question about fitting

[DG_1234]

For my long club game I've noticed that a smooth easy tempo swing is is best matched to a relatively soft playing graphite shaft, either due to its bend profile, tip stiffness, relatively high torque number etc... And about 75% of the time I am able to play with a smooth transition easy tempo swing.
But if the temperature gets cold, or the wind picks up,or I am fatigued, my tempo may change to a faster pace with a bit harder transition.For these swings a more stout playing shaft will produce the best shots.
So , considering that swings change due to weather conditions or fatigue or mental state etc..., which swing should be measured for equipment fitting purposes ?

 

[Release]

Tempo and transition, usually are born with or acquired through the years of accumulated personal experience. Very difficult to modify. They're part of a person's physical and mental makeup.
If you look at all the different types of golf swings, one thing in common, being the accelerating through the golf ball.
Weather condition certainly would change the outcome of a golf shot but, that's applied to the field and not the individual. Cooler temperature ( bulky clothing ) might influence the swing speed but not so much to the tempo nor the speed of the transition.
Adrenaline, is one of the few things which would have influence on the tempo in a golf swing as with all other similar situations.
One can certainly consider all the variables during the seasonal weather condition, but probably not worth the effort to change from a setting which the golfer is familiar with to something very different.
I've heard of golfers changing the golf clubs for the playing condition in the wet/cold Winter to wider sole in the irons and more loft for the drivers but seldom heard anyone change the tempo for the golf swing.

 

[DG_1234]

Tempo and transition, usually are born with or acquired through the years of accumulated personal experience. Very difficult to modify. They're part of a person's physical and mental makeup.
If you look at all the different types of golf swings, one thing in common, being the accelerating through the golf ball.
Weather condition certainly would change the outcome of a golf shot but, that's applied to the field and not the individual. Cooler temperature ( bulky clothing ) might influence the swing speed but not so much to the tempo nor the speed of the transition.
Adrenaline, is one of the few things which would have influence on the tempo in a golf swing as with all other similar situations.
One can certainly consider all the variables during the seasonal weather condition, but probably not worth the effort to change from a setting which the golfer is familiar with to something very different.
I've heard of golfers changing the golf clubs for the playing condition in the wet/cold Winter to wider sole in the irons and more loft for the drivers but seldom heard anyone change the tempo for the golf swing.

I guess my observations are different than your. For example,In my regular group of 24 or so players about 10 can and do routinely shoot between 69 and 75. It's common for any of these relatively well skilled players to hit fairways and greens, parring the first several holes and then maybe on the 7th hole tee box get a little quick with their tempo or transition and hook a shot. Maybe then on the next tee box they're still thinking about the hole before and they overcompensate when trying to avoid another hook, so they block it right.
They manage to finish with a score of 73 that day but along the way they made some poor swings, missing some fairways and greens.
For good players, including on Tour, my observation is that the difference between the best shots and not so good ones is usually related to tempo and transition. Sometimes the change is caused by wind, sometimes by fatigue, sometimes by anger at having previously misplayed a shot etc...
So my OP question is about how the equipment fitting process factors in the tempo-transition changes that happen to a players swing throughout the round, and that's for the best skilled players. For higher handicap players it's more than just tempo-transition factors that change, as this segment of players usually actually has different swing planes and swing paths happening throughout the round.

 

[JB]

I guess my observations are different than your. For example,In my regular group of 24 or so players about 10 can and do routinely shoot between 69 and 75. It's common for any of these relatively well skilled players to hit fairways and greens, parring the first several holes and then maybe on the 7th hole tee box get a little quick with their tempo or transition and hook a shot. Maybe then on the next tee box they're still thinking about the hole before and they overcompensate when trying to avoid another hook, so they block it right.
They manage to finish with a score of 73 that day but along the way they made some poor swings, missing some fairways and greens.
For good players, including on Tour, my observation is that the difference between the best shots and not so good ones is usually related to tempo and transition. Sometimes the change is caused by wind, sometimes by fatigue, sometimes by anger at having previously misplayed a shot etc...
So my OP question is about how the equipment fitting process factors in the tempo-transition changes that happen to a players swing throughout the round, and that's for the best skilled players. For higher handicap players it's more than just tempo-transition factors that change, as this segment of players usually actually has different swing planes and swing paths happening throughout the round.

