Relief from Divot Rule?

[Elbow Jobertski]

No, you're supposed to use your skill as a golfer to extract yourself from some bad luck. The problem is, most golfers think because they hit the fairway, they "deserve" par or better. We don't deserve anything. Sometimes an outstanding bogie or double is the best you can do.



If you get a sidehill lie when your competitor is on a flat lie, do you deserve his lie? If your ball rolls in front of a weed on the fairway, should you get to pull the weed because your competitor has no such issue? If you hit a sprinkler head in the fairway and bounce OB, should you get to put the ball back in the fairway? Or wait a minute - what if your ball is rolling towards the lake, but happens to hit a particularly big divot which kills all the energy and it stops short, but your competitor's ball hits no such divot and goes in. Should he get to pull his ball out of the lake or should you have to throw yours in?

I'm with you on all of this.

The thing that makes me wonder is whether my handicap is inflated because I play poorly maintained courses and play out of a lot of squirrely if not outright gruesome lies. I don't think that sort of thing gets reflected in the course ratings. That stuff is part of the fun as far as I'm concerned. There is nothing more gratifying than drawing a just weird lie and inventing a shot. I do seem to have lower differentials on the better maintained courses and I almost feel like I'm sandbagging.

I get that people get wrapped up in scoring fairness and I guess it takes all kinds. I just sort of wish they could have a different set of rules so we can all stop kidding ourselves about this sort of thing.

 

[Evolvingwildes]

No, you're supposed to use your skill as a golfer to extract yourself from some bad luck. The problem is, most golfers think because they hit the fairway, they "deserve" par or better. We don't deserve anything. Sometimes an outstanding bogie or double is the best you can do.

If you get a sidehill lie when your competitor is on a flat lie, do you deserve his lie? If your ball rolls in front of a weed on the fairway, should you get to pull the weed because your competitor has no such issue? If you hit a sprinkler head in the fairway and bounce OB, should you get to put the ball back in the fairway? Or wait a minute - what if your ball is rolling towards the lake, but happens to hit a particularly big divot which kills all the energy and it stops short, but your competitor's ball hits no such divot and goes in. Should he get to pull his ball out of the lake or should you have to throw yours in?

I definitely get what you're saying, but still feel that you should get to lift-clean-place in the fairway. If two competitors hit the exact same tee shot in back-to-back groupings, the second player now ends up in a divot where the first player got a perfect lie. That has nothing to do with the course setup or course management, that's just incredibly bad luck and not fair to the second player, who did everything correctly in that situation.

What I'm failing to understand is how so many people are advocating for "play it as it lies" in the fairway, but are fine with the other ways that entitle a player to free relief. You get relief from embedded lies (even in the rough), cart paths and sprinklers (even when it's just your stance), animal holes and "dangerous" animal conditions. Why shouldn't I have to play from any of these obstacles then?

 

[tahoebum]

I prefer no divot rule but to answer the question. I'd only allow it if the ball was resting deep in a divot, let's say the midpoint of the ball. The player and his competitor would have to both agee and they could use another golf ball placed next to the ball in play to determine if the midpoint of the ball was below the adjacent grass surface. If no agreement could be reached, play it as it lies.

 

[Joshnoble01]

I think to successfully implement it you have to make it a partner agrees that it is a divot and provides relief and it has to be in the fairway for amatuer rounds.

For PGA tour event and pros it is easy. Have a rule official with each group or on each hole and they make the determination. I actually think the same hole is a better solution so that it is consistently applied. If each group has a rules official one official might have a different opinion on what is a divot. If it is the same hole then at least everyone gets consistent opinions on each hole.

 

[wadesworld]

What I'm failing to understand is how so many people are advocating for "play it as it lies" in the fairway, but are fine with the other ways that entitle a player to free relief. You get relief from embedded lies (even in the rough), cart paths and sprinklers (even when it's just your stance), animal holes and "dangerous" animal conditions. Why shouldn't I have to play from any of these obstacles then?

Because the rules of golf try to make some sensible allowances. for unusual or unnatural conditions. The challenge with divots is defining what divots count and what divots don't. Divots are neither unusual or unnatural on a golf course.

While I've never asked any of the USGA folks, my assumption is the embedded ball rule exists because when conditions are prime for balls to be embedded, they will frequently be embedded so deep as to make a stroke impractical. To be consistent, they allow for all embedded balls rather than trying enforce something like "if the entire circumference of the ball is is embedded to a depth of 7/16'ths of an inch or greater.."

