We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Scratch Golf Controversy

SuperStroke
TourSpecGolfer said:
So it appears the topic was locked on WRX, it got quite heated as many people took it to a personal level against me.


Ari, if your around please dispute this...

If anyone has any questions let me know.
Click to expand...

I can understand why it got personal, you are a competing company "demanding" answers from your competitor and attempting to use golf forums as your "town hall" for debate, which IMO makes you look bad in all of this.

Maybe you should worry about your own products instead of trying to make your competition look bad.
 
Craig Mac said:
I can understand why it got personal, you are a competing company "demanding" answers from your competitor and attempting to use golf forums as your "town hall" for debate, which IMO makes you look bad in all of this.

Maybe you should worry about your own products instead of trying to make your competition look bad.
Click to expand...

That is the part he should listen to. Most important advice,I was giving when I started my own business 10 yrs ago.
 
I've no dog in this fight, but have enjoyed the banter. Do we need a mini shoot out and let the testers decide the outcome?
 
I have just one question.

If he were marketing it under the fact that it is 1018 steel and the metal test came back that it wasnt 1018...wouldnt that be marketing fraud? So what is the need for all of this when all you had to do is a metal test at first?
 
of course it got locked over there. it seems like if you say anything negative about Scratch Golf over there you are immediately thrown under the bus by all the fanboys. that attitude almost kept me from buying the wedges in the first place, but i bought them anyway. and like i said, im not unhappy with them at all. but they're definitely not the magic wedges some make them out to be. i can say that i wont be buying them again though. and its not because of any controvery either. its because i want Clevelands next time around. but now im just curious and i would like to know what these are really made of.

TourSpecGolfer said:
So it appears the topic was locked on WRX, it got quite heated as many people took it to a personal level against me.

Of course GXgolfer says that what Ari says will solve everything.

My bottom line here guy's is:

1. I know Ishihara-Shoten doesnt forge golf clubs
2. I know that 1018 will not be used in Japanese produced products from golf to auto's to electronics, etc.. and must be sourced from China
3. I know Mr. Ishihara died 2 years ago of stomach cancer & Ishihara-Shoten gained the name via trademark transfer.
4. I know that their irons are Open model

These 4 things are common Japanese golf industry knowledge

I'm honestly shocked at how they will not listen and let the facts play themselves out.

Ari, if your around please dispute this...

If anyone has any questions let me know.
Click to expand...
 
I find all of this...disturbing...on a number of fronts. Chris seems to raise some valid points, but I don't know enough about club making to determine the validity or importance of those points.

In any case, I hope it gets cleared up soon.
 
I just hope we find out for real if that guy in japan is alive or dead from stomach cancer!
 
We have emails to a half dozen people and 3 have responded and said that the man has in fact passed away. However that does not make it certain, just that quite a few seem to believe that to be the case. Including one from one of the larger Japanese club companies.
 
wow. but Ari is saying he is aliver and well??? What the heck is going on here??? weeeeird....


JB said:
We have emails to a half dozen people and 3 have responded and said that the man has in fact passed away. However that does not make it certain, just that quite a few seem to believe that to be the case. Including one from one of the larger Japanese club companies.
Click to expand...
 
i dont know if im allowed to do this or not, so if not, just please delete this post. but i saw this over on GTI and this cleared up a couple things that i was confused about. i have always wondered about #5. i hope all this can be verified:

Unfortunately, WRX has locked all the posts about the controversy.

The Blog post was not directed at Scratch. They like Miura were examples of the Japanese Golf Manufacturing misconceptions. We personally thought the bigger news would be about Miura. But, as it turns out Scratch is where this controversy is directed by members and commentors, and we need to respond to a few accusations.

What I am stating is well-known Japanese golf industry knowledge.

These are FACTS:

1. Mr. Ishihara of MOZ: The famous wedge grinder and hand polisher who founded the brand MOZ and died 2 years ago from stomach cancer. He did not forge golf clubs.

2. Ishihara-Shoten : This is a middle man company that works between manufactures and the actual factories. They do not forge golf clubs.

3, Ishihara Store : This is the company that recieved the rights to Ishihara MOZ brand with a trademark transfer. They are only a golf shop. They do not forge golf clubs.

4. 1018 Steel is not JIS (Japan Industry Standard). That means that the quality is not up to the Japanese standards for production in any industry such as auto, electronics, even nails. It can only be found in mainland China.

5. Scratch is using Open Model Heads for all 3 irons despite saying they are their original molds. It’s proven that their iron heads are Open Model catalog heads that have existed for almost 10 years at half the price. We questioned them about this several years back.

