Right wrist cock

[~QQ~]

Tommy’s not holding onto anything angle wise. The golf swing is too fast, and the forces on that club at that speed make it weigh a whole lot more than the 310-340g it may weigh. Don’t try and force that right wrist. Set it at the top, yes. By set, I mean the whole holding a tray thing. Even then, that can be overdone. The club has weight, it’ll set your wrist for you just on its own. Let it do it.

That being said, the club will also unhinge all on its own. When you’re throwing a ball, are you actively flicking your wrist as you throw it? Or are you just rotating towards the target and the momentum of everything just does it for you?

So I can obtain better lag with my irons, but they're heavy. My driver weighs almost nothing (at least it feels that way).

Are you saying swing speed generates more "pro like" lag?

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Not trying to dodge the question btw...Lag is a myth, or byproduct of swinging in the correct sequence...trying to feel it, or not feel it, will send golfers down a rabbit hole of trial and error for a look. And, as has been mentioned, everyone has different feels, and most players have different feels on different days

If you turn correctly going back, and use the ground properly back and through with passive hands and arms, you'll actually end up "throwing" your lag away before the ball. If you don't, you'll never get the ball in the air and end up tilting back to do so (naturally). Most players throw from the top, and don't know how to get to a point where they have to throw it at the bottom, so speed and accuracy elude them.

If you feel pull down like your Tommy pic you'll likely create a steep shaft (shallow is ideal because it allows you to turn through and not manipulate the club face). There is one correct shallowing motion that works every time, no matter the backswing, and I've seen a few coaches explain it brilliantly...a few, but not many.

 

[MWard]

So I can obtain better lag with my irons, but they're heavy. My driver weighs almost nothing (at least it feels that way).

Are you saying swing speed generates more "pro like" lag?

Not necessarily. The ladies swing slower than the men, and they can lag it. Lag is like fire. Too little, you're gonna freeze. Too much, you burn yourself.

You make a fire by following the correct sequence, and it happens automatically. I know for me, all I think about is take the club back to the top. It'll set on its own. Once I get to the top, my only thought is unwind everything at the same time. There's zero effort to try and restrict the upper body from turning as the lower body turns back towards the target, there's no manipulation, there's nothing at all other than "unwind through the ball"

Lag takes care of itself. If you keep turning, the club is going to unhinge on its own.

 

[Cmontgomery]

I am by no means a lower handicap, but I think modern teachers avoid lag. Lag is a byproduct of proper sequencing. With a good backswing position, proper use of your lower body into transition, and a relatively neutral downswing plane, lag will just happen. if you try to hold lag and time it, you could see all kinds of nasty stuff.

I’m certainly no low capper but this has been the key to me getting proper shaft lean and lag. I have a tendency of rotating and getting stuck and therefore flip in an effort to square up.

When I get into proper impact position I’m initiating my downswing and feeling as if my lower body is quiet

all this being said, my problem may in no way be yours.

These images are about 4 weeks apart

 

[F.N.G]

I do not think about my hands or arms at all in my swing in the down swing. I bring it up to the top, hands and arms and wrist basically feel like they go limp at the top as I focus on just turning my hips though till they are pointing left of the target. This for me automatically shallows out the club and gets it to the inside as well holds tons of lag to make a snap right past the ball. I was a big time caster as well, tried all kinds of things to stop it and this was the feel that did it and made playing so much more effortless. Sure there is some other things involved with feels vs reals, and that is my feels since my grip will naturally tight up and back of my left hand will turn to target because my brain know what face of the club i want to hit the ball. Stuff like that, but the feel is as described.

