Pops question for match play

[oumagic]

I didn’t want to derail the other thread. If a mod thinks this belongs there, feel free to move it.

I don’t understand pops for match play and groups. I posted earlier in the other “pops” thread that I think my group is doing it wrong and am looking for guidance.

I am an 11 and my buddy is a 15, I understand that I give him 4 strokes for stroke play and that is no issue. On match play, let’s say we agree on 3 strokes (75%). Why does everyone give the strokes on the 3 hardest holes? I would think he should have the strokes on handicap hole 12, 13, and 14?

I was always taught that if I am giving strokes they go on the hardest holes, but if I am an 11, I technically would get a stroke on handicap holes 1-11 and he would get strokes on 1-14.

That point is critical to the two-fold debate our group of 12 is having. I have told them that we all need to use handicaps and they are fighting me.

The way they do it is they give the worst golfer last Sunday, he was an 18 strokes that are the difference from the lowest cap, but then no one else gets anything. Last week, the worst guy got 7 strokes because I was the low at 11 and he was the high at 18.

I feel like that is not fair to other guys. Why should my buddy that is a 15 not get any strokes when he is playing against me? My second point is that they shouldn’t get them on the 7 hardest holes. He should get them on holes 12-18.

The way they are doing it is just wrong in my opinion. The highest cap there has an advantage every Sunday. The last 5 Sunday’s, the solo guy that got pops won skins. It is not that they have an advantage over me since a lot of Sunday’s I am the low cap; it is just that the highest cap has an unfair advantage over golfers that are not the lowest cap.

Does that make sense?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MagicSpell]

The conventional algorithm is to only allocate pops to the higher handicap player(s). Let's start with the easiest example of a head to head match play scenario. Player A has a 10 handicap and player B has a 15 handicap. Player A would give 5 strokes (pops) to Player B. This essentially says Player A is playing "scratch" while Player B is playing with a 5 handicap. The USGA has decided that both players don't get to use their actual course handicap for the following reason outlined in their Handicap System Manual:
" Handicap stroke holes are established to maximize the number of halved holes in a match by assigning strokes where player B most needs his five strokes in order to obtain a half on those holes. If both A and B receive strokes on those five holes, the better player (A) will have a greater chance of winning those holes."
So the gist of it is this: If the golfers both use their full course handicaps, then there will be holes on which they are both applying handicap strokes (reducing their scores by a stroke). And that doesn't help the weaker player - it keeps an advantage with the stronger player. So knocking the stronger golfer down to zero strokes ensures the weaker player of getting the advantage of using handicap strokes on holes where he or she most needs the help for an equitable match.

Since only one player is now getting strokes (as the lower handicap player is not) those strokes are allocated to the hardest holes.

Things could get a little more complicated if you are not playing head to head matches. I suppose you'd have to look at how each person is competing against the others. If you are truly playing skins only (not really match play) then I would say your description would be more correct. Each player would play the hole according to their course handicap and lowest score would take the skin. But that's something all of you would have to agree on.

 

[DataDude]

Low handicap goes to 0 always, then everyone else gets strokes off of that. Example if an 11, 15, 18, and 20 are playing together the 15 would get a stroke on the 4 hardest holes, the 18 would get a stroke on the 7 hardest holes, and the 20 would get a stroke on the 9 hardest holes.

 

[mpeterson]

Course handicaps should be the lowest for where higher handicap golfers tend to score worse than lower handicap golfers relative to the rest of the course. So it makes sense, especially in match play, for those holes to be the ones given strokes on first.

I don’t understand the HCP setup that you described. So they gave all the strokes to the highest guy, off the cap of the lowest, but nobody in between? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[OGputtnfool]

I don’t understand the HCP setup that you described. So they gave all the strokes to the highest guy, off the cap of the lowest, but nobody in between? That doesn’t make any sense.

x2....

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[DataDude]

Course handicaps should be the lowest for where higher handicap golfers tend to score worse than lower handicap golfers relative to the rest of the course. So it makes sense, especially in match play, for those holes to be the ones given strokes on first.

