Playing Out of a Divot?

[captaincaution]

What part of the ball, the bottom, the equator, the top? Or, put another way, after defining which part, how far below the surface of the fairway? I just cannot see a way that one can define these abnormal ground conditions such that fair and equitable relief is given to all and not open to interpretation from one instance to the next. The only solution would be allowing one to pick, clean and place the ball in the fairway all the time and within a specified distance of the original lie since there is the the expectation that being in the fairway should always result in a perfect lie.

I added the underline above.

Golf isn't fair, and Lee Westwood said so himself this week. It is meant to be equitable. As unfair, and unjust, playing from an unrepaired divot may be, it is unfortunately the most equitable way to do it.

 

[Chef23]

line it up from a knee high drop? Or when the ball rolls forward and you get to place?

If the latter, I guess that's up to the rest of the rules to decide haha

If you place the ball after a drop for relief you can line it up. Bryson had that exact situation on Sunday after taking relief from a sprinkler head near the green. Bryson dropped twice and the ball rolled forward then he asked the official if he could line it up and the answer was yes. The difference was once he placed it he couldn't adjust the line.

 

[JB]

I added the underline above.

Golf isn't fair, and Lee Westwood said so himself this week. It is meant to be equitable. As unfair, and unjust, playing from an unrepaired divot may be, it is unfortunately the most equitable way to do it.

While I am not sure I disagree, is that really equitable? Those playing earlier do not have the same amount of divots as those playing later, right?

 

[donny475]

why should you expect a perfect lie even in the fairway?
i mean just because you hit the ball where you should be, just like 50 or 60 other guys before you. Why shouldn't you get a drop for a side hill or downhill part of the fairway? Plugged in the bunker?







it not a game of perfect...never has, never will.

 

[Bryndom]

why should you expect a perfect lie even in the fairway?
i mean just because you hit the ball where you should be, just like 50 or 60 other guys before you. Why shouldn't you get a drop for a side hill or downhill part of the fairway? Plugged in the bunker?







it not a game of perfect...never has, never will.

I think the reverse is also a consideration. Why expect that a player can accurately hit a 2 inch target 300+ yards away on the tee box to avoid the divot? That seems unrealistic

 

[Canadan]

What part of the ball, the bottom, the equator, the top? Or, put another way, after defining which part, how far below the surface of the fairway? I just cannot see a way that one can define these abnormal ground conditions such that fair and equitable relief is given to all and not open to interpretation from one instance to the next. The only solution would be allowing one to pick, clean and place the ball in the fairway all the time and within a specified distance of the original lie since there is the the expectation that being in the fairway should always result in a perfect lie.

the bottom of the ball. And no, it would not, as there are multiple elements required to obtain relief based on my wording.

Even in my suggested rule wording, it wouldn't be a perfect lie. You'd have to drop from the knee.

 

[captaincaution]

While I am not sure I disagree, is that really equitable? Those playing earlier do not have the same amount of divots as those playing later, right?

Playing the ball as it lies, even if it ends up in a divot is equitable. The fact that the number of divots in the fairway for those playing later is different is not equal. Just like the weather conditions at the Open may be unequal for the morning and afternoon waves, it is equitable to have to play the weather conditions you draw, as long as it is safe to do so.

 

[Canadan]

I added the underline above.

Golf isn't fair, and Lee Westwood said so himself this week. It is meant to be equitable. As unfair, and unjust, playing from an unrepaired divot may be, it is unfortunately the most equitable way to do it.

I'm happy that you want the game to continue to be potentially unfair. I'm of the belief that like other rules established into the game, this can easily be incorporated and help golfers enjoy it even more. ground under repair is ground under repair. This is ground under repair, that is not the intent of the course designer to exist (similar to pitch marks on greens), and I believe relief is appropriate.

Lee Westwood can feel whatever way he wants. They play on perfection every week.

 

[Canadan]

Playing the ball as it lies, even if it ends up in a divot is equitable. The fact that the number of divots in the fairway for those playing later is different is not equal. Just like the weather conditions at the Open may be unequal for the morning and afternoon waves, it is equitable to have to play the weather conditions you draw, as long as it is safe to do so.