I found people trying to hold lag or that cast the club is because they want to " hit" the ball with their hands and arms with squared up powerful feeling shoulders. Like if you were going to slap someone with your hands together like you were praying your brain would say the hardest slap would come from a straight left arm being pushed by the right when you shoulders were square. Now just slap the same person with just your right hand and you will want to open up and have the hand more trail behind the body because that feels more powerful. Same goes with a good old pimp slap, shoulder goes well past face before the knuckles hit the face. The problem is our brain gets wonky when trying to use both hands for a job it wants to do with one. Golf is a side on sport, pretty much everything we do naturally side on is one handed. I think that is where casting comes from is the brain wanting square shoulders to ball ( your focal point to hit) to have power so the club needs to be in line by then, so you unhinge everything to make that happen. Try a dead arm swing where you think nothing of our hand arms or wrist from the top of your swing though. Sure you will slap they ground a few times trying it, but it will teach you at the very least where the ground is compared to your shoulders and that lag you want will happen. Then you just need to teach your brain to put the put the club on the ball and whala no more casting and will have lag since dead arms cant throw or push.

 

[~QQ~]

Not necessarily. The ladies swing slower than the men, and they can lag it. Lag is like fire. Too little, you're gonna freeze. Too much, you burn yourself.

You make a fire by following the correct sequence, and it happens automatically. I know for me, all I think about is take the club back to the top. It'll set on its own. Once I get to the top, my only thought is unwind everything at the same time. There's zero effort to try and restrict the upper body from turning as the lower body turns back towards the target, there's no manipulation, there's nothing at all other than "unwind through the ball"

Lag takes care of itself. If you keep turning, the club is going to unhinge on its own.

At what level though? Tommy's level? Have you video'd your lag? Just not sure what kind of lag I should expect to build as an amateur. Where do I become ok with what I have?

 

[~QQ~]

I do not think about my hands or arms at all in my swing in the down swing. I bring it up to the top, hands and arms and wrist basically feel like they go limp at the top as I focus on just turning my hips though till they are pointing left of the target. This for me automatically shallows out the club and gets it to the inside as well holds tons of lag to make a snap right past the ball. I was a big time caster as well, tried all kinds of things to stop it and this was the feel that did it and made playing so much more effortless. Sure there is some other things involved with feels vs reals, and that is my feels since my grip will naturally tight up and back of my left hand will turn to target because my brain know what face of the club i want to hit the ball. Stuff like that, but the feel is as described.

I found people trying to hold lag or that cast the club is because they want to " hit" the ball with their hands and arms with squared up powerful feeling shoulders. Like if you were going to slap someone with your hands together like you were praying your brain would say the hardest slap would come from a straight left arm being pushed by the right when you shoulders were square. Now just slap the same person with just your right hand and you will want to open up and have the hand more trail behind the body because that feels more powerful. Same goes with a good old pimp slap, shoulder goes well past face before the knuckles hit the face. The problem is our brain gets wonky when trying to use both hands for a job it wants to do with one. Golf is a side on sport, pretty much everything we do naturally side on is one handed. I think that is where casting comes from is the brain wanting square shoulders to ball ( your focal point to hit) to have power so the club needs to be in line by then, so you unhinge everything to make that happen. Try a dead arm swing where you think nothing of our hand arms or wrist from the top of your swing though. Sure you will slap they ground a few times trying it, but it will teach you at the very least where the ground is compared to your shoulders and that lag you want will happen. Then you just need to teach your brain to put the put the club on the ball and whala no more casting and will have lag since dead arms cant throw or push.

That's actually how I play, not what I do on the range. My only thought when I play is loose yet I have a good left on the club. Then I try to crack the whip (leave hands behind) and keep my head right on the ball. Everything in my video of these swings look good (I use a car cam in my cart). Yet there's the early release. It's as if my right wrist won't flex that much unless I make it.

 

[MWard]

At what level though? Tommy's level? Have you video'd your lag? Just not sure what kind of lag I should expect to build as an amateur. Where do I become ok with what I have?

I have videoed it. I can crank it when I need to, but I also know that it doesn’t always do great if you don’t know what to do with it.

 

[McLovin]

I’m certainly no low capper but this has been the key to me getting proper shaft lean and lag. I have a tendency of rotating and getting stuck and therefore flip in an effort to square up.

When I get into proper impact position I’m initiating my downswing and feeling as if my lower body is quiet

all this being said, my problem may in no way be yours.