 

[Elbow Jobertski]

I don't get the magical status of the fairway. It gets you a better chance at a good lie and that's about it. I'm fine with people who drive the ball straighter than me get an advantage, but wanting even more special treatment than being in short grass is warping the game in their favor.

I think I may have been 14 before I played a course with a defined fairway. I still play a lot that don't. Do I get drops from all divots under this rule or no divots?

 

[Nick20UK]

I'd be all for treating divots as embedded balls as they're technically sitting under the fairway around it.

Just not in the rough.

 

[Hitsnmisses]

I blame JB , for this,hypothetical , lmao it’s a Pandora’s box , of Can I haves ….

The game shouldn’t change a rule simply because a ball lands in what is inconvenient timing as the natural turf , has not fully repaired itself ….

The previous generations played the game on less manicured surfaces , and the rule / regulation was followed .

We can have bifurcation of rules for pga and the masses on this .

Equally if we don’t have delineated fairways on many courses , how would you define boundaries ?

It’s a divot of decisions lol, and what ever way is chosen , another set of issues will arise.

Having stood the test of time, inasmuch as l offered a alternative in previous submission, after reading the replies and interpretations . Glad we are talking hypothetical.

 

[WLG1952]

I

I disagree it’s not ground under repair until it’s marked GUR , until that point in time it’s still the course as is found …
Cant understand the logic that if you hit it down the middle and it ends up in divot you should get to move it ,what happens if you didn’t see a obscured bunker in middle of fairway , do you get same favourable treatment …

The addition of a fairway divot to the gur rule, would make the fairway divot gur. It wouldn"t need to be marked as gur.

I

I disagree it’s not ground under repair until it’s marked GUR , until that point in time it’s still the course as is found …
Cant understand the logic that if you hit it down the middle and it ends up in divot you should get to move it ,what happens if you didn’t see a obscured bunker in middle of fairway , do you get same favourable treatment …

 

[Canadan]

I don't get the magical status of the fairway. It gets you a better chance at a good lie and that's about it. I'm fine with people who drive the ball straighter than me get an advantage, but wanting even more special treatment than being in short grass is warping the game in their favor.

I think I may have been 14 before I played a course with a defined fairway. I still play a lot that don't. Do I get drops from all divots under this rule or no divots?

magical status of a what, sorry? Did you say divot, or mini bunker, or fairway?

The design of the course is not 'short cut grass with a bunch of unintended holes in it' on the fairway. It's ground that is under repair.

 

[Hitsnmisses]

magical status of a what, sorry? Did you say divot, or mini bunker, or fairway?

The design of the course is not 'short cut grass with a bunch of unintended holes in it' on the fairway. It's ground that is under repair.

Are you saying the course is gur ? By above statement , I am a little confused

 

[Canadan]

Are you saying the course is gur ? By above statement , I am a little confused

a fairway is a fairway, until someone puts a hole in it.

Then the ground is, by definition, under repair.

 

[Hitsnmisses]

I definitely get what you're saying, but still feel that you should get to lift-clean-place in the fairway. If two competitors hit the exact same tee shot in back-to-back groupings, the second player now ends up in a divot where the first player got a perfect lie. That has nothing to do with the course setup or course management, that's just incredibly bad luck and not fair to the second player, who did everything correctly in that situation.

What I'm failing to understand is how so many people are advocating for "play it as it lies" in the fairway, but are fine with the other ways that entitle a player to free relief. You get relief from embedded lies (even in the rough), cart paths and sprinklers (even when it's just your stance), animal holes and "dangerous" animal conditions. Why shouldn't I have to play from any of these obstacles then?

Because those conditions are embedded in the rules as they stand without alteration or amendment, as is the motto , play it as it lies at the end of the rule book.
what everyone is proposing, albeit with reference to the op proposition, is deviation and amendment, of existing .because this because that etc…..

 

[Hitsnmisses]

a fairway is a fairway, until someone puts a hole in it.

Then the ground is, by definition, under repair.

IMV the ground is only under repair , when it’s a delineated zone / space / area , by course management ,green keepers etc., and signage labels it as such GUR , because we the players call it does not make it so …. Until above .

 

[Canadan]

IMV the ground is only under repair , when it’s a delineated zone / space / area , by course management ,green keepers etc., and signage labels it as such GUR , because we the players call it does not make it so …. Until above .

define for me what it means for ground to be under repair, and explain (beyond a circled white line which is typically only done on large areas for tournament play) how that does not apply to every single divot.