If that is your definition of equitable, then no area of a golf course should ever be deemed ground under repair. No rules should exist for animal conditions, sprinkler heads, or basic relief. THAT would be equitable in completion.

Call it all bad luck.

 

[donny475]

why should you expect a perfect lie even in the fairway?
i mean just because you hit the ball where you should be, just like 50 or 60 other guys before you. Why shouldn't you get a drop for a side hill or downhill part of the fairway? Plugged in the bunker?







it not a game of perfect...never has, never will.

I think the reverse is also a consideration. Why expect that a player can accurately hit a 2 inch target 300+ yards away on the tee box to avoid the divot? That seems unrealistic

Nowhere do i suggest that at all, but i do suggest that if you hit to the same section of the fairway where possibly 70 other people hit that morning, why expect a perfect lie? he could have hit 3 wood to 260-270 and probably avoided all the divots. Its a game of chance, the bounces, the imperfections in the green, even the changing of the wind. how many hit of the 18th that morning and no one else landed in a divot? have each one sanded and the groups hit, why aren't they replacing the divots? unfair? maybe, but its not a game of perfect

 

[JB]

Playing the ball as it lies, even if it ends up in a divot is equitable. The fact that the number of divots in the fairway for those playing later is different is not equal. Just like the weather conditions at the Open may be unequal for the morning and afternoon waves, it is equitable to have to play the weather conditions you draw, as long as it is safe to do so.

Out of curiosity, why do we have ground under repair at all then?
Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree, but it seems to be a bit of moving target.

 

[captaincaution]

If that is your definition of equitable, then no area of a golf course should ever be deemed ground under repair. No rules should exist for animal conditions, sprinkler heads, or basic relief. THAT would be equitable in completion.

Call it all bad luck.

Dan, there is a difference between a friendly, even a competitive match, and a tournament with a field of over 150. If you and I were playing together, you're damn straight I would tell you to roll it out of the divot, and play from there. And if you have a great shot playing from the fairway instead of the divot, that is great. It would be impossible for many tournaments to function if you had to decide whether a ball is in a divot or not, if the divot is recovered enough to be considered not a divot anymore, that the only way to treat everyone the same, as unfair as it is, is to play the ball from the damn divot. I don't think it is fair, or even necessarily right, but it is the way to treat everyone as equally as possible.

Ground under repair can be defined, and is marked, cart paths are well defined, and interference because of those conditions is easily discernible. Should I get to replay my tee shot that hit the yardage marker in the center of the fairway and kicked 30 yards right into a hazard? Because that has happened to me before, and it sucks, but I played the ball where it ended up.

 

[Canadan]

Nowhere do i suggest that at all, but i do suggest that if you hit to the same section of the fairway where possibly 70 other people hit that morning, why expect a perfect lie? he could have hit 3 wood to 260-270 and probably avoided all the divots. Its a game of chance, the bounces, the imperfections in the green, even the changing of the wind. how many hit of the 18th that morning and no one else landed in a divot? have each one sanded and the groups hit, why aren't they replacing the divots? unfair? maybe, but its not a game of perfect

Does this rule accommodate all golfers, or just the ones who pay the big bucks for low traffic + high upkeep courses?

There are lots of courses where the booked tee sheet and lower etiquette combine to produce a golf course with unrepaired divots everywhere. That experience is totally different from the golfer who plays at a private high end course where they have maintenance filling divots for repair daily.

I believe bad luck in golf is hitting the flagstick and the ball ricocheting of the green. I do not believe bad luck in golf is hitting into a man made crater on what should be fairway.

 

[Leftyuk]

Westwood did not complain about the divot, he just took his medicine the same way he would have done if he had something go his way. A perfect lie in the rough balances out the divot. As Westwood hit the green in regulation, and pulled a $1m wage for the week, I know he is not complaining.

 

[captaincaution]

Out of curiosity, why do we have ground under repair at all then?
Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree, but it seems to be a bit of moving target.

Every tournament I have played in, the course pro or maintenance crew has marked ground under repair ahead of time, and everyone is entitled to relief therefrom. I think it could be fair to mark divots that have been filled/not replaced between rounds as GUR, but would not be practical to run many tournaments (and maybe the pro tours are excepted from this, they have better staffing capabilities) if an official had to decide if a new divot is GUR.

