking about making a swing-change during the winter off-season. At the top of my backswing, my hands get pretty high... sorta like Nick Watney high. When it is on, it is good and powerful. When it is off, however, it can get ugly, really ugly I want to be more consistent, even on the off-days, and even if I lose a bit of power.

When looking at "simpler" swings, however, I think I can make a consistency change without losing a ton of power. In particular, I reviewed Charley Hoffman's and Gary Woodland's swing. Their hands are much lower at the top and they still generate sufficient power. I think I might try to get closer to this position at the top. Has anyone else made this change? How did it go?

 

[Nicklausfan]

I just wanna offer some quick input before I head to bed.

I made a plethora of changes this season under the watchful eye of my ocach. One of these changes was length of backswing. I was past parallel, hands relatively high and real "loosey goosey". A lot of things happen when the swing gets too long among the real bad things is timing. The timing can get out so fast that it's mind boggling. You're change may not really need a full change in the way that it's thought. However without viewing your swing you could be both high with the hands at the top and too long. I bet that if you feel like you're at 3/4... it's just right. Ultimately, I've made the change you describe and both the power and timing is there. Results are fantastic.

Alex

 

[interlooper]

I just wanna offer some quick input before I head to bed.

I made a plethora of changes this season under the watchful eye of my ocach. One of these changes was length of backswing. I was past parallel, hands relatively high and real "loosey goosey". A lot of things happen when the swing gets too long among the real bad things is timing. The timing can get out so fast that it's mind boggling. You're change may not really need a full change in the way that it's thought. However without viewing your swing you could be both high with the hands at the top and too long. I bet that if you feel like you're at 3/4... it's just right. Ultimately, I've made the change you describe and both the power and timing is there. Results are fantastic.

Alex

Thanks, man. I am not too long in the back swing; it is more of a raise with the arms through the backswing. Not necessarily atypical now, I just want more consistency. Some of it is timing, as you said, the other part is path coming down. The more you lift, the more trouble you can get into with the downswing I think. My contemplated change will take a lot of the lift out. I still should have a decent turn and perhaps even more, because I think the lift could inhibit some turn. But I'm not sure on that yet. I am going to try to make it so my left arm is more in tune with my shoulder plane, rather than above it. We will see. Hope my results are like yours.

 

[c0ncept]

Hey guys. I am thinking about making a swing-change during the winter off-season. At the top of my backswing, my hands get pretty high... sorta like Nick Watney high. When it is on, it is good and powerful. When it is off, however, it can get ugly, really ugly I want to be more consistent, even on the off-days, and even if I lose a bit of power.

When looking at "simpler" swings, however, I think I can make a consistency change without losing a ton of power. In particular, I reviewed Charley Hoffman's and Gary Woodland's swing. Their hands are much lower at the top and they still generate sufficient power. I think I might try to get closer to this position at the top. Has anyone else made this change? How did it go?

I made that change last year. I actually dont put as much strain on my shoulder (injured it) anymore and actually am hitting the ball much farther then I used to.

 

[interlooper]

I made that change last year. I actually dont put as much strain on my shoulder (injured it) anymore and actually am hitting the ball much farther then I used to.

That is great to hear. Funny that you mention the change from injury. I have learned that Ben Crane made the same change after a back injury. I looked at his 2 swings. His older swing is more like my current swing (high hands, lift and more in front of me). His new swing is where I am thinking about going (lower, deeper hands). He has since said that he did in fact lose distance, but gained much more accuracy. I could be OK with some loss in distance.

I am going to spend some time at the range this week with the vision of his swing in my mind and see how it works out. I am pretty sure that if I go this route, my irons will need to go a degree or two flatter. Probably should bring some electrical tape and a board to check it.

 

[c0ncept]

That is great to hear. Funny that you mention the change from injury. I have learned that Ben Crane made the same change after a back injury. I looked at his 2 swings. His older swing is more like my current swing (high hands, lift and more in front of me). His new swing is where I am thinking about going (lower, deeper hands). He has since said that he did in fact lose distance, but gained much more accuracy. I could be OK with some loss in distance.

I am going to spend some time at the range this week with the vision of his swing in my mind and see how it works out. I am pretty sure that if I go this route, my irons will need to go a degree or two flatter. Probably should bring some electrical tape and a board to check it.