Of course slight changes occur and fitting takes all of that into equation. A good fitter looks at both the good and not so good swings and works to maximize the good and minimize the bad. If a slight tempo change occurs that doesn't invalidate the fitting. The swing elements, from impact to impact is not altered greatly, anymore than the human error does regularly.

 

[DG_1234]

Of course slight changes occur and fitting takes all of that into equation. A good fitter looks at both the good and not so good swings and works to maximize the good and minimize the bad. If a slight tempo change occurs that doesn't invalidate the fitting. The swing elements, from impact to impact is not altered greatly, anymore than the human error does regularly.

I thought fitters used the customer's best shots for distance, spin, launch, ball speed, trajectory etc... and then recommended the club specs which were used to produce those shots.
Are you writing that my assumption above is wrong, and that fitters use more of an "average of shot results" (including well struck as well as mishits), as criteria to recommend club specs?

 

[JB]

I thought fitters used the customer's best shots for distance, spin, launch, ball speed, trajectory etc... and then recommended the club specs which were used to produce those shots.
Are you writing that my assumption above is wrong, and that fitters use more of an "average of shot results" (including well struck as well as mishits), as criteria to recommend club specs?

Yes, I am writing that your assumption is wrong. Will they kick out a complete miss? Sure, that would only make perfect sense. In fact one of the best parts of a fitting is trying to work towards something that helps promote center contact. if you are only analyzing shots that have that already, it really wouldn't be all that useful.

 

[Release]

I guess my observations are different than your. For example,In my regular group of 24 or so players about 10 can and do routinely shoot between 69 and 75. It's common for any of these relatively well skilled players to hit fairways and greens, parring the first several holes and then maybe on the 7th hole tee box get a little quick with their tempo or transition and hook a shot. Maybe then on the next tee box they're still thinking about the hole before and they overcompensate when trying to avoid another hook, so they block it right.
They manage to finish with a score of 73 that day but along the way they made some poor swings, missing some fairways and greens.
For good players, including on Tour, my observation is that the difference between the best shots and not so good ones is usually related to tempo and transition. Sometimes the change is caused by wind, sometimes by fatigue, sometimes by anger at having previously misplayed a shot etc...
So my OP question is about how the equipment fitting process factors in the tempo-transition changes that happen to a players swing throughout the round, and that's for the best skilled players. For higher handicap players it's more than just tempo-transition factors that change, as this segment of players usually actually has different swing planes and swing paths happening throughout the round.

No two golf swings are exactly the same, if you're measuring with scientific precision. Even the best ball striker will have a different golf day or even a different golf hour.
What a better golfer can do, is to manage the variables. Play with what you have that day....... as they would find out on the driving range prior to the tournament round.
And if a golfer does not even have a relatively repeatable golf swing like you stated, equipment fitting will be of minimal benefit for the effort.
Play with what you have. If you try to change your tempo during a round of golf, then you're a much better golfer than you think you are, with tough as steel concentration.



























Even with a smooth tempo, it can be hurried just like any other.

 

[DG_1234]

Play with what you have. If you try to change your tempo during a round of golf, then you're a much better golfer than you think you are, with tough as steel concentration.

Even with a smooth tempo, it can be hurried just like any other

I am not suggesting myself (or any other player) makes a conscious effort to change their tempo during the round. I am saying that (due to factors such as temperature, wind, anger at a previous shot, fatigue etc...) players tempos and pace of transitions do change during the round.
How this topic relates to current equipment fitting technique methods I don't really know. JB has posted to this thread that competent fitters analyze a range of shot results (not just the very best shots-swings).
For my own game I know that particular driver shafts give me sensational shot results when I make my best smooth tempo-smooth transition swings. But a more stout shaft driver shaft gives me the best shot results when I make faster paced-harder transition swings. About 75% of the time, for example 7 out of 10 driver tee shots, I can do the smooth tempo-smooth transition swing, so shafts that work best for that swing is what I have in my bag. It would be great to find one shaft that produces excellent shots no matter what the swing's tempo-transition, but I don't think that is a realistic expectation.