 

[Canadan]

Dan, there is a difference between a friendly, even a competitive match, and a tournament with a field of over 150. If you and I were playing together, you're damn straight I would tell you to roll it out of the divot, and play from there. And if you have a great shot playing from the fairway instead of the divot, that is great. It would be impossible for many tournaments to function if you had to decide whether a ball is in a divot or not, if the divot is recovered enough to be considered not a divot anymore, that the only way to treat everyone the same, as unfair as it is, is to play the ball from the damn divot. I don't think it is fair, or even necessarily right, but it is the way to treat everyone as equally as possible.

Ground under repair can be defined, and is marked, cart paths are well defined, and interference because of those conditions is easily discernible. Should I get to replay my tee shot that hit the yardage marker in the center of the fairway and kicked 30 yards right into a hazard? Because that has happened to me before, and it sucks, but I played the ball where it ended up.

divots can be defined as well. Courses could go circle each and every one of them and call them what they are (ground that is under repair). With the two part rule I suggested, the definition of a divot is narrowed aggressively, including that location that is nearly healed being ineligible for a drop. Suggesting that a players have such little integrity that they would be seeking relief regularly is kind of a knock on what most golfers stand for, which is a true test in the spirit of the game.

If we should be obligated to play from divots, because bad luck, we should also be obligated to play from a plugged lie. How in the WORLD could you possibly define what a plugged lie is? Maybe it's in a small depression. Maybe it's in someone else's hole who played there earlier. Suck it up, buttercup, unlucky! You see how crazy that sounds?

Comparing hitting into a divot to hitting the stake in the middle of the fairway is so incredibly unfair. First, the two have absolutely nothing in common, and second, I've never EVER seen something like that happen - whereas I see balls in divots regularly.

 

[OldandStiff]

I'm happy that you want the game to continue to be potentially unfair. I'm of the belief that like other rules established into the game, this can easily be incorporated and help golfers enjoy it even more. ground under repair is ground under repair. This is ground under repair, that is not the intent of the course designer to exist (similar to pitch marks on greens), and I believe relief is appropriate.

Lee Westwood can feel whatever way he wants. They play on perfection every week.

I completely agree that it is the very definition of ground under repair, and it's asinine not to treat it as such in some GUR rule kind of way.

As all things are the game is unfair though. I had to roll an eagle putt over a pitch mark in the fringe yesterday. There was no better option to a downhill pin from that spot at that time. It was crap luck, and I don't think the golf course designer intended someone to have recently plugged in the fringe and not fixed the mark, but if you want to start changing rules so no one ever has a bad break on the idea of fairness, there's really no end, and the game would eventually be not as intended.

 

[Canadan]

Westwood did not complain about the divot, he just took his medicine the same way he would have done if he had something go his way. A perfect lie in the rough balances out the divot. As Westwood hit the green in regulation, and pulled a $1m wage for the week, I know he is not complaining.

This thread is about whether or not divots should be considered relief, not whether people (or Tour players) "complain" about them and/or how much money you can make playing golf.

 

[JB]

Every tournament I have played in, the course pro or maintenance crew has marked ground under repair ahead of time, and everyone is entitled to relief therefrom. I think it could be fair to mark divots that have been filled/not replaced between rounds as GUR, but would not be practical to run many tournaments (and maybe the pro tours are excepted from this, they have better staffing capabilities) if an official had to decide if a new divot is GUR.

Right. I guess my question is why does GUR exist though? Outside of danger, I am not sure why this is any different, at least by definition.

 

[Canadan]

I completely agree that it is the very definition of ground under repair, and it's asinine not to treat it as such in some GUR rule kind of way.

As all things are the game is unfair though. I had to roll an eagle putt over a pitch mark in the fringe yesterday. There was no better option to a downhill pin from that spot at that time. It was crap luck, and I don't think the golf course designer intended someone to have recently plugged in the fringe and not fixed the mark, but if you want to start changing rules so no one ever has a bad break on the idea of fairness, there's really no end, and the game would eventually be not as intended.

I disagree with this because this is the same argument in a different form.