These images are about 4 weeks apart

nice work! i would think your lower body could be the culprit, not dumping your wrist angles too early. but i’m no teacher, so if you’re working with someone and you’re seeing good results, keep it up!

 

[Cmontgomery]

nice work! i would think your lower body could be the culprit, not dumping your wrist angles too early. but i’m no teacher, so if you’re working with someone and you’re seeing good results, keep it up!

Thanks!

Certainly still a work in progress. For me it’s been a combination of making sure I create the space at the top of my swing so I have the room to drop my hands. I have a tendency to keep the right elbow tucked and have nowhere to go other than into my rib cage which seems to be my trigger release early. I also struggle when I try to muscle through a shot which makes my right arm takeover and ruin my angles. Keys right now are. Making sure I have the space and to create my speed with mechanics and angles versus muscle right now. Gotta get into position consistently and then build some speed.

 

[razaar]

Depends what you call "lag". I refer to lag as wrist break with the thumbs up. Because the downswing takes 2/5th of a second and I want the wrist break to be a side on release through impact and through to the finish, I supinate the left forearm with assistance from the left bicep early in the downswing. My hands lead the clubhead through impact with the left palm up and the right elbow Infront of my belly button. The key is keeping the right elbow ahead of the hands for as long as possible in the downswing. This release relies on the pivot to power the swing. At the finish my right shoulder is pointing at the target and my back is facing the ball/target line.
A decade ago, my release was a thumbs up to thumbs up release (flip) because of a body stall caused by a faulty pivot action.

 

[~QQ~]

Depends what you call "lag". I refer to lag as wrist break with the thumbs up. Because the downswing takes 2/5th of a second and I want the wrist break to be a side on release through impact and through to the finish, I supinate the left forearm with assistance from the left bicep early in the downswing. My hands lead the clubhead through impact with the left palm up and the right elbow Infront of my belly button. The key is keeping the right elbow ahead of the hands for as long as possible in the downswing. This release relies on the pivot to power the swing. At the finish my right shoulder is pointing at the target and my back is facing the ball/target line.
A decade ago, my release was a thumbs up to thumbs up release (flip) because of a body stall caused by a faulty pivot action.

That's interesting and makes sense. I'll have to look into this part of my swing. That's me, always analyzing and changing while on my quest for a better swing.

 

[MWard]

No flip, no active hands. Turn back, turn through.

 

[Shag Baby]

So I am working on keeping that right wrist cocked as long as I can through the downswing until I'm at the ball. Just curious if that's a feeling a lot of you lower handicappers try to attain? Seems to work really well for me on the range, but I need to "make it happen". It just doesn't come naturally otherwise I'd cast.

God no. Most good players try to do almost the opposite - getting the arms and club released quick early to increase clubhead speed down at the ball and avoids getting stuck. Trying to manipulate your hands like that slows down your club speed a lot and makes getting the clubface square in time very difficult.

It's not something you want to try to do - that lag you're after is a result of swinging the club correctly. If your task is to put your hands into that position your swing will suffer.

 

[dacatalyst41]

God no. Most good players try to do almost the opposite - getting the arms and club released quick early to increase clubhead speed down at the ball and avoids getting stuck. Trying to manipulate your hands like that slows down your club speed a lot and makes getting the clubface square in time very difficult.

It's not something you want to try to do - that lag you're after is a result of swinging the club correctly. If your task is to put your hands into that position your swing will suffer.

This is what I've found to be true and it's the fastest way for me to find a case of the shanks. I tend to focus on path and keeping my elbow tucked, but the feel is different for everyone. I do know holding off the wrist intentionally can create ALL SORTS of timing issues.

 

[~QQ~]

Depends what you call "lag". I refer to lag as wrist break with the thumbs up. Because the downswing takes 2/5th of a second and I want the wrist break to be a side on release through impact and through to the finish, I supinate the left forearm with assistance from the left bicep early in the downswing. My hands lead the clubhead through impact with the left palm up and the right elbow Infront of my belly button. The key is keeping the right elbow ahead of the hands for as long as possible in the downswing. This release relies on the pivot to power the swing. At the finish my right shoulder is pointing at the target and my back is facing the ball/target line.
A decade ago, my release was a thumbs up to thumbs up release (flip) because of a body stall caused by a faulty pivot action.