I don’t understand the HCP setup that you described. So they gave all the strokes to the highest guy, off the cap of the lowest, but nobody in between? That doesn’t make any sense.

Yeah that basically means the best player and the worst player are starting even with everyone else giving them strokes.

 

[DG_1234]

Low handicap goes to 0 always, then everyone else gets strokes off of that. Example if an 11, 15, 18, and 20 are playing together the 15 would get a stroke on the 4 hardest holes, the 18 would get a stroke on the 7 hardest holes, and the 20 would get a stroke on the 9 hardest holes.

Yes, what you wrote here is most traditional, and fair.

 

[oumagic]

Pops question for match play

Yeah that basically means the best player and the worst player are starting even with everyone else giving them strokes.

Totally right, it isn’t fair. I don’t run the group, but I think they are finally listening. It is a problem because the people that win all of the skins are the best golfer there or the worst. The people in the middle were not getting anything. We had a 5 play with us one Sunday, he won the most, and if I recall, then the only guy there getting pops won the rest.

I still don’t understand why everyone does strokes on the hardest holes? But Magicspell spelled it out pretty clear. I had always, head to head given strokes on the hardest holes.

I will be interested to see how this Sunday plays out and if the guys in the middle like it better. The group leaders agreed to give it a trial where everyone plays by handicaps. I think there will be more pushes because the best and worst caps won’t be the only ones with birdies. I did find out that I am not the lowest, there were two that have 10 and two of us have 11 on course handicap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mancest]

when I play skins with my buddy, everything goes off of the low handicapper (which is usually me). I almost always ask, do you want them off the high or the low? 2 guys I usually play with, 1 is a 16 and the other about 20. So if we go off the high, the 16 gets holes rated 13-16 1 off me, and the 20 gets 1 each on rated 1-2 and 13-18. This also means that the 20 gets strokes on 1-2 and 17-18 against the 20.

If we go off the low (which is what we usually do) the 16 gets 1 on 1-4 and the 20 gets them on 1-8.

Doesn't really matter to me either way, if i am playing well I win some skins, if I am playing poorly I don't regardless of where the strokes are placed.

 

[oumagic]

Pops question for match play

I never have had a problem playing caps in one group. I never really understood why we gave strokes on the hardest holes instead of the easiest, but didn’t really care. It is when two and three groups play together that seems to be getting off track and I am trying to make it fair for everyone. That is why I came here for advice because of the events they do with multiple groups.

My buddy hasn’t won a skin since January when he was the high cap and got two strokes a side. A guy I ride with frequently hasn’t won a skin since I joined the group. I don’t win a skin every Sunday, but have won my fair share and it just got to the point where I had to say something because I felt my buddies were getting a raw deal.

They didn’t take the comments too well. They thought I was trying to just disallow pops altogether and that wasn’t the case. At one point, I did say that everyone needed to play with caps or no one. But that wasn’t so I could beat up on the higher caps (like I said, I am not always the lowest cap there). It just wasn’t fair that a 15 was giving an 18 seven strokes based on my handicap versus the 18.

In their defense, when they first started the groups, the handicaps were all close and they did no pops. Then when wider ranges started joining, I don’t think they really thought about how to proceed. I love playing with these guys and am just trying to make the skins game fair for all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tahoebum]

It’s important to remember that hole handicaps are assigned to rate difficulty for the higher handicap golfer and they often do not reflect the difficulty for the better golfer. By far the hardest hole for me at my club is the 2nd hole, a par 3 that plays about 175 yards. It’s the number 17 handicap hole. One of the easiest holes for me is the par 4 13th that is rated the number 7 handicap hole. I’ve made 15+ birdies and an eagle on that hole in about 55 times playing it and only a few bogies.

 

[mpeterson]

I never have had a problem playing caps in one group. I never really understood why we gave strokes on the hardest holes instead of the easiest, but didn’t really care. It is when two and three groups play together that seems to be getting off track and I am trying to make it fair for everyone. That is why I came here for advice because of the events they do with multiple groups.