I did it with a swing coach who recorded everything so it was much easier. Shortened my swing and was able to load up more. Since then I have built an amazing core (I dont go to the gym all my strength training is done on the range). I gained a lot of distance that I had lost because I was being stupid in my swing and wasting energy.

 

[Doug the lefty]

Last winter, shortening my backswing was my main focus and dramatically improved my swing. basically what others have said, more compact and less wasted energy. My backswing looks a lot like JB Holmes.

 

[Rob Wedge]

Hey guys. I am thinking about making a swing-change during the winter off-season. At the top of my backswing, my hands get pretty high... sorta like Nick Watney high. When it is on, it is good and powerful. When it is off, however, it can get ugly, really ugly I want to be more consistent, even on the off-days, and even if I lose a bit of power.

When looking at "simpler" swings, however, I think I can make a consistency change without losing a ton of power. In particular, I reviewed Charley Hoffman's and Gary Woodland's swing. Their hands are much lower at the top and they still generate sufficient power. I think I might try to get closer to this position at the top. Has anyone else made this change? How did it go?

I recently made this exact change. Was having issues with consistency with all irons so signed up for 6 lessons. Put me on the launch monitor and video taped me. Right away before he even said anything I could tell I was way to high in my back swing. Flattened my swing out to where my left arm goes across my right arm pit at the top. Had me turn my belt buckle to my right side and has me try to brush across it with my right elbow on the down swing. Soo much more consistent now, best change I have ever made.

 

[pjcedog]

Keep your right arm (back arm if right handed) straight at address, if the right elbow is bent at all at address it will throw off your swing bottom through the ball when your hands go high it stretches your arms out away from you and you need to be setup with straight elbows to all ow for that reach. When I play my best I feel like I am pushing the club up high over my head at the top as opposed to just back around and behind, this keeps everything stretched out and full and will greatly increase power with a full turn. Not sure I make that change. Just sayin.

 

[interlooper]

Keep your right arm (back arm if right handed) straight at address, if the right elbow is bent at all at address it will throw off your swing bottom through the ball when your hands go high it stretches your arms out away from you and you need to be setup with straight elbows to all ow for that reach. When I play my best I feel like I am pushing the club up high over my head at the top as opposed to just back around and behind, this keeps everything stretched out and full and will greatly increase power with a full turn. Not sure I make that change. Just sayin.

I already keep my right arm straight at address and, like you, I am high at the top. That is exactly what I am contemplating changing. I am willing to give a little power for more consistency. I want to be a sub-5 index... it is not lack of power that keeps me from it. It is a lack in consistency, and I need a better short game. You think the high-hands, outstretched swing is more consistent than the more compact, flatter swing? I am hoping for the opposite, but only time will tell.

 

[interlooper]

So this video almost shows exactly what I am thinking about doing. The swing on the right is fairly close to my current swing. The swing on the left is where I am thinking about going (if all goes well during the incubation stage). You can ignore the commentary; just using it as a visual cue of what I am considering doing.

 

[pjcedog]

I already keep my right arm straight at address and, like you, I am high at the top. That is exactly what I am contemplating changing. I am willing to give a little power for more consistency. I want to be a sub-5 index... it is not lack of power that keeps me from it. It is a lack in consistency, and I need a better short game. You think the high-hands, outstretched swing is more consistent than the more compact, flatter swing? I am hoping for the opposite, but only time will tell.

I spent a long time working on a flatter swing trying to get rid of a tendency to hit the ball what I thought was too high on average and found myself hitting pull hooks all day long, this is with a more compact, right elbow lower and closer to the body throughout the swing. It worked great for the longer clubs but my wedges and short irons really suffered for some reason. It got to where I was shanking one almost every round and I attributed it to the flatter swing plane. As soon as I went back to the more upright swing no more shanks, all that went away. I found that I hit everything straighter, with a slight fade and a little high but not sky high, when I stay more vertical. It might help your consistency but I couldn't find the secret to it. I went from a 15 to a 5 and back up to about a ten with all of this experimenting but I am done with it now. Not trying to say it won't work just that it didn't work for me and I thought I would share that.