 

[Release]

I am not suggesting myself (or any other player) makes a conscious effort to change their tempo during the round. I am saying that (due to factors such as temperature, wind, anger at a previous shot, fatigue etc...) players tempos and pace of transitions do change during the round.
How this topic relates to current equipment fitting technique methods I don't really know. JB has posted to this thread that competent fitters analyze a range of shot results (not just the very best shots-swings).
For my own game I know that particular driver shafts give me sensational shot results when I make my best smooth tempo-smooth transition swings. But a more stout shaft driver shaft gives me the best shot results when I make faster paced-harder transition swings. About 75% of the time, for example 7 out of 10 driver tee shots, I can do the smooth tempo-smooth transition swing, so shafts that work best for that swing is what I have in my bag. It would be great to find one shaft that produces excellent shots no matter what the swing's tempo-transition, but I don't think that is a realistic expectation.

You were right about the Club fitters out there. Some are younger than my kids and just how much experience they could accumulate in such a short time ? Not to knock off everyone, there are some very young and very good fitters, because they had been involved in the game since they were very young. But these a few and far in between.
Analyzing a range of shot for fitting is better than just using the best results, of course, however, no one can predict the change in a golfer's physical condition from day to day.
An old story. A veteran PGA golfer stated that he would go to the driving range and find his game for the day. Some days he feels good, can perform all the shots without much an issue, some days his old injury bother him so that day a fade would be easier to perform than a draw.
When we get up there in age, our body is different from day to day. There is no consistency because the physical condition changes. Again, the better golfer knows to use what he has for the day to navigate around the golf course.
A quote from Jack Nicklaus, he had won many of his winnings without his A game.
So an expectation of comparing this game to something as reliable as flip on the light switch would be unrealistic.
That's exactly why this game is so charming and easy to be hooked on for life.
You seemed to be a good golfer hitting 70% of the fairway, some impressive stats.

 

[DG_1234]

Analyzing a range of shot for fitting is better than just using the best results, of course, however, no one can predict the change in a golfer's physical condition from day to day.

I agree physical state does change a bit from day to day, as does weather temperature, wind, the player's state of mind etc... Also the golf course conditions including types of lies
may change from round to round.
I've questioned the merits of indoor fittings from level synthetic mat lies. This is so far removed from actual golf course conditions and play, including striking a dozen shots or more consecutively with the same club. For example, while on a golf course a guy might swing driver 12 times, but those swings are separated by 15 to 30 minutes time spent standing, walking, playing the other clubs within the bag , putting etc..... So if the fitting process involves standing in an indoor studio or driving range stall striking driver after driver, I question how realistic that is to simulating real playing conditions. Interspersing driver shots in with all the other types of golf shots and putts is a significant part of the game that I think me get lost during the traditional fitting process. Nowhere on the course does someone stand in one place while swinging the same club over and over again.
A more sensible method of fitting (though not practical) might to be take one or two potential driver configurations out on the golf course, play a round of golf, the repeat the process another day with one or two more configurations,, and eventually the player will find a driver with specs that are a good fit for his/her game.

 

[JB]

I agree physical state does change a bit from day to day, as does weather temperature, wind, the player's state of mind etc... Also the golf course conditions including types of lies
may change from round to round.
I've questioned the merits of indoor fittings from level synthetic mat lies. This is so far removed from actual golf course conditions and play, including striking a dozen shots or more consecutively with the same club. For example, while on a golf course a guy might swing driver 12 times, but those swings are separated by 15 to 30 minutes time spent standing, walking, playing the other clubs within the bag , putting etc..... So if the fitting process involves standing in an indoor studio or driving range stall striking driver after driver, I question how realistic that is to simulating real playing conditions. Interspersing driver shots in with all the other types of golf shots and putts is a significant part of the game that I think me get lost during the traditional fitting process. Nowhere on the course does someone stand in one place while swinging the same club over and over again.
A more sensible method of fitting (though not practical) might to be take one or two potential driver configurations out on the golf course, play a round of golf, the repeat the process another day with one or two more configurations,, and eventually the player will find a driver with specs that are a good fit for his/her game.

You have made it very clear you do not believe fittings work. Those who actually go through them for the most part seem to disagree.

 

[tahoebum]

When the temperature gets cold I have the opposite problem, my swing gets slower and I switch to a slightly softer shaft. It may not be enough of a difference to really matter but I have extra shafts and in my head it makes a difference. No doubt the golf ball performs differently on a morning like today when it will be high 30’s when I tee off and a maybe 42* at the end of my round. It’s always a little tougher swinging with 3 layers on.

 

[tahoebum]

I agree physical state does change a bit from day to day, as does weather temperature, wind, the player's state of mind etc... Also the golf course conditions including types of lies
may change from round to round.
I've questioned the merits of indoor fittings from level synthetic mat lies. This is so far removed from actual golf course conditions and play, including striking a dozen shots or more consecutively with the same club. For example, while on a golf course a guy might swing driver 12 times, but those swings are separated by 15 to 30 minutes time spent standing, walking, playing the other clubs within the bag , putting etc..... So if the fitting process involves standing in an indoor studio or driving range stall striking driver after driver, I question how realistic that is to simulating real playing conditions. Interspersing driver shots in with all the other types of golf shots and putts is a significant part of the game that I think me get lost during the traditional fitting process. Nowhere on the course does someone stand in one place while swinging the same club over and over again.
A more sensible method of fitting (though not practical) might to be take one or two potential driver configurations out on the golf course, play a round of golf, the repeat the process another day with one or two more configurations,, and eventually the player will find a driver with specs that are a good fit for his/her game.

From my experience fittings can quickly eliminate shafts that don’t work and allow me to much more quickly dial in a few clubhead/shaft combinations that do work well. I can often eliminate a shaft in two or three swings on a Trackman. After I’ve narrowed it down to a clubhead/shaft that gives me good numbers, I always play it on the course to fine tune things but the advent of launch monitors has made it 50 times easier and faster.

 

[Release]

I agree physical state does change a bit from day to day, as does weather temperature, wind, the player's state of mind etc... Also the golf course conditions including types of lies
may change from round to round.
I've questioned the merits of indoor fittings from level synthetic mat lies. This is so far removed from actual golf course conditions and play, including striking a dozen shots or more consecutively with the same club. For example, while on a golf course a guy might swing driver 12 times, but those swings are separated by 15 to 30 minutes time spent standing, walking, playing the other clubs within the bag , putting etc..... So if the fitting process involves standing in an indoor studio or driving range stall striking driver after driver, I question how realistic that is to simulating real playing conditions. Interspersing driver shots in with all the other types of golf shots and putts is a significant part of the game that I think me get lost during the traditional fitting process. Nowhere on the course does someone stand in one place while swinging the same club over and over again.
A more sensible method of fitting (though not practical) might to be take one or two potential driver configurations out on the golf course, play a round of golf, the repeat the process another day with one or two more configurations,, and eventually the player will find a driver with specs that are a good fit for his/her game.

Insightful thought.
The current fitting system is the best we have had since the inventing of sliced bread. It's not perfect but the process really narrowed down the fitting from weeks into hours.
Not perfect as most the information we gather on the internet ( the information highway ) but the best we have thus far.
The current fitting system is to get the baseline fitted to a golfer at best, then the golfer will need to find ways the fine tune the fitting. Don't forget, human is able to adapt quickly to changing situation. For a golfer, may that be the weather, the state of physical condition, the changing of the equipment..... Expecting the equipment dominating the game is not realistic. Should be the other way around where the athletes determine the outcome, and the better fitted equipment is to assist in the completion of the process.
I often wonder of the wisdom for the average golfers to copy the equipment the professionals use, I guess it's no difference than wearing a sports jersey with their favorite athlete's name/number, team logo.
One of our local fitter understand this, he offers the better golfers return trips ( for short tuning ). For the lie and loft adjustment he offers lifetime adjustment.
At least at this one place I used to frequent some time ago, the fitting is a weeks long process. By establishing a base line single club. Through selection of shaft, adjustment to loft/lie, grip size........ then have the golfer used the club for awhile for fine tuning. Expending from this baseline club to the rest of the set, one golf club at a time. The golfer can stop at anytime they wish or completing the whole set.
The fitting is not just mounted on the L/M for an hour then adjust the whole set of clubs and be done with it until next year.
Does the average golfer needing the detailed fitting ? Not really because for an averaged golfer, no noticeable difference between a detailed fitting and a mass produced result.
At least one of our local fitting center is using the L/M on a driving range, they own the equipment store, the driving range , and the fitting center all at the same location. The golfers will have the benefit of modern technology providing data while be able to witness the ball flight. Sorry, still hitting off a flat surfaced mat for the fitting.
Decades ago, we had a driving range built on the undulating grounds, there were sloped area mixed with the flat hitting stall. Never seen another one like that in the next 40 years. What a place to practice golf shot off the uneven lies.