It is quite literally the definition of ground (fairway) that is under repair.

 

[Hitsnmisses]

IMV the ground is only under repair , when it’s a delineated zone / space / area , by course management ,green keepers etc., and signage labels it as such GUR , because we the players call it does not make it so …. Until above .

lv

define for me what it means for ground to be under repair, and explain (beyond a circled white line which is typically only done on large areas for tournament play) how that does not apply to every single divot.

It is quite literally the definition of ground (fairway) that is under repair.
GUR marked areas lve come across in my games and they are certainly not tournament competition, they can be irrigation repairs , ground works ie returfed area that was barren and requires bedding in , or poisoned ground etc. and yes you will suggest that returfed area is no different to someone filling a divot with sand etc….

Except every circumstance , it’s determined by not you, the course officials / management, have decided it not you ,and it’s clearly labelled. You can’t make the game up as you go otherwise it’s subjective and that’s what we are talking about here , the hypothetical is to empower individuals to determine ball position , when as suggested many take sufficient liberties with the application of the rules of the game …

Imagine this, your playing in a group of 4 and a player says they are in a divot, improve their lie by moving it and play a stroke ,,, you can’t judge it because the evidence has been destroyed by the shot they made , it’s making a grey area where there isn’t already ,,,,

Or let’s remove all doubt let’s just use tees from start of hole to green as preferred method ,,,, that doesn’t damage the course…..

 

[Jimmy3864]

In respect to the definition of GUR, if in the middle of the fairway an area is staked/roped off and fresh sod or seed is laid then that is defined as GUR.

Similarly, a divot in the fairway, either sand, seed, divot or unfilled is an area that is similar in that it is in the process of growing back turf.

At my course every couple of weeks there is a crew that fills in every divot in fairways with fresh topsoil/sand/seed mix. I honestly feel guilty when I roll into one of these “repaired” divots because I know the grounds crew has tediously spent hours restoring the course. In a casual round I’ll just roll it out a few inches.

To answer JB’s original question I could see in competition disagreements on when a divot is fully repaired so in my opinion just play it where it lies. Sometimes you get good breaks, chalk this one as unfortunate and learn how to play it from the depression.

 

[Kenomikes]

Obviously one does not exist currently, but let's say you were put in charge of the USGA and R&A to create such a rule. That relief could be taken from a ball that lands in a divot.

How would you go about making it work as divots age and begin to return to normal? So it does not turn into an every bad lie gives relief?

Just roll all balls in fairway only with your club, no lift clean and place.

 

[JonMA1]

Why is it every time a potential rule thread pops up, the instant reaction from the naysayers is the extreme of "everyone will fluff every lie ever that evered"

Why can’t we all just have the same exact opinions?!!

 

[JohnSinVA]

No, you're supposed to use your skill as a golfer to extract yourself from some bad luck. The problem is, most golfers think because they hit the fairway, they "deserve" par or better. We don't deserve anything. Sometimes an outstanding bogie or double is the best you can do.

I’ll be frank here: the assertion that a golfer who hits the fairway thinks they “deserve” par or better is one of the most absurd things I have read in this or any other golf forum. In my years of playing with friends, strangers, and everyone in between not once have I encountered a golfer who felt they “deserved” par or better for a FIR. Now, I have met plenty, myself included, who feel they deserve a CHANCE to make par or better. Because, not unreasonably, they do expect to have a good lie from which to play their approach. That’s the course designer’s intended reward for hitting the fairway.

Because the rules of golf try to make some sensible allowances. for unusual or unnatural conditions. The challenge with divots is defining what divots count and what divots don't. Divots are neither unusual or unnatural on a golf course.

While I've never asked any of the USGA folks, my assumption is the embedded ball rule exists because when conditions are prime for balls to be embedded, they will frequently be embedded so deep as to make a stroke impractical. To be consistent, they allow for all embedded balls rather than trying enforce something like "if the entire circumference of the ball is is embedded to a depth of 7/16'ths of an inch or greater.."

I suspect the embedded ball rule was intended for the groundskeepers from having to repair Herculean attempts to advance embedded balls that wind up excavating huge chunks of ground. That being said, how is a wet course unnatural? Is rain not natural? What happened to playing the course as we find it? If the wind is gusting to 35 a golfer adjusts one’s game, why shouldn’t one be expected to adjust one’s game when the course is wet? Ball below the surface? Use your skill and extract yourself, or take the unplayable. Same thing for casual water, either play it out or take the penalty. It’s the course as you find it. Aren’t the “embedded ball” and “casual water” rules nothing more than exceptions to the established unplayable lie rule? As far as figuring out what is a divot and what is not, I thought golf was a game of integrity? Aren’t we supposed to trust our fellow golfers to penalize themselves? Between the examples under discussion here the embedded ball rule is far more ripe for abuse because it confers a much greater advantage of result. You could have a ball in 3 inch rough slightly below (as in 1/8”) the ground and get a full lift/place.