 

[INgolfer]

My swing used to be long and I ended up kinda high too, and Tadashi also recommended to me to shorten it so it wasn't so long and to just hinge my wrists a little more because I virtually had none. What was happening before was that my hands got caught behind me and I as pushing the ball. So while it was a very minor swing change (I keep getting a lot of crap for talking about my "swing change") it was actually a very small adjustment that I didn't even have to practice on the range. I just made a mental note on my next round to only go a little past parallel and hinge my wrists, and I am getting the same distance with no push whatsoever. Since then I have been more consistent and have been shooting some of my lowest scores in a long time.

 

[interlooper]

I spent a long time working on a flatter swing trying to get rid of a tendency to hit the ball what I thought was too high on average and found myself hitting pull hooks all day long, this is with a more compact, right elbow lower and closer to the body throughout the swing. It worked great for the longer clubs but my wedges and short irons really suffered for some reason. It got to where I was shanking one almost every round and I attributed it to the flatter swing plane. As soon as I went back to the more upright swing no more shanks, all that went away. I found that I hit everything straighter, with a slight fade and a little high but not sky high, when I stay more vertical. It might help your consistency but I couldn't find the secret to it. I went from a 15 to a 5 and back up to about a ten with all of this experimenting but I am done with it now. Not trying to say it won't work just that it didn't work for me and I thought I would share that.

Thanks dude for the explanation. I actually just finished hitting 200 balls expierementing with this. The results were varied, and I definitely will need to spend an incredible amount of time on it if I follow through. First, the height of my ball flight decreased dramatically. This, in turn, gave me less distance. About a half club's length in the mid irons. I struggled with the hook at first, but straightened it out about 50 balls in or so. At the end, I has a tendency to get a bit laid off. Will give about another 1000 balls or so to see what happens. I hope the next session goes better.

 

[interlooper]

Hit another 175 balls with the swing change in mind. Did not go very well. I keep getting laid-off on the downswing. One of two things tends to happen: 1) I keep the right elbow too "tucked" and, combined with the deep turn, I come in too flat; or 2) I get into an OK position at the top, but in the transition I drop-in too much, leaving the club way too behind me without much room to come into the ball.

I was beginning to think that this experimental swing change might not be for me, so I hit 25 balls with the less-deep and higher hands over the right shoulder swing. Everything went well. I might give the proposed swing change a bit more, but not looking good thus far (400 or so balls in).

 

[Kmac]

Hit another 175 balls with the swing change in mind. Did not go very well. I keep getting laid-off on the downswing. One of two things tends to happen: 1) I keep the right elbow too "tucked" and, combined with the deep turn, I come in too flat; or 2) I get into an OK position at the top, but in the transition I drop-in too much, leaving the club way too behind me without much room to come into the ball.

I was beginning to think that this experimental swing change might not be for me, so I hit 25 balls with the less-deep and higher hands over the right shoulder swing. Everything went well. I might give the proposed swing change a bit more, but not looking good thus far (400 or so balls in).

Interesting. I hate to bring this word up but I tried a swing something like this and ended up hitting a lot of sh**ks. Is this what you saw too?

 

[interlooper]

Interesting. I hate to bring this word up but I tried a swing something like this and ended up hitting a lot of sh**ks. Is this what you saw too?

No worries about bringing it up. I didn't see sh**ks, but everything was starting way right (and often off the toe). I was having to try to "save" almost everything with the hands. Lost a decent chunk of distance and height.

 

[c0ncept]

This is similar to what my coach was having me do this summer and I think it took me a better part of 2 months to get used to but it was the few good shots where I could see what it was going to lead to that kept me working at it. Its not an easy change since it is uncomfortable and you are used to the original swing but the consistency will be worth it.

 

[pjcedog]

One thing I was fighting with this swing is my natural move through the ball is somewhat 'handsy' and I struggled with keeping my wrists locked down through the ball. I think the consistency of Matt Kuchar has made this flatter swing more attractive to a lot of players, but it is hard to do, at least for me it is.

 

[arydolphin]

No worries about bringing it up. I didn't see sh**ks, but everything was starting way right (and often off the toe). I was having to try to "save" almost everything with the hands. Lost a decent chunk of distance and height.

Interlooper, obviously I can't see your swing, but I can tell you that I'm trying to shorten my swing as well. My swing now is a bit different from you in that my hands are pretty high, but I'm also past parallel with just about everything...envision Bubba Watson or John Daly, and you know what I'm talking about. Part of that is flexibility, but part of that is letting the arms "run off" after finishing my turn.