Just want to give some props here. I didn't consider my right elbow position on the downswing. Went out and did some drills and then the range. Getting that right elbow "unstuck" put me in the position I want to be in. I ran some slomo video on my swing and I have the "lag" I'm looking for. Thank you.

Now for my new problem. How to get my hands to turn over faster. Definitely delivering the club face open at the ball now. Video shows my hands are in the right position (from shoulder to hands to clubhead) compared to pros at impact but my hands aren't turned over enough. May be that tray, stop sign, ground thing with the right hand. Hard to focus on that while thinking about my right elbow. Might take some time and repetition.

Onward and upward!

 

[Rusty Dave]

Just want to give some props here. I didn't consider my right elbow position on the downswing. Went out and did some drills and then the range. Getting that right elbow "unstuck" put me in the position I want to be in. I ran some slomo video on my swing and I have the "lag" I'm looking for. Thank you.

Now for my new problem. How to get my hands to turn over faster. Definitely delivering the club face open at the ball now. Video shows my hands are in the right position (from shoulder to hands to clubhead) compared to pros at impact but my hands aren't turned over enough. May be that tray, stop sign, ground thing with the right hand. Hard to focus on that while thinking about my right elbow. Might take some time and repetition.

Onward and upward!

Hands should turn over themselves if they’re tension free and you have good rotation. My feeling is a slight bowed left wrist coming into impact but I’m not trying to actively turn my hands over. If you do you’re opening yourself up to steepness, two way misses and miserable golf.

 

[tequila4kapp]

I hear that. If I'm not thinking about it, I'm casting. What's another way to create naturally?

As a fellow caster...the lag still happens naturally but we surrender it too soon.

Find a feel that works for you to not cast then remember it forever. For me I have better luck not casting when I have a held off feeling through impact.

Start at the 1:13 mark of this video to more or less describe the move I mean when I say "hold off" feeling

 

[Mack Daddy]

So I am working on keeping that right wrist cocked as long as I can through the downswing until I'm at the ball. Just curious if that's a feeling a lot of you lower handicappers try to attain? Seems to work really well for me on the range, but I need to "make it happen". It just doesn't come naturally otherwise I'd cast.

Don’t worry about trying to lag. Try to think more and concentrate on extending your arms out or snapping out a few feet past the ball right after impact. I recommend you try an impact snap training device.

 

[razaar]

Just want to give some props here. I didn't consider my right elbow position on the downswing. Went out and did some drills and then the range. Getting that right elbow "unstuck" put me in the position I want to be in. I ran some slomo video on my swing and I have the "lag" I'm looking for. Thank you.

Now for my new problem. How to get my hands to turn over faster. Definitely delivering the club face open at the ball now. Video shows my hands are in the right position (from shoulder to hands to clubhead) compared to pros at impact but my hands aren't turned over enough. May be that tray, stop sign, ground thing with the right hand. Hard to focus on that while thinking about my right elbow. Might take some time and repetition.

Onward and upward!

The swing elements I gave to you need to be married to a couple of things. The first is a clockwise rotation of the right forearm with the right elbow down and forward during the upswing of the club to the top of the backswing. The second is a pivot action where the pelvis fires twice during the downswing - in transition and again just before impact. Keeping the swing centred is the golden rule.
If you can manage to acquire these skills you will understand the elite golf swing.
This is not something one picks up immediately or can be shown how to do it. We have to teach ourselves by dedicated trail and error over considerable period of time.

 

[pattyboy21]

I think it is a much better swing thought to imagine releasing your club to a point somewhere in front of your ball. That makes everything work and flow naturally, and of course, if you do it correctly you will still have plenty of wrist cock late in the swing.

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

So I am working on keeping that right wrist cocked as long as I can through the downswing until I'm at the ball. Just curious if that's a feeling a lot of you lower handicappers try to attain? Seems to work really well for me on the range, but I need to "make it happen". It just doesn't come naturally otherwise I'd cast.