We have a rule for plugged lies that didn't break the "well if you get relief from that you should get it from everything" condition.
We have a rule for sprinkler heads and cart paths and etc that didn't break the "well if you get relief from that you should it from everything" condition.

I absolutely HATE that the idea of giving relief from divots magically means the rulebook is useless and the relief floodgates should be opened.

 

[Canadan]

Every tournament I have played in, the course pro or maintenance crew has marked ground under repair ahead of time, and everyone is entitled to relief therefrom. I think it could be fair to mark divots that have been filled/not replaced between rounds as GUR, but would not be practical to run many tournaments (and maybe the pro tours are excepted from this, they have better staffing capabilities) if an official had to decide if a new divot is GUR.

This is a great sample of why I think it's so stupid that GUR exists.

Because courses either don't have the adequate staff, or don't feel like spray painting a bunch of divots, etc - Divots are not deemed ground under repair - despite the condition that they are in being entirely the same as other areas of the courses that are deemed as ground under repair.

You see how laughably cherry picked that perspective is?

 

[Pops]

This conversation has started to stir again after what happened to Westwood this weekend. It got me thinking once again about how to properly define a rule that would work both as a common sense action, and one that could be easily defined while playing. Here's what I have come up with;

Damaged Fairway Lies
- A ball coming to rest in the fairway on damaged ground will be granted relief if the following conditions are present: (1) the ball must be below the regular surface of the fairway, and (2) the damaged area must exceed the width of the golf ball. Relief granted will be one club length from nearest point of relief with knee high drop

This solves for a lot of the gray area where nearly healed divots would not exceed that width requirement, and it also supports areas of the course that are damaged due to burnout etc (since we don't all play perfect conditions).

Thoughts?

You should have called this into KMOT yesterday on pga tour radio. They were asking for rule ideas. You nailed it with this

 

[donny475]

Does this rule accommodate all golfers, or just the ones who pay the big bucks for low traffic + high upkeep courses?

There are lots of courses where the booked tee sheet and lower etiquette combine to produce a golf course with unrepaired divots everywhere. That experience is totally different from the golfer who plays at a private high end course where they have maintenance filling divots for repair daily.

I believe bad luck in golf is hitting the flagstick and the ball ricocheting of the green. I do not believe bad luck in golf is hitting into a man made crater on what should be fairway.

I play my ball if it rolls in a divot , old-semi grown in or fresh, if i am playing a friendly game, 10 dollar buy in group game or a Pro am before a PGA tournament. WHY? because thats the rule. I know this is a discussion as to IF we believe it should be a rule change.....I also carry a sand bottle on my push cart that i fill every Day i play and fill and sand my divots.

 

[Canadan]

I play my ball if it rolls in a divot , old-semi grown in or fresh, if i am playing a friendly game, 10 dollar buy in group game or a Pro am before a PGA tournament. WHY? because thats the rule. I know this is a discussion as to IF we believe it should be a rule change.....I also carry a sand bottle on my push cart that i fill every Day i play and fill and sand my divots.

Wouldn't anyone playing under the current rules of golf be doing what you do? I'm confused as to whether there's a point, or that you just felt like telling me you play out of divots

 

[captaincaution]

I disagree with this because this is the same argument in a different form.

We have a rule for plugged lies that didn't break the "well if you get relief from that you should get it from everything" condition.
We have a rule for sprinkler heads and cart paths and etc that didn't break the "well if you get relief from that you should it from everything" condition.

I absolutely HATE that the idea of giving relief from divots magically means the rulebook is useless and the relief floodgates should be opened.

I think that your definition of divot would be pretty easy to apply, and I don't think the relief floodgates would open if this change were to be made. At the same time, I understand why the rule is what is is now, and as unfair as it is. That's the rule. But I support the crusade to change it.

Comparing hitting into a divot to hitting the stake in the middle of the fairway is so incredibly unfair. First, the two have absolutely nothing in common, and second, I've never EVER seen something like that happen - whereas I see balls in divots regularly.

I hit a yardage marker that was one of the hard dome shaped ones, not a stake sticking up from the ground. Hit a lovely draw on a dog leg left, and the ball bounced at least 15 feet in the air and straight right into a waste area. I wouldn't have believed it had I not just seen it.