Anyways, it sounds like you're trying to get a little flatter with your swing. I actually made the mistake of thinking that getting flatter would shorten my swing, and I had the issue where I was taking the club back too far to the inside and then I was under the plane on my downswing. All I could do is hit blocks or flip with my hands and hit hooks. For me, the fix was that I had to make sure I was still taking the club back on the correct plane on the backswing and feeling like the club was in front of me.

Incidentally, my coach is mainly having me work this winter on getting the feel of a 9-o'clock backswing and where that really is. The first time he told me to take it back to what I felt like was 9 o'clock, my hands were at about 11 o'clock. So it's lots of mirror work this winter. The big thing that we're also doing is going slow on the backswing, taking the club back to the 9 o'clock position, stopping there for a second or two, then finishing your swing. You could adapt that drill to get into a "top of the backswing" position with lower hands but still a full turn, hold there to ingrain the feel, then go to a full finish. Don't worry about ballflight all that much, focus on the feel of that position. Just my 2 cents, hope that helps in some way.

 

[interlooper]

This is similar to what my coach was having me do this summer and I think it took me a better part of 2 months to get used to but it was the few good shots where I could see what it was going to lead to that kept me working at it. Its not an easy change since it is uncomfortable and you are used to the original swing but the consistency will be worth it.

Yeah, I can see how it could take that long. If it keeps going like this, however, I wouldn't make it even close to that long. When i am swining poorly, i have a tendency of becoming laid-off or stuck in the transition. This potential swing change may increase that tendency due to the position of the right elbow at the top.

One thing I was fighting with this swing is my natural move through the ball is somewhat 'handsy' and I struggled with keeping my wrists locked down through the ball. I think the consistency of Matt Kuchar has made this flatter swing more attractive to a lot of players, but it is hard to do, at least for me it is.

I may be in that group too, man. I am not very handsy, but this potential swing change (as of now) has caused me to become more handsy in an attempt to save the shot from an inside, flat and laid off swing path.

 

[interlooper]

OK folks. So I am officially done trying that proposed swing change. That was very short-lived. I got about 1,200 balls in with the proposed swing-change and have discovered that it is not good for me (using video as confirmation). As I noted earlier, this swing appears to exacerbate some of my bad swing tendencies, making them show-up more often. This is exactly what I was trying to counteract... and I lost too much distance on top of it.

Here is a break-down of why it didn't work for me (or why I don't want it to work for me):

Lateral move: During the downswing of my real swing, my lower body makes an aggressive lateral slide towards the target. This shallows out my club path, give me ample time to keep the club in front of me and, ultimately, helps my hips from spinning too quickly and leaving the club stuck behind. The lateral move is a significant piece of my power and a tool to ensure that I come from the inside and the bottom of my swing is in front of the ball.

With the proposed swing change, for some reason I have a difficult time making the lateral slide. As a result, my hips start turning immediately (absent the lateral move), often outpacing the club -- which is already deeper -- on the way down. This would often lead to being stuck, making for some pushes or flip hooks. Sometimes my body would recognize the pattern and begin to rotate from the top, which obviously leads to a steep plane.

Width: My real swing has some width to it. It allows me to generate speed and to maintain control. While the proposed swing change would provide more lag and narrow the swing, I have learned that it leads me to have more trouble than it is worth. First, the more lag associated with the deeper swing requires either (a) more hand work or (b) a stronger left hand grip. I don't want to do either. Second, the extra lag didn't come close to equaling the amount of power from the width of my real swing.

Hips and Footwork: With my real swing, I has learned to keep my right heel on the ground for a long period through the down swing, rolling the foot towards the target near impact. This keeps my right hip from flaring towards the balls and, in turn, allows plenty of room for the swing. With the proposed swing, my right heel kept popping up much earlier in the down swing. Sometimes this would lead to the right hip flaring towards the ball and, thus, increasing the chances of getting stuck.

All-in-all, I am glad I experimented, because I feel like I know my swing more. While I still want more consistency with my swing, I will work on doing it from the base of my current swing. When I am off, my typical miss now is left, which I believe occurs when I am lazy on the lateral slide early in the downswing, causing the club face to come in a bit closed and steep. Then, I will work on the short-game so I can rescue myself after those shots.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments, etc.