6. The so called TSG 1018 Ishihara Forged wedge wedge controversy ( It was actually S25C produced by Kyoei )


We can however give them some benefit of the doubt as they do not deal directly with manufactures and use Ishihara-Shoten as a middle man. So they may not know exactly what is happening on the production end of their product.
 
Interesting comments but I personally don't care if any of it's true or not. I will never buy Scratch or Miura clubs. Unless someone is interested in buying them, why should anyone care?
 
lefty said:
I just hope we find out for real if that guy in japan is alive or dead from stomach cancer!
Click to expand...

I think its all a conspiracy by the Stonecutters.

Stonecutters.jpg
 
it's always interesting to see some things come out like this and I can't wait to see what comes of it.

If you don't care thats fine, quite a few do though. I do have Scratch irons and wedges and would like to hear what Ari or anyone from Scratch says on this subject. Evidence talks and Scratch never has any to back them up in these controversies.
 
dynarider said:
Interesting comments but I personally don't care if any of it's true or not. I will never buy Scratch or Miura clubs. Unless someone is interested in buying them, why should anyone care?
Click to expand...

Just cause of this story,doesn't change my mind about how I feel about Miura.Miura is the best club,I've played in 20+ years and I've tried out just about all of them.Whoever forges them does a wonderful job.
 
At first this was a simple blog post stating what i believe about 1018 and exposing that Ishihara doesnt forge golf clubs and trying to clear up misconceptions about certain things. Mostly opinion mixed with what I have learned over the last few years.

But then when I read that Ari was saying I was dishonest and that all I care about profit things got heated. He spoke directly against me and my ethics.

That's why I began to lay it on even thicker and get more aggressive in exposing things they have said that are not true.

I wish he stuck to the facts because I am more than happy to clear up anything that I am wrong about and apologize in a big big way.

My motives are not sales guy's. the less scratch sells doesnt equal more sales for us in my opinion. For the most part our customers dont come from mainstreme forum boards. The majority of our customers don't post in any forums.

I will be 100% honest. I can admit I was upset that we sold our TSG wedge to customers based on the fact they are 1018 Ishihara Forged but other than that really no real motives until Ari decided to paint me as dishonest and greedy.
 
Then please answer the question that everybody is asking...Why did you not do the metal test before the post and why has it still not been done? Its not a hard test to do from my understanding and could clear the whole thing up.
 
JB said:
Then please answer the question that everybody is asking...Why did you not do the metal test before the post and why has it still not been done? Its not a hard test to do from my understanding and could clear the whole thing up.
Click to expand...

Sure no problem the reason is because It's a simple Blog post stating my opinion and what I have learned. Also I don't need to prove the other points about Ishihara forging club, or passing away, open models, etc..

I dont see the main focus as being that they dont use 1018 but rather what 1018 is and other misconceptions about the industry.

Metal test: its gonna be about 20 days. I was speaking with METL today and making sure they can do what is needed. I also wanted to make sure that the club tested was actually pictured in the report. I was concerned that Scratch may send in a 1018 bar or head and request a test so I'm trying to cover every hole.

but then again I don't really know what I would rather see as the result that they use 1018 or S25C. If its 1018 then my opinion was wrong but if its S25C then their product is better than I thought. Again them not using 1018 was not the point of the blog. Its a collective of all the shady things they have done in the name of marketing their product.

You said it yourself your contacts are starting to confirm that Mr. Ishihara did pass away. I have spoken to Ari about this a while back and he even acknowledged it.

Anyway I appreciate you sticking it to us both here. There are other boards that only support one side, I even welcome nay sayers to my forum as well and will not edit or delete their posts.

EDIT: I know Ari comes here, Ari please prove me wrong and I will retract and apologize in a big way.
 
TourSpecGolfer said:
Sure no problem the reason is because It's a simple Blog post stating my opinion and what I have learned.
Click to expand...

But its not a simple blog post and we all know that. Sure you have your blog, but you also own a store and sell your own wedges. It stopped being a simple blog post when the pi**ing matches started all over the internet. Then it became a he said/he said.

In the end, the only thing that matters to THP is honesty. That is it.
 
TourSpecGolfer said:
At first this was a simple blog post stating what i believe about 1018 and exposing that Ishihara doesnt forge golf clubs and trying to clear up misconceptions about certain things. Mostly opinion mixed with what I have learned over the last few years.

But then when I read that Ari was saying I was dishonest and that all I care about profit things got heated. He spoke directly against me and my ethics.

That's why I began to lay it on even thicker and get more aggressive in exposing things they have said that are not true.

I wish he stuck to the facts because I am more than happy to clear up anything that I am wrong about and apologize in a big big way.

My motives are not sales guy's. the less scratch sells doesnt equal more sales for us in my opinion. For the most part our customers dont come from mainstreme forum boards. The majority of our customers don't post in any forums.