Since we’re supposed to say how we would create a rule I propose the “practice tee” rule. When hitting off a grass practice tee the player is encouraged to slowly lengthen divots by placing their next ball directly behind their previous divot. So, if a ball finds a fairway divot, filled or not, the player may place the ball directly behind said divot as closely as possible. This will yield a lie as intended without enabling a potential improvement, in stance, approach angle, etc.

 

[Canadan]

Why can’t we all just have the same exact opinions?!!

Who wants that?

 

[Joshnoble01]

Lift clean and place anywhere in the fairway. Should never be a penalty for hitting the ball in the fairway.

This is how you make the rule consistent and close any cheating issues. If you’re in the fairway you can lift clean and place. Simple. Hackers can’t screw that up. And it keeps with the spirit of the game. You’re supposed to be in the fairway. Most of us are playing munis that are hacked to pieces. Not sure why there is so much pushback to suggestions like this.

 

[wadesworld]

define for me what it means for ground to be under repair, and explain (beyond a circled white line which is typically only done on large areas for tournament play) how that does not apply to every single divot.

It is quite literally the definition of ground (fairway) that is under repair.

Sure. Ground under repair is ground that is literally under repair. The grounds crew has laid new sod, are installing new irrigation, etc. Or, it's an area of the course that has degraded so much due to weather conditions the grounds crew considers it unworthy of play and/or needs traffic kept off of it. Finally, it can also surround something like a fallen tree that the grounds crew hasn't had time to remove. In short, it defines areas of the course from which the grounds crew would rather you not play.

Divots are not unexpected on a golf course. They are not unnatural - meaning they're not an artificial object.

But, but, but - people will respond "why do we allow raking of bunkers and and repair of the green?" The bunker is only allowed to be raked after the shot is played. If another golfer leaves a huge footprint or (within reason) weather effects makes the shot difficult, you have to deal with it. The green is allowed to be repaired primarily for its protection and because it's intended to be a non-cratered surface on which to roll the ball. Spike marks would probably be the best argument, but I suspect the reasoning for now allowing their repair is the realization that there's so much traffic in one spot - around the hole.

The biggest argument would probably be borrowing animal holes. Those are natural and not unexpected, shy would a golfer get free relief from those? Probably two reasons: one, they're often so deep as to be unplayable, and two, some Scottsman along the way probably lost a hand.

 

[wadesworld]

I’ll be frank here: the assertion that a golfer who hits the fairway thinks they “deserve” par or better is one of the most absurd things I have read in this or any other golf forum. In my years of playing with friends, strangers, and everyone in between not once have I encountered a golfer who felt they “deserved” par or better for a FIR. Now, I have met plenty, myself included, who feel they deserve a CHANCE to make par or better. Because, not unreasonably, they do expect to have a good lie from which to play their approach. That’s the course designer’s intended reward for hitting the fairway.

So if you end up with a severe downhill lie in the fairway due to a drainage grate, that's unfair because the course designer intended you to have a good lie? Or if you ended up on a sidehill lie in the fairway, that's unfair because it's the fairway and you're supposed to have a good lie that gives you a chance for a good approach?

I'd say the course designer intends on the fairway to give you an opportunity for a good lie.

 

[Hitsnmisses]

Within the hypothetical l can’t understand the campaign of some to , let’s amend the rule ,,,,, and the suggestion of improving lie

So if you end up with a severe downhill lie in the fairway due to a drainage grate, that's unfair because the course designer intended you to have a good lie? Or if you ended up on a sidehill lie in the fairway, that's unfair because it's the fairway and you're supposed to have a good lie that gives you a chance for a good approach?

I'd say the course designer intends on the fairway to give you an opportunity for a good lie.

Not necessarily, finding a fairway hazard , or obstacle in within a fairway may not present you with good lie , the fairway is the intended access point towards the hole , it may not be the shortest ie dogleg holes etc but it’s a cut defined grass shape / portion The rules as they are , have developed over centuries, that has served the game well.

On balance we get good and bad through the game hence the term ‘ rub of the green ‘