My buddy hasn’t won a skin since January when he was the high cap and got two strokes a side. A guy I ride with frequently hasn’t won a skin since I joined the group. I don’t win a skin every Sunday, but have won my fair share and it just got to the point where I had to say something because I felt my buddies were getting a raw deal.

They didn’t take the comments too well. They thought I was trying to just disallow pops altogether and that wasn’t the case. At one point, I did say that everyone needed to play with caps or no one. But that wasn’t so I could beat up on the higher caps (like I said, I am not always the lowest cap there). It just wasn’t fair that a 15 was giving an 18 seven strokes based on my handicap versus the 18.

In their defense, when they first started the groups, the handicaps were all close and they did no pops. Then when wider ranges started joining, I don’t think they really thought about how to proceed. I love playing with these guys and am just trying to make the skins game fair for all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even if the handicaps are taken from the low cap, as long as everyone is getting strokes. What your group is doing, where they seemingly only give strokes to one person(?) is crazy town.

Say player A is a 4, B is a 9, and C is a 13.

If those get normalized to 0, 5, and 9, the effect when it comes to skins/match play/etc. is the same. Yes, player B isn't getting a stroke on 4 holes they weren't, but neither are the people below them. So the situation for skins/etc. are fine in that case. If you want to do 75% caps or something, just multiply by that number. You can do that across groups and it works fine. We all played off Finley's cap at an event.

 

[oumagic]

It worked pretty well today except for the newer guys that show up and estimate their handicap and it is not worth the $ to call people out. I don’t think it is an actual sandbag situation as it is more them not understanding what a handicap is. It is supposed to account for your potential. I am an 11 and haven’t shot below 84 in 5 or 6 rounds.

I think often people are asked their handicap and would answer 13 or 14 if they were shooting like me and didn’t understand what a handicap is. I think they are using recent score averages.

I tell you though, a skins game with 12 people playing at full handicaps makes it difficult on the low caps. Low cap there today was a 9 and he shot 78 with 6 bogies and no birdies and he didn’t sniff a skin; the two big winners were the 23 cap with 5 net birdies and a 17 with 3 net birdies. I got a stroke a side and only had one birdie (gross) but it was a push.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blugold]

It’s important to remember that hole handicaps are assigned to rate difficulty for the higher handicap golfer and they often do not reflect the difficulty for the better golfer. By far the hardest hole for me at my club is the 2nd hole, a par 3 that plays about 175 yards. It’s the number 17 handicap hole. One of the easiest holes for me is the par 4 13th that is rated the number 7 handicap hole. I’ve made 15+ birdies and an eagle on that hole in about 55 times playing it and only a few bogies.

To be fair, hole handicap is not a reflection of difficulty. It's a reflection of which holes have the greatest score discrepancy between scratch and bogey golfers.

 

[Boston_golfer]

The way I've always done it is:

Stroke Play: Everyone get's their strokes according to handicap.
Match Play: Lowest handicap is the base (0 strokes) and everyone above get's the difference, assigned from hardest hole down.
Skins: Everyone get's their strokes according to handicap, except on par 3s

 

[oumagic]

We tried full handicaps on Sunday with 12 people playing off of the low (9 cap) that was there. It didn’t matter if the strokes came on par 3 holes. Three people won skins: the two highest handicaps that were 17 and 23 each won 3 and an 11 won one with a net eagle.

The 23 cap had 5 net birdies and the 17 had a net eagle and two birdies. The 9 handicap had no birdies and shot a 78, I was playing at 11 and had one natural birdie and shot 85. The 17 shot 85 and the 23 shot 91.

It has everyone scratching their heads. When we played no handicap on skins, the lowest caps present won most of the skins. When we play full caps, the high handicaps win most of the skins. It takes birdies to win skins and it is tough to make it fair for all: high caps are making no gross birdies, but it is easier for them to make multiple pars than it is for the 9-11 caps to make multiple natural birdies.

We are trying this Sunday playing the skins off of 50% caps. This Sunday, it should be pretty even because the cap range attending is 11-16.

I am of the opinion that skins game is always going to be hard to handicap and there are probably better games to play with a wide range of caps. I just want to get it where the whole group thinks it is fair and I want all caps in the group to feel welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk