Question for True Motion about chipping/pitching

[MWard]

Hello True Motion!

Welcome to THP. I thought I'd start with what I hope is a relatively easy question for you as you get familiar with the forum. Around the greens, we're told to try and get the ball rolling as quickly as possible, in a way to avoid errors. Well, I'm having trouble with that. When I try and get them rolling like a putt, I can't gauge the spin whatsoever. A 50 or 54 wedge played low to run will either check and sputter, or land on the first bounce with that "spinning" sound like it's going to bite, and then laugh at me as it releases. The only way I'm finding I can be consistent is throwing it in the air, because for some reason, the ones that fly 50-75% of the way there don't spin much at all, they look like they're just floating.

Any suggestions? Grooves are clean (clean'ish haha) and the ball is always something urethane.

 

[TrueMotionTim]

First off we’re excited to be here! As a rule of thumb, if you can’t control the spin its probably because you are coming into the ball with to much leading edge. On a bump and run, instead of playing it back in your stance and hands way ahead, try playing the ball more middle of your stance, weight still 55/45 favoring the left side for a right handed golfer. Try and get the hands even or slightly behind the ball. This will allow you to use the bounce of the club. I like using a PW for these shots. The motion is still a putting stroke, the cool thing is you don’t have to hit it perfect. The more lofted the club the further you have to fly the ball to land on your desired target. Hope that helps

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Hello True Motion!

Welcome to THP. I thought I'd start with what I hope is a relatively easy question for you as you get familiar with the forum. Around the greens, we're told to try and get the ball rolling as quickly as possible, in a way to avoid errors. Well, I'm having trouble with that. When I try and get them rolling like a putt, I can't gauge the spin whatsoever. A 50 or 54 wedge played low to run will either check and sputter, or land on the first bounce with that "spinning" sound like it's going to bite, and then laugh at me as it releases. The only way I'm finding I can be consistent is throwing it in the air, because for some reason, the ones that fly 50-75% of the way there don't spin much at all, they look like they're just floating.

Any suggestions? Grooves are clean (clean'ish haha) and the ball is always something urethane.

Thanks for the Question MWard...and yes, it's easy, but complicated. Ha!

Here goes my man: As you will start to learn with Tim or I, we go through the same checkpoints when we see something that isn't ideal. We also try to make things as simple as possible. We can go deep, but we find that doesn't get results as fast, or it depends on the player. And we ask a lot of questions before we start giving your "advice"...questions are deep.

What kind of lag putts are you leaving yourself when throwing it in the air using your most consistent technique? OR, Do you happen to know your UP & Down %? Because if you tell me it's anything north of 50% or 60%, conversation is over, stop reading NOW!

Assuming your UP & Down% is south of 50%, or you want to add a weapon in your shot making arsenal; you can improve, so let's try and diversify your options (don't forget to read the disclaimer at the end )

First we want to Diagnose the root cause(s) of your particular issue. For chipping, we want to see how the following might be affecting the loft & speed you deliver to the ball:

1. How is your SetUp? Are you centered & balanced (front/back, & left/right), and for a chip, do you have a little weight to your lead side?
2. Where is the ball position? Center, Back (how far), Forward (how far)?
3. What is your angle of attack? or What loft are you delivering at impact? i.e. do you hinge your wrists early, or not? Do you drag the handle and have your hands forward at impact? Does this change? [This one is probably the issue, if all else is good to go...but I'm totally guessing.]
4. What is the length of your stroke? and does it fit the roll you need? Also, what club(s) other than 50/54 are you using? For me, I have ratios that I use...so if I have my 54 out, I know that if I fly that (with a stock chip) on the green 10 yards, it will roll out 10 yards on a FLAT surface.
5. How fast are you swinging? We can hit three different chips (or more) with differing paces through the shot.
6. Do you release the club with your hands or turn through the shot?
7. Do you pick a spot to land the ball? Do you adjust for up/downhill chips? Do you assess how far you want it to roll in your mind? & Do you know what clubs will roll out, and how much? (see #4)

Disclaimer: Once we determine a root cause, and what you need to work on, make sure you video what you're doing, try the new motion pattern, and then go out and play around with it and practice when you get it right. Don't throw a ton of balls down and bang away, split your practice into three quadrants. 1) Technique with video, 2) Feels & 3) Targets

 

[Turtlerancher]

Thanks for the Question MWard...and yes, it's easy, but complicated. Ha!

Here goes my man: As you will start to learn with Tim or I, we go through the same checkpoints when we see something that isn't ideal. We also try to make things as simple as possible. We can go deep, but we find that doesn't get results as fast, or it depends on the player. And we ask a lot of questions before we start giving your "advice"...questions are deep.

What kind of lag putts are you leaving yourself when throwing it in the air using your most consistent technique? OR, Do you happen to know your UP & Down %? Because if you tell me it's anything north of 50% or 60%, conversation is over, stop reading NOW!

Assuming your UP & Down% is south of 50%, or you want to add a weapon in your shot making arsenal; you can improve, so let's try and diversify your options (don't forget to read the disclaimer at the end )

First we want to Diagnose the root cause(s) of your particular issue. For chipping, we want to see how the following might be affecting the loft & speed you deliver to the ball:

1. How is your SetUp? Are you centered & balanced (front/back, & left/right), and for a chip, do you have a little weight to your lead side?
2. Where is the ball position? Center, Back (how far), Forward (how far)?
3. What is your angle of attack? or What loft are you delivering at impact? i.e. do you hinge your wrists early, or not? Do you drag the handle and have your hands forward at impact? Does this change? [This one is probably the issue, if all else is good to go...but I'm totally guessing.]
4. What is the length of your stroke? and does it fit the roll you need? Also, what club(s) other than 50/54 are you using? For me, I have ratios that I use...so if I have my 54 out, I know that if I fly that (with a stock chip) on the green 10 yards, it will roll out 10 yards on a FLAT surface.
5. How fast are you swinging? We can hit three different chips (or more) with differing paces through the shot.
6. Do you release the club with your hands or turn through the shot?
7. Do you pick a spot to land the ball? Do you adjust for up/downhill chips? Do you assess how far you want it to roll in your mind? & Do you know what clubs will roll out, and how much? (see #4)

Disclaimer: Once we determine a root cause, and what you need to work on, make sure you video what you're doing, try the new motion pattern, and then go out and play around with it and practice when you get it right. Don't throw a ton of balls down and bang away, split your practice into three quadrants. 1) Technique with video, 2) Feels & 3) Targets

Wow, so many things to think about on a simple chip shot that never came to my feeble mind! I love it! Thank you @MattStrube !

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Wow, so many things to think about on a simple chip shot that never came to my feeble mind! I love it! Thank you @MattStrube !

We still haven't figured out why you're doing it. I talked to Tim last night, and it's funny that we independently responded within a few minutes of each other (we're obviously new to golf forums) But as Tim mentioned, and I guessed, we both feel that the bulk of your issues are #3, which could be affected by #s 1, 2, 5, & 6, and possibly 4, sorry, I couldn't resist, but it's true. Hahahaha! ...we really want to make sure we understand what's happening before we go fixing stuff.

Text me a video of you chipping a ball Face On & Down the Line. Hit me up on DM and I'll send you my number.

And as far as 'so many things to think about', Please see the Disclaimer at the very end...the ultimate goal is to start thinking about targets, and that's IT.

 

[MWard]

Well that was more detailed than I was expecting HAHAHA!

I’ll video for you on Saturday, let you see what you’re working with. Up and down percentage is definitely nowhere near 50%, so there’s not much internet golfer in that one. DTL and FO, do you want regular speed or 210FPS? @TrueMotionGolf_Matt

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

As long as you shoot it outdoors with a newer iPhone, it should be fine.

 

[Molten]

Well now. Have a day, True Motion. Talk about engagement.

 

[MWard]

@TrueMotionMatt Here’s a likely terrible rendition, but I’m not sure what angle works best for you. Full disclosure, I realized while replaying back, that the ball placement example for the low trajectory is way wrong. Picture it if you can, a ball back from where the middle trajectory is. I got a bit lost in where to stand apparently haha

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Can you shoot same shots with the camera face on for me? I need to see how the handle is being returned to the ball but here’s some things to think about and try...have fun experimenting:

What was goal with ball way back? It’s Waaay too far back for my taste. I mean you can keep doing it that way if you want, but your margin for error is so small with that far back ball placement, and you are exposing the leading edge (difficult to control) and not using bounce to your advantage. Simplify your life my man! Keep it centered.

It looks like your technique is pretty darn solid otherwise (still need to see FO), as far as how you turn through the ball, I love how you keep turning.

I would like to see your ball position more centered and then move it at most one ball forward to one back, that will let you better judge distance and spin. I would also like to see a touch less upper body and a little surfing with your legs to control launch. But I want to see FO to confirm. We also have students add varying grip pressure to control the face and acceleration but that’s tough to explain without our video. Let’s table pressure for now.

Try these two shots and report back :

1. Try to put it one ball back of center, pick a spot on the green try to land it on a couple yards and let it roll to see how far each club rolls out. Go from LW to 8-iron and test roll out. (That shot u sent looks downhill so mind that as well.) that’s how you hit that low roller. Also try to fly it on different distances and watch roll out. For me, I can land my LW on and it will typically roll half the distance I flew it. On a flat green. So 2:1, my SW will fly 10 yds and roll 10, so 1:1,GW is 1:2, etc. You have to calibrate your distances and roll out.

2. To hit a little nipper, that spins a ton, open up your body and club face and come across it you turning. Keep your same technique. Try to fly one to five feet and see how it spins. The more aggressive you swing left the more spin you’ll get. You have the technique, just adjust how much you open to control spin and how much face is open to control direction, start with 20 degrees and vary it. Try different wedges. For that lie you have pick something with a bit less bounce. And if the rough is thicker choose same technique but more bounce wedge.

 

[Jman]

What. A. Reply.

This is amazing, for real. Very very cool!!!!

 

[McLovin]

 

[MWard]

Can you shoot same shots with the camera face on for me? I need to see how the handle is being returned to the ball but here’s some things to think about and try...have fun experimenting:

What was goal with ball way back? It’s Waaay too far back for my taste. I mean you can keep doing it that way if you want, but your margin for error is so small with that far back ball placement, and you are exposing the leading edge (difficult to control) and not using bounce to your advantage. Simplify your life my man! Keep it centered.

It looks like your technique is pretty darn solid otherwise (still need to see FO), as far as how you turn through the ball, I love how you keep turning.

I would like to see your ball position more centered and then move it at most one ball forward to one back, that will let you better judge distance and spin. I would also like to see a touch less upper body and a little surfing with your legs to control launch. But I want to see FO to confirm. We also have students add varying grip pressure to control the face and acceleration but that’s tough to explain without our video. Let’s table pressure for now.

Try these two shots and report back :

1. Try to put it one ball back of center, pick a spot on the green try to land it on a couple yards and let it roll to see how far each club rolls out. Go from LW to 8-iron and test roll out. (That shot u sent looks downhill so mind that as well.) that’s how you hit that low roller. Also try to fly it on different distances and watch roll out. For me, I can land my LW on and it will typically roll half the distance I flew it. On a flat green. So 2:1, my SW will fly 10 yds and roll 10, so 1:1,GW is 1:2, etc. You have to calibrate your distances and roll out.

2. To hit a little nipper, that spins a ton, open up your body and club face and come across it you turning. Keep your same technique. Try to fly one to five feet and see how it spins. The more aggressive you swing left the more spin you’ll get. You have the technique, just adjust how much you open to control spin and how much face is open to control direction, start with 20 degrees and vary it. Try different wedges. For that lie you have pick something with a bit less bounce. And if the rough is thicker choose same technique but more bounce wedge.

I think the camera angle got me a bit on the low one. I assure you it's not looking like it's off my right pinky toe haha. I'll see if I can update with a face on view today, don't think you need to see the trajectory at this point.

To confirm the surfing comment, you're saying drive it more with the lower body pivot more than upper body yes? And just vary distance by pivoting softer? (My weakness, I only have like one gear with my pivot and that's hard haha)

 

[Flipit]

Good stuff for sure. Looking forward to expanding on this opportunity.

 

[Flipit]

For a period of time I was using a 8-9 iron and a putting stroke for these types of shots. Meaning maybe 8 ft from the green and 20ft to the pin from the edge of the green. Oddly enough it seemed Id top 50% of those attempts for some reason or another. Maybe not completely top it, perhaps blade it is a better description. Due to that I went back to a 56 or 60 degree similar to what @MWard is doing here.

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

I think the camera angle got me a bit on the low one. I assure you it's not looking like it's off my right pinky toe haha. I'll see if I can update with a face on view today, don't think you need to see the trajectory at this point.

I wouldn’t worry about Traj on little chips and pitches. I was a little confused why you explained what you were doing that way to be honest. I’m looking at your technique and how you add/takeaway speed, manipulate loft (add/takeaway spin), and the length of your swing. They were mostly all the same for each shot but you explained three different shots.

I don’t want more lower than upper. You always want to keep rotating and your feel of opening up with the upper is a good one. You control the speed at which you rotate with both the upper AND lower body surf. Speed and AoA adds spin and coming across the ball!! Some people feel the lower body and some don’t.

I think for you, trying to vary your upper body speed isn’t quite working, Sooooo, I think YOU may need to feel the lower body surf a little to the left when u want it to check up and less when you want it to run.

Experiment with changing SetUp, clubs & ratios 1st, speed & surf aggressiveness 2nd...THATs how I want you to control distance, in that order. Make sure you start with the ball in the middle first then vary it forward to back a half a ball and then one.

Now, I can put the ball way back and make good contact but I never do because I don’t need to in order to control spin and roll out.

Not a ton of surf at first, just feel an inch or so at first. Then add a little by little.

