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Rules calls from outside agencies - how should it be handled?

the_paulo

the_paulo

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Thought this should be a seperate thread.

Since there have been a couple of high profile DQs recently, due to members of the public calling in to spot an infraction, I got to thinking.

The letter of the law is there. We aren't going to change every rule a player might get DQ'd for, but should the public be vigilantes in this case?
I know a few 'armchair heros' myself, who would get a kick out of reporting this sort of thing.

Surely watching the game for entertainment is enough? Why do we feel the need to get involved further, and aren't we then playing with the livelihoods of these guys now?

So how should it be handled? Do we allow it to continue or will that just see it escalate?

How about this. There's a 'cut off point' at the end of the round. Anything that isn't reported within an hour/2 hours of a player finishing his round gets discounted. Is it possible to tweak this for serious foul play, or intentional cheating? Or does that go against the clear cut nature of the rules of golf?
 
I'm more worried about what the DQ does to someone like a Paddy Harrington, who's been working so hard to get back to that major championship form. Clearly he was playing well, in a very tough field, and now he can't play anymore.

The problem will always be the argument from the one side, who feels that breaking the rules is breaking the rules, whether you're televised or not, then there is the other side of the fence who says they agree but people shouldn't have the right to call in the violation.

I hate to say it, but this is one of those topics that subjectivity will be a very small part of it, posts will be more about emotion, and they never end up going well.
 
There should be none. Players and tour officials on the course and maybe have a group in booth/room watching players from live video feed and if they see anything call a rules offical then. If nothing has been brought up by time a player finishes his round and goes to sign scorecard nothing can be reversed or added to score to DQ a player.
 
No other sport allows calls from viewers for rules violations. Have you ever heard NASCAR disqualifying Darell Waltrip for turning right instead of left because a viewer called in to report it?

There are numerous officials on the course, including rules experts to make calls, and, as Harrington stated, these guys call infractions on themselves. The PGA needs to adopt the same standards as every other professional sport and not accept interference from armchair rules experts.
 
The callers should be hung up on
 
I don't agree with accepting these calls on any level and the "tours" should address this.
Not all playing groups have cameras following them so this allows more latitude (fewer eyes) for some players than others.
A player signs a score card that they truely believe to be correct and they are DQ'd for signing an incorrect card after the violation is reported. They should at least be offered the opportunity to review the video and correct their score card. Only seems fair that they get a do over, the officials got one.
Just my .05 cents worth.
 
Chunkylover77 said:
The callers should be hung up on
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I'd go a step further and have them strapped into a chair naked with an electric wire suspended at height between their groin and navel and then bring out Natalie Gulbis in one her tiny skirts to parade about in front of him.
 
The issue isn't about the infractions themselves at all. The is no parity in a system that allows this type of rule enforcement.

Let's look at the Paddy incident. They are saying that the ball was about 1.5 dimples shy of where it should have been. That's a few millimeters, which would be tough to spot by the naked eye. Are we to believe that out of the 2000 or so marked balls in ONE DAY of that tournament, Paddy's was the only one that ended up a few millimeters from the exact spot it was originally sitting? How is that setting up the field to play under the same rules? We don't even always get a clear view of exactly where the ball was marked for many of the people that are on TV. If you are slow motion video analyzing ball placement for one person, it just isn't fair not to do it for everybody else.

Also, what's the statute of limitations on this? Could we go back a tournemant or a year or ten years to look at the spot everybody (that was on TV) marked their ball and DQ them if they weren't spot on with their placement?
 
Hawk said:
The issue isn't about the infractions themselves at all. The is no parity in a system that allows this type of rule enforcement.

Let's look at the Paddy incident. They are saying that the ball was about 1.5 dimples shy of where it should have been. That's a few millimeters, which would be tough to spot by the naked eye. Are we to believe that out of the 2000 or so marked balls in ONE DAY of that tournament, Paddy's was the only one that ended up a few millimeters from the exact spot it was originally sitting? How is that setting up the field to play under the same rules? We don't even always get a clear view of exactly where the ball was marked for many of the people that are on TV. If you are slow motion video analyzing ball placement for one person, it just isn't fair not to do it for everybody else.