I’m not sure I’m your low handicap speaker but I’ve worked on this in the last three months. For a while I fought to hold that position through impact but it lead to other problem, like a lack of release. Now I focus on EITHER feeling the right palm down at impact OR the back of left hand down (like I’m holding something in an open hand) at impact. They do the same thing for me but different feels work on different days.

I am by no means a lower handicap, but I think modern teachers avoid lag. Lag is a byproduct of proper sequencing. With a good backswing position, proper use of your lower body into transition, and a relatively neutral downswing plane, lag will just happen. if you try to hold lag and time it, you could see all kinds of nasty stuff.

Wow! 3 very impelling posts right off the bat. I figured I'd better jump to the end or I'd be quoting the whole thread! QQ cites something many have fought with. How to get the range game to the course? All I can offer is that you have to have faith! You know doggone well how you hit the ball when you do thus and so. You just need to be willing to do thus and so on the course. And it's not easy! Here's some suggestions that might make it easier. When on the range and practicing, be super target picky! Pick a definite target and hit for it. One way I do this is play an imaginary round while at the range.

I'm at my favorite course. 1st hole is a 390 yd par 4 with a generous fairway. I hit a nice drive and have 150 in. I pull a club and see the pin is cut left. I aim at the center of the green, but I shove it right! Plenty of green to work with, so I hit a chip. Do that same for as long as the round lasts or your bucket of balls holds out. Keeps you from swatting the same club over and over as well.

Molten, you CANNOT hold that flexed position through impact unless you want to break a wrist, or miss the ball entirely while you're swinging very slowly! Otherwise it is not possible! The two "feelings" you talked about I have heard referred to many times. Those are good things to practice.

And McLovin, I do NOT believe that lag naturally happens. It might for some, but not for most in my experience. I knew this girl who wanted to golf with her boyfriend, but did not want to ask him for advice. She knew I played and asked me for help. This girl had danced ballet for most of her life, and she was physically gifted. She picked up stuff very quickly. I coached her on grip, stance, alignment, posture, ball position, and swing movements and she was a stellar student. That is, until it came to the transition into the downswing!

She wanted to cast so bad I can't emphasize it enough! I tried to get her out of that, but I don't know if she ever figured it out. I think that some people need to be TAUGHT a proper release!

 

[WILDTHING]

Just want to give some props here. I didn't consider my right elbow position on the downswing. Went out and did some drills and then the range. Getting that right elbow "unstuck" put me in the position I want to be in. I ran some slomo video on my swing and I have the "lag" I'm looking for. Thank you.

Now for my new problem. How to get my hands to turn over faster. Definitely delivering the club face open at the ball now. Video shows my hands are in the right position (from shoulder to hands to clubhead) compared to pros at impact but my hands aren't turned over enough. May be that tray, stop sign, ground thing with the right hand. Hard to focus on that while thinking about my right elbow. Might take some time and repetition.

Onward and upward!

There are 3 options open to you to square the clubface.

1. Active supination of your lead forearm.
2. Passive torque caused by shallowing the club on a plane that is below the plane of your lead arm (in the early-mid downswing). Please see video at the end of my post.
3. A mixture of 1 and 2

If you have a neutral grip your probably thinking how can I supinate my left forearm while also supinating my right forearm and still have the palms (and clubface) facing each other approaching impact? The answer is circumduction of the right wrist which is a rotary movement of the wrist joint due to flexion and ulnar deviation happening in sequence but almost together.

Tommy Fleetwood's right wrist is in the act of 'circumduction' , not holding the lag . Please note that the dynamic weight of the club is becoming very large (in fact its about 100 lbs by impact) so holding lag is very difficult anyhow.

Here are close-up images of Rory's forearms and wrists where the blue line is his radial bone while the red line points to something called the 'antecubital fossa' (ie. the elbow pit) . Basically when the blue line is aligned with the red line the forearm is in neutral but the images below show that the right forearm is frankly supinated all the way to impact (although it is getting slightly less supinated from image 2 - 3 just before impact).

