Scratch Golf Controversy

[KickaPoo]

Just wondering if anyone has been following the Scratch Golf controversy? Theres a thread on this on another forum where the writer of this article and Ari from Scratch have both responded. Pretty interesting so far:
(btw, even though i currently have 2 Scratch wedges in my bag, i am not one of those Scratch fanboys you read about on that other site, lol)


Part 1: http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/how-much-do-you-think-you-know-about-japanese-golf-club-manufacturing-part-1/

Part 2:http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/1018-controversy-update-scratch-responds/#more-9658

It even states that Muira has never forged ANYTHING.

 

[JB]

This has been going on for quite a while. Many around the net agree with one side or the other. I have no stake, because frankly I dont care either way. I have said what I feel about the marketing of Scratch and it is 100% my opinion (as well as many others). I think they make fine equipment. The wedges that I tried a few months back were not better than the wedges I currently play for my game, but I am glad that so many love them.

They market their products a certain way that gets lots of fans and lots of people that do not care for it. Unfortunately, it is just the way it is.

I have to say though, with the way they are marketed, from the beginning it would not matter. As a writer/store, him "demanding" Ari answer his questions AFTER CALLING HIM OUT is quite absurd.

There is a proper way in doing things, and that is not it. In the end, it will not matter one bit though.

 

[KickaPoo]

yep. to be 100% honest, i bought the 1018 wedges because of how they were marketed (made from the softest metal used in golf: 1018) and because of all the hype on another forum. in my opinion they are no better than any other premium wedge on the market today.

 

[JB]

There are people that swear by them. I guess if it gives them the confidence on the course, then all the power to them.

 

[KickaPoo]

i also thought it was interesting how the writer says the Geotech irons are what Scratch uses and just stamps Scratch on them. I had always wondered about that, but they dont look the same to me. I had always wondered if Scratch just buys blank heads and stamps Scratch on them, but then I saw a post Ari made on another forum and said they own the molds for the heads. So who really knows??? Its freaking confusing, who are we supposed to believe? LOL

Scratch AR-1 head

Geotech head:

 

[JB]

I have heard that for a while now as well. In the end, people will never really know, but also in the end, does it really matter? I look at it like this.

If these wedges truly are amazing like so many say they are, then it should not matter what is in them, who makes them, or anything else. Im not sure people care in the mainstream world of golf equipment, but certain places online sure do quite a bit...hehe

 

[KickaPoo]

another interesting thing is (i love these controversies), Ari's comments so far have been pretty much "Im not stooping to your level and i refuse to discuss this on a forum", but the writer said that if Ari could prove him wrong, he would give Ari a huge banner on TSG for a full year and he will keep it (the article) on his homepage (goltoimpress) for a full year with a public apology from the writer... but Ari doesnt want to get into it. Seems like a good deal for some free advertising if Ari is telling the truth.

 

[JB]

I agree to that, but here is the way I see it. If you are going to accuse a company of flat out lying, I think you should have the proof, not say "answer my questions". Just my opinion of course.

But I also go back to the same thing as before. With the marketing that they had done, I am not sure it would have affected Scratch at all.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

I don't buy this story.Sounds to me that the writer has a beef with Ari and will do anything to hurt his reputation.

 

[lefty]

I like Scratch stuff and service, but they certainly do seem to be a bit of a lightning rod

they certainly have their fans, but there also seem to be plenty that seem to have an axe to grind with them

 

[KickaPoo]

I don't buy this story.Sounds to me that the writer has a beef with Ari and will do anything to hurt his reputation.

yeah, i thought about that too. but he does bring up some interesting points in his argument. however, Ari seems to be willing to confront the accusations now. so im still not sure who to believe, lol. it'll be interesting to see how this plays out

 

[TourSpecGolfer]

I agree to that, but here is the way I see it. If you are going to accuse a company of flat out lying, I think you should have the proof, not say "answer my questions". Just my opinion of course.

But I also go back to the same thing as before. With the marketing that they had done, I am not sure it would have affected Scratch at all.

Im Chris the person who started this by writing that blog post on GTI.

Ya know JB you are right, I should and could have handled this in a better way.

We are going to do the metal test but right now my proof is everyone I have asked and is close to me in Japan. People who are REAL experts the guys who do the work. It's unfair to them to start dropping names in my opinion.

I feel alone on these boards, even my own. If I spill the beans people get rubbed the wrong way. I mean this situation with scratch & Miura is just one of many misconceptions about the Japanese golf industry. This one has been boiling up for a while.