Also, what's the statute of limitations on this? Could we go back a tournemant or a year or ten years to look at the spot everybody (that was on TV) marked their ball and DQ them if they weren't spot on with their placement?
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My thoughts exactly. Well said Hawk
 
im googling the phone # to the nfl before next season starts
put all your money on the chargers for next years super bowl!
 
bogey_russ said:
im googling the phone # to the nfl before next season starts
put all your money on the chargers for next years super bowl!
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I'm doing the same for the NBA right now. You're going down Kobe!!!!
 
Hawk said:
The issue isn't about the infractions themselves at all. The is no parity in a system that allows this type of rule enforcement.

Let's look at the Paddy incident. They are saying that the ball was about 1.5 dimples shy of where it should have been. That's a few millimeters, which would be tough to spot by the naked eye. Are we to believe that out of the 2000 or so marked balls in ONE DAY of that tournament, Paddy's was the only one that ended up a few millimeters from the exact spot it was originally sitting? How is that setting up the field to play under the same rules? We don't even always get a clear view of exactly where the ball was marked for many of the people that are on TV. If you are slow motion video analyzing ball placement for one person, it just isn't fair not to do it for everybody else.

Also, what's the statute of limitations on this? Could we go back a tournemant or a year or ten years to look at the spot everybody (that was on TV) marked their ball and DQ them if they weren't spot on with their placement?
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There are a few questions there...

1) Whether it moved 1.5 feet or 1.5 millimeters is moot... That is the rule. He could have put it back in it's proper spot without penalty

2) Statute of limitations is when The Tour deems official results. I someone called in Monday morning, nothing wouls be done, and the results stand.

Personally, I don't like the idea of people calling in, but a rules infraction is a rules infraction, and The Tour, Players, and Fans will have to live with that. Can you imagine what it would do to the credibility of The Tour is they let a rules infraction go without penalty ?

I'd simply modify the situation so that a player is assessed the penalty that would have applied had it been called BEFORE he signed his scorecard.

No more of this DQ for signing an incorrect scorecard after the fact.
 
Shankopotamus said:
There are a few questions there...

1) Whether it moved 1.5 feet or 1.5 millimeters is moot... That is the rule. He could have put it back in it's proper spot without penalty

2) Statute of limitations is when The Tour deems official results. I someone called in Monday morning, nothing wouls be done, and the results stand.
Personally, I don't like the idea of people calling in, but a rules infraction is a rules infraction, and The Tour, Players, and Fans will have to live with that. Can you imagine what it would do to the credibility of The Tour is they let a rules infraction go without penalty ?

I'd simply modify the situation so that a player is assessed the penalty that would have applied had it been called BEFORE he signed his scorecard.

No more of this DQ for signing an incorrect scorecard after the fact.
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I hesitated to even put the 'millimeters' reference in that post because I had a feeling I was going to get that response. My point was not the distance, but the fact that we are slow motion analyzing one player out of 100+, when we all know that there is a great chance not every ball was placed in the exact spot it started.

As for the #2, I appreciate that information. I actually didn't know that and am glad that you clarified it for me :)
 
Shankopotamus said:
There are a few questions there...

1) Whether it moved 1.5 feet or 1.5 millimeters is moot... That is the rule. He could have put it back in it's proper spot without penalty
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What about .5 millimeters. At some point a player may not be able to see or judge something that can be seen in slow motion. As Paddy stated in his interview, he felt the ball was back at it's original position.
 
I also want to make it clear that I'm not disputing that the ball moved from it's spot. I think it kind of silly, but that is for a completely different thread. The issue at hand in this thread is the calling of penalties from an outside agency.
 
Chesnutt said:
What about .5 millimeters. At some point a player may not be able to see or judge something that can be seen in slow motion. As Paddy stated in his interview, he felt the ball was back at it's original position.
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If the situation was that you could not see it in real-time, but only in super-slow-motion, it think the rules official should have had the "balls" to say that it would be unreasonable for the player to be able to determine that the ball moved. NO PENALTY.
 
Looking at the most recent situations (Camilo, Paddy, and GMac) the one that honestly upsets me the most is GMac. The other two did in fact violate the rules of golf. In Paddy’s case I believe he honestly made every effort to follow the spirit of the rules and was penalized for something that in many ways was beyond human perception.