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

For a period of time I was using a 8-9 iron and a putting stroke for these types of shots. Meaning maybe 8 ft from the green and 20ft to the pin from the edge of the green. Oddly enough it seemed Id top 50% of those attempts for some reason or another. Maybe not completely top it, perhaps blade it is a better description. Due to that I went back to a 56 or 60 degree similar to what @MWard is doing here.

Sounds like too far back ball position. Anyone can chip.

 

[MWard]

I wouldn’t worry about Traj on little chips and pitches. I was a little confused why you explained what you were doing that way to be honest. I’m looking at your technique and how you add/takeaway speed, manipulate loft (add/takeaway spin), and the length of your swing. They were mostly all the same for each shot but you explained three different shots.

I don’t want more lower than upper. You always want to keep rotating and your feel of opening up with the upper is a good one. You control the speed at which you rotate with both the upper AND lower body surf. Speed and AoA adds spin and coming across the ball!! Some people feel the lower body and some don’t.

I think for you, trying to vary your upper body speed isn’t quite working, Sooooo, I think YOU may need to feel the lower body surf a little to the left when u want it to check up and less when you want it to run.

Experiment with changing SetUp, clubs & ratios 1st, speed & surf aggressiveness 2nd...THATs how I want you to control distance, in that order. Make sure you start with the ball in the middle first then vary it forward to back a half a ball and then one.

Now, I can put the ball way back and make good contact but I never do because I don’t need to in order to control spin and roll out.

Not a ton of surf at first, just feel an inch or so at first. Then add a little by little.

That all makes sense. Okay, let me get you a FO video later this afternoon and give you some better info to work with.

The trajectory changes was more to show you that I seemingly have more control with the middle and high trajectory chip shots then I do the low chipping runs. The little ones will sometimes check and make me feel kind of dumb, and then not check when I want them to feel even dumber haha!

 

[blueonblack]

Hello True Motion!

Welcome to THP. I thought I'd start with what I hope is a relatively easy question for you as you get familiar with the forum. Around the greens, we're told to try and get the ball rolling as quickly as possible, in a way to avoid errors. Well, I'm having trouble with that. When I try and get them rolling like a putt, I can't gauge the spin whatsoever. A 50 or 54 wedge played low to run will either check and sputter, or land on the first bounce with that "spinning" sound like it's going to bite, and then laugh at me as it releases. The only way I'm finding I can be consistent is throwing it in the air, because for some reason, the ones that fly 50-75% of the way there don't spin much at all, they look like they're just floating.

Any suggestions? Grooves are clean (clean'ish haha) and the ball is always something urethane.

Is this out of deep rough or off of the fringe around the greens?
Not sure what kind of lie you're talking about. We need to know that.

Deep rough you're basically trying to gauge the release. If those check, ya made great contact (often by accident for most of us.)
It's that much harder to make good contact and keep the speed through impact on the shorter shots. Probably some deceleration going on with the shorter ones? If ya kinda stub it/don't follow through, those can grab, especially if you de-loft at impact. That advice adbout keeping the hands even or back is spot on from the Trumotion folks, IMO. Watch your shaft angle and try different angles to see how that affects how the bounce comes through the impact zone. Once you really start to master using bounce, all these shots become easier.

Off the fringe, I like maybe a hybrid to give it a little loft and then get it rolling. But that's usually if the lie is too iffy to get the clubhead on the back of the ball with a wedge really cleanly. 50 or 54 is probably just too much loft unless you intentionally de-loft for these shots if you need roll out.

 

[MWard]

Hope that’s a bit better. Went with a low runner, and two mid shots. None of them carried more than about 10yds @TrueMotionMatt

 

[Desmond]

Nice work. Don't know what the guys will say, but I'd have the shaft more straight up and down and more in the middle of the stance to engage the bounce. Good luck.

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

As suspected, your SetUp is off. You are exposing the leading edge and not using bounce. This is why you are not consistent.

• Get the ball forward on the longer yellow line and feel like The shaft is straight up and down at SetUp
• Return the shaft back to the shorter yellow line and surf more left.
• Red lines are not good.
  

 

[Flipit]

Sounds like too far back ball position. Anyone can chip.

I’ll make an adjustment and see what happens.

 

[MWard]

As suspected, your SetUp is off. You are exposing the leading edge and not using bounce. This is why you are not consistent.

• Get the ball forward on the longer yellow line and feel like The shaft is straight up and down at SetUp
• Return the shaft back to the shorter yellow line and surf more left.
• Red lines are not good.
  View attachment 8952085

Checks out. Might explain why I feel like when the ball placement is off my left heel, I chip the best. When really, it's more center of my stance and I can actually get the damn bounce working.

Appreciate the quick tuneup sir!

 

[McLovin]

surf?