Even if the metal test comes out saying they use 1018 he can't deny the other issues. My TSG wedge was marketed on the fact that it was Ishihara forged 1018, If my customers really cared I would have egg on my face. But I care, I'm a critical guy, almost never satisfied.

I am the type of person to say I'm wrong if I am. This 1018 thing is not new info to me. Not gonna spill any names but 2 Japan OEMs now in the U.S know the 1018 & Ishihara thing is BS and have mentioned it to their store accounts.

What kind of proof can I provide you guys? You tell me and if it's fair I will do my best.

I will say one thing, Ari is really a nice person, I have told him I envy is positive attitude many times. Scratch makes good golf clubs also. his reason for us not offering the product is not true. I wish my brands had margins like his.

That said he has not purchased his own original molds like he says. All of the heads in his line up are open model and available from factory catalogs and it's been that way for almost a decade. Before there was TSG or Scratch those heads were available.

I know every open model head in Japan that's available.

The person who posted the geotech head posted the wrong one, this is the correct head:

http://www.tourspecgolf.com/Geotech-Head-Only-Prototype-Forged-670-HC-4-PW-1444-02

but the head that person posted is actually a variant of of the same one in question. (adjusted mold)

So the foundry produces these heads overweight aka pregnant and you have the option to reduce offset, topline, etc...

Scratch simply doesn't have the cash to produce open molds at will. It would make no sense for a niche market brand. There have been over a dozen brands to use these same heads, nano power, geotech, scratch, golden ratio, and the list goes on.

Nothing wrong with these heads, they perform well it's just they are dated and very affordable for the OEM allowing for big profit.

I will say it first here, on my next brand coming out in 2010 I am using some of the newer open model heads and the price will be affordable. No Shame but nothing hidden.

I expose this stuff and some people think im a D**k. Must be my delivery.

 

[JB]

Chris,
I think there is a lot of stuff that should be out in the open and a lot of stuff that just does not matter. Here is my two cents for what it is worth.

1. You sell a competitive product, so no matter if you are right or wrong, it will come across poorly. Being a store and media, makes that difficult.

2. Scratch seems to be the Mac of the golf internet world. People love them and hate them, but it is very polarizing.

3. Their marketing and delivery have made them an internet and forum darling. This is a great thing as people have "access" to the people behind the brand.

4. In the end, it really does not matter right? If they call it whatever and people love it for what it is, it makes no difference. People clearly love the wedge no matter what it is made of.

I guess my point is that you are calling someone out about a product before doing the metal test. Why did you not do the test prior and then make your statements about the metal used as well as the other issues?

When it comes down to it, my belief matters little. But I think it is not your delivery or your message. But the messenger itself that keeps getting the wrong signal. At THP all we ever ask for is transparency from the industry and the media. In the end, that is what makes it easier for consumers.

For a game that is built on ethics, tradition, and honesty, its a shame any of this comes to be ever. I have no horse in this race at all. Chris and I have spoken in the past and he has always been 100% honest, nice, and great to deal with.

 

[KickaPoo]

very close. i might pick up a set of those Geotech heads now! lol

 

[lefty]

I think you're just not being received well because you made the accusations before you'd done the work to be 100% certain that you were right (at least on the metallurgy issue)

I think the iron heads being re-purposed from existing designs is entirely belivable and probably likely (at least from the start, maybe things have changed), my personal tip off to make me think that was the LH irons they'd shown looked to my eye to be different than what they were offering the RH players

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Once again,Does it really matter what metal is being used?If a person loves whatever iron they chose,who cares what it's made of.What's important is they like the looks,feel and performance.

Yes, there are many open designs anybody who has money can start selling their own branded set of irons.A very good friend of mine has done this very thing.

 

[KickaPoo]

Once again,Does it really matter what metal is being used?If a person loves whatever iron they chose,who cares what it's made of.What's important is they like the looks,feel and performance.

well, yeah, kinda. thats ONE of the reasons i bought their wedges (because of the soft 1018 carbon steel). so, it mattered to me. it probably doesnt matter to everyone, but im sure it matters to some

 

[JB]

Once again,Does it really matter what metal is being used?If a person loves whatever iron they chose,who cares what it's made of.What's important is they like the looks,feel and performance.