You can see that his left forearm is supinating from image 1-3 while his right forearm is also in supination , that his right wrist is ulnar deviating (uncocking) while also undergoing flexion in images 2 and 3, which together means his right wrist is in the act of circumduction. This is how Rory can still lead with a pitch elbow (with an externally rotated right humerus) before his hands in the early -mid downswing ( which will require his forearm to be supinated) but still be able to allow his right hand to facilitate the squaring of the clubface by impact.


Image 1


Image 2

Image 3



Circumduction of the wrist


External Rotation Of Right Humerus




Supination and Pronation of Forearm



Passive Torque Concept Dr Sasho MacKenzie (see up to 03:34)




Here is the passive torque effect but you might not understand it if you are not acquainted with 'Torques/Angular Momentum/Moment Of Inertia' .

You might think that this is a 'toppling over' OTT rotation and you'd be right except that the torque is small and the 'toppling over' effect won't happen because the COM of the club is too far away from the longitudinal axis of the lead arm (ie. its 'Moment of Inertia' is large). It will still give the club a bit of angular momentum as shown and that momentum will need to remain conserved as the COM gets closer to the longitudinal axis of the lead arm (as the lead wrist uncocks). To conserve angular momentum , the angular velocity of the club around the longitudinal axis of the lead arm will need to increase (as the MOI decreases) which should assist in squaring the clubface without excessive lead forearm muscular supination.

The amount of torque required to square the clubface may depend on the angle formed between the lead arm and clubshaft . For example , Sergio Garcia will probably require a larger club squaring torque than Phil Mickelson.



Apologies for all the edits I've been doing to this post - its very complicated to get the words/descriptions correct.

 

[doc53]

I prefer to keep swing thoughts less specific than something like how and when my wrists are positioned at any point in my swing.

Getting swing ready for new season Feb 2021.
View attachment 8999142

I purposely chose this location to view my swing after a long winter. I wanted the house and trees in background for reference. Balance and general body position are good indicators to me of my swing proficiency. The other important consideration I made was to swing close to the opening of my garage so the sound of my swing would be captured by my phone in the garage.

If you listen carefully you can hear as I do the release of energy after the impact point. This is what I think relates to your original post. I'm not concerned with a wrist lag at all. I do want an "energy lag" you might say because I want to know the club is accelerating at a particular time during my swing; not too soon, not too late.

 

[Desmond]

I can't pay attention to swing threads or YouTube instruction vids because it screws up my progress.

But here is Jack on your subject (and I have no opinion, I do what my instructor says and it seems to work) ....

“Let me show you the two common faults that are made on the downswing,” Nicklaus says. “Not moving to the left side and not releasing from the top of the swing,”

The first issue, Nicklaus says, are golfers who remain too rigid in their downswing, not propelling the clubhead forward toward the target.

“First of all, let’s take the fella who stands up to the ball and doesn’t move to his left side, but releases from the top of the swing,” Nicklaus says. “What happens? It’s what’s called casting.”

“Casting,” as Nicklaus calls it, refers to the swing phenomenon that occurs when golfers release their swing without moving forward, giving off the impression of casting a fishing rod. Golfers who do this usually see issues with both ballstriking and overally swing power.

The other common issue Nicklaus sees is in the downswing? Those who don’t release from the top of the swing, an issue that can be a main culprit behind your dreaded slice.

“Now let’s take the second fella, and that fella is a fella who does not release the club from the top of the swing and he holds onto it,” Nicklaus says. “What he does, he takes a nice backswing, he holds onto the club which throws him outside, and throws him out over across the ball, resulting in either a slice or a pull hook.”

Instead, Nicklaus says, focus on completing both actions — sliding to the left and releasing the club off the top of your shoulder — while letting the clubhead to the rest of the work for you. The result should be a downswing that puts your club in a consistent impact position, whether you look like Matt Wolff or Rory McIlroy through your swing.

“Now, let’s try to show you what should happen,” he says. “First of all, you want to complete the backswing. Swing the club slightly to the inside, at the top of the swing move to the left side and release the club. I frankly prefer that one.”