GMac did NOT violate the rules of golf yet still had some outside entity try to call him on it. It highlights that all of this outside influence is many times off base and that we only really hear about all the times its right- not all the times someone is falsely accused of one thing or another.

The other things we have seen this past week is that self officiating works. The Swedish tour player who was suspended last year shows that when players intentionally cheat, the playing partners and systems in place take care of them. What we are seeing recently (and particularly with Paddy) is that people doing their best to follow the rules are being penalized in situations where no ordinary human in their position could have done anything different.

I have yet to see the starch defenders of the call-in and “player should know” come to the defense of the caller in the Paddy situation. 1 ½ dimples? Really? I personally ask each person... could YOU have seen the difference that Paddy was supposed to have been able to see?
 
Hawk said:
I also want to make it clear that I'm not disputing that the ball moved from it's spot. I think it kind of silly, but that is for a completely different thread. The issue at hand in this thread is the calling of penalties from an outside agency.
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Players live with "outside agencies" all the time. There is nothing in the rules that says an outside agency can't bring up a rules infraction. In fact, The R&A & USGA have actually encouraged and endorsed the practice.

I think it's a fact of life they (and us) will have to deal with. Without TV and Fans, they'd be playing a 10 dollar nassau like the rest of us, and giving the occasional 3 footer.
 
Since all plays are not covered by camera, stop the use of video replay and there would be no point to the SOBs calling in.
This isn't a football game where there are numerous cameras covering basically the only play.
 
Shankopotamus said:
Players live with "outside agencies" all the time. There is nothing in the rules that says an outside agency can't bring up a rules infraction. In fact, The R&A & USGA have actually encouraged and endorsed the practice.

I think it's a fact of life they (and us) will have to deal with. Without TV and Fans, they'd be playing a 10 dollar nassau like the rest of us, and giving the occasional 3 footer.
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I see your point but I disagree with you here. As tv viewers and fans of golf we get to watch the best of the best play the game we love at its highest level, that is where our interaction with the events ends. Does anybody sit at home watching the nfl and then call in pass interference, then two plays later the ref gets that info and penalizes that team? The fact that this happens is crazy IMO and the PGA needs to put a stop to it. After the call in about Camillo, it got so much press that I am sure others started to watch the broadcast more closely so that they could call in and be a part of the action too. Let the rules officials do their jobs and lets all sit at home and enjoy the golf.
On a separate note, in a case like Camillo's if someone does happen to call in after they have signed their card, and the player doesn't know they might have commited a rules infraction, should they not be able to give them the penalty strokes without disqualifying them? Add the strokes let them resign the card and let play go on.
 
Chesnutt said:
A player signs a score card that they truely believe to be correct and they are DQ'd for signing an incorrect card after the violation is reported. They should at least be offered the opportunity to review the video and correct their score card. Only seems fair that they get a do over, the officials got one.
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This makes a lot of sense to me. I am in the camp that any player on Tour should know all the rules and expecially know when one is broken. If they break a rule, there is a penalty involved, even if it means a DQ. However, if they are not aware that they broke a rule, then they should get to adjust that score, even in the result is in. If the officials get to review every dimple that turns, the player should be able to make the penalty adjustment even after the fact.

I can see the flipside where you will have players who will try and get away with violations, knowing they may or may not get caught, but can't get DQed. There has to be a happy medium somewhere with all this.
 
The only thing that bothers me about all of this is the low life bums who sit at home and call in about this stuff. You trying to be a hero there bum who probably lives in your mom's basement and stealing your cable from the neighbor? Get a life. I don't know what if anything can or will be done to stop it, they should tell the player the name and address of the person who called the foul in, imagine Pat Perez getting DQ'd after he seemingly won an event or a high finish, he'd go kill that guy who called in on him. That would take care of that issue right quick.
 
I do not agree with outside influences influencing someone round of golf. A DQ for something that was "caught" after the scorecard has been signed is completely outrageous. I'd be up for the penalty being assessed to the player, but let him continue. In Paddy's situation here, no one knew until after. How is it fair to the player? How is this fair to the average viewer? It's just stupid IMO.
 
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