Yes, there are many open designs anybody who has money can start selling their own branded set of irons.A very good friend of mine has done this very thing.

well, yeah, kinda. thats ONE of the reasons i bought their wedges (because of the soft 1018 carbon steel). so, it mattered to me. it probably doesnt matter to everyone, but im sure it matters to some

I agree with both sides here. But yes, if you are marketing a niche product because of one thing and it turns out to be false, then that is a problem. Not saying that is the case here, but it could be an issue.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

well, yeah, kinda. thats ONE of the reasons i bought their wedges (because of the soft 1018 carbon steel). so, it mattered to me. it probably doesnt matter to everyone, but im sure it matters to some

If you bought it just for that reason,fine. What should be important to you is you like the feel and performance of your wedge.I see your point,but I look at it differently.

Now, that you have heard this story from TSG,is it going to change how the wedge performs?

 

[KickaPoo]

If you bought it just for that reason,fine. What should be important to you is you like the feel and performance of your wedge.I see your point,but I look at it differently.

i see your point too, BUT, like i said, that was just ONE of the reasons i bought them (because they are supposedly made of a very soft metal). i could not hit these prior to buying them because nobody around me carries them (that i know of). so i went by what they said they were made of (and because of so many people saying they felt so soft). im not unhappy with them by any means, i just dont think they feel or perform any better than any other premium wedge

 

[TourSpecGolfer]

So it appears the topic was locked on WRX, it got quite heated as many people took it to a personal level against me.

Of course GXgolfer says that what Ari says will solve everything.

My bottom line here guy's is:

1. I know Ishihara-Shoten doesnt forge golf clubs
2. I know that 1018 will not be used in Japanese produced products from golf to auto's to electronics, etc.. and must be sourced from China
3. I know Mr. Ishihara died 2 years ago of stomach cancer & Ishihara-Shoten gained the name via trademark transfer.
4. I know that their irons are Open model

These 4 things are common Japanese golf industry knowledge

I'm honestly shocked at how they will not listen and let the facts play themselves out.

Ari, if your around please dispute this...

If anyone has any questions let me know.

 

[egolfer]

Replies:

1. I don't care.

2. 1018 is a US spec, of course Japan would not use it as a spec. And I don't care as long as they have a consistent feel.

3. I don't care.

4. I've read their previous website and they admit it to be an open model that they have tweaked and I play them for their customization and grinds.

Next topic please.

 

[JB]

So it appears the topic was locked on WRX, it got quite heated as many people took it to a personal level against me.

Of course GXgolfer says that what Ari says will solve everything.

My bottom line here guy's is:

1. I know Ishihara-Shoten doesnt forge golf clubs
2. I know that 1018 will not be used in Japanese produced products from golf to auto's to electronics, etc.. and must be sourced from China
3. I know Mr. Ishihara died 2 years ago of stomach cancer & Ishihara-Shoten gained the name via trademark transfer.
4. I know that their irons are Open model

These 4 things are common Japanese golf industry knowledge

I'm honestly shocked at how they will not listen and let the facts play themselves out.

Ari, if your around please dispute this...

If anyone has any questions let me know.

Things are different at this site and nobody is going to take to personal attacks from one side or another. You asked for questions and a few have asked them. Why did you not do the metal test before calling them out? Why has it still not been done?

If you read my original response to your statement, you will see that quite a few share the same thoughts that I do. Its not your message or delivery, its the messenger.

Replies:

1. I don't care.

2. 1018 is a US spec, of course Japan would not use it as a spec. And I don't care as long as they have a consistent feel.

3. I don't care.

4. I've read their previous website and they admit it to be an open model that they have tweaked and I play them for their customization and grinds.

Next topic please.

However as previously mentioned on this thread, some do care and bought the clubs for this very reason.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

So it appears the topic was locked on WRX, it got quite heated as many people took it to a personal level against me.

Of course GXgolfer says that what Ari says will solve everything.

My bottom line here guy's is:

1. I know Ishihara-Shoten doesnt forge golf clubs
2. I know that 1018 will not be used in Japanese produced products from golf to auto's to electronics, etc.. and must be sourced from China
3. I know Mr. Ishihara died 2 years ago of stomach cancer & Ishihara-Shoten gained the name via trademark transfer.
4. I know that their irons are Open model

These 4 things are common Japanese golf industry knowledge

I'm honestly shocked at how they will not listen and let the facts play themselves out.

Ari, if your around please dispute this...

If anyone has any questions let me know.

Why are you bothering to seek out this info?Why do you care how any Manufacture advertised their clubs?What's in it for you?

 

[JB]

Why are you bothering to seek out this info?Why do you care how any Manufacture advertised their clubs?What's in it for you?

I think that is what it becomes the messenger like I said and not the message. If this was a regular part of the media, one might say "well, I hate false advertising" or "who cares anyway". But because the messenger has something to gain by this because he sells his own product, it becomes, "what do you have to gain by this?"