I will be 100% honest. I can admit I was upset that we sold our TSG wedge to customers based on the fact they are 1018 Ishihara Forged but other than that really no real motives until Ari decided to paint me as dishonest and greedy.
Click to expand...

seems like you don't know if you're being dishonest yet or not, since you don't know the results of the metal test

I question your ethics for throwing out such accusations that haven't been proven by facts yet, I really don't know why you'd throw yourself and your reputation out there to be examined without knowing 100% that you were right.

conflicts like this are almost never the fault of just one party, it'd be nice if both sides would act a little more mature and honest.
 
lefty said:
seems like you don't know if you're being dishonest yet or not, since you don't know the results of the metal test

I question your ethics for throwing out such accusations that haven't been proven by facts yet, I really don't know why you'd throw yourself and your reputation out there to be examined without knowing 100% that you were right.

conflicts like this are almost never the fault of just one party, it'd be nice if both sides would act a little more mature and honest.
Click to expand...

Ok what can I be more open and honest about?

The only thing unproven is my opinion that it isnt 1018. But I dont see that as the main concern.

Everything else is proven and anyone with industry contacts can prove this.

Ask me anything I will get the answer from reliable sources.

I dont think that because I sell wedges and more that my points are void.

The only people questioning me are the ones who don't know the truth, that's fair and this situation has begun to expost it.

We have Japanese guests reading our forum and they think It's about time things were set straight and consider this very brave and bold move.
 
Last edited:
JB said:
But its not a simple blog post and we all know that. Sure you have your blog, but you also own a store and sell your own wedges. It stopped being a simple blog post when the pi**ing matches started all over the internet. Then it became a he said/he said.

In the end, the only thing that matters to THP is honesty. That is it.
Click to expand...

Well I have been 100% honest.

I stated it was my opinion that it isn't 1018 and I listed what is commonly known in the Japan Golf Industry.

With your sources I'm sure you can find out if I am full of it.

Check on these things:
- Does Ishihara-Shoten Forge Golf Clubs?
- Did Mr. Ishihara Pass Away
- Do any factories use 1018 in Japan?
- Are Scratch heads open model?

and based on those answers you should be able to figure out who has been honest or not. Maybe I'm wrong on one point at the most which could be the 1018 thing but that means little in the big picture of how they are attempting to mislead the consumer.
 
well, i dont care who started what. i just want to know the truth now. i have heard shady things about Scratch Golf too such as the Gene Nead controversy and how it looked like they "signed" Ryan Moore when in fact they "gave" him part of the company (i might have that one wrong though, maybe thats how i just perceived it), and that they "own" their own molds. so i just wanna know the truth.
 
Last edited:
Cja09 said:
............. Evidence talks and Scratch never has any to back them up in these controversies.
Click to expand...

Normally, I would not jump in on something like this...but I read the blogs and so forth and find it interesting....I am a hack and play the more common name brands that dont break the bank.....I have none of the clubs in questions...

What I'd like to think I am good at is reading the masses..(somewhat anyway)

Based solely on what I read, I have to agree with everyone else...
Your initial/ongoing proof is/was from individuals in Japan. These are just individuals and not testing facilities. Do you have any affidavits from these individuals that you could scan and post for the masses to see??? Until you get some concrete evidence...a.k.a. affidavits or the metallurgical reports on the clubs, a lot of people will see it as another club vendor trying to get one up on another vendor via mudslinging...

Again...remember...I dont have a pony in this fight AT ALL.... I am just giving you what I think the masses might be seeing at this particular point in time...

Now..me personally, just based on the research and homework that you have done..I believe there is truth in your argument. I dont think anyone would have gone this far just to besmirch another manufacturer for capital gains.

I believe the metals report will be your salvation should it come back in your favor....

my 2 cents and I am looking forward to the outcome..

bama
 
bama said:
Normally, I would not jump in on something like this...but I read the blogs and so forth and find it interesting....I am a hack and play the more common name brands that dont break the bank.....I have none of the clubs in questions...

What I'd like to think I am good at is reading the masses..(somewhat anyway)

Based solely on what I read, I have to agree with everyone else...
Your initial/ongoing proof is/was from individuals in Japan. These are just individuals and not testing facilities. Do you have any affidavits from these individuals that you could scan and post for the masses to see??? Until you get some concrete evidence...a.k.a. affidavits or the metallurgical reports on the clubs, a lot of people will see it as another club vendor trying to get one up on another vendor via mudslinging...

Again...remember...I dont have a pony in this fight AT ALL.... I am just giving you what I think the masses might be seeing at this particular point in time...

Now..me personally, just based on the research and homework that you have done..I believe there is truth in your argument. I dont think anyone would have gone this far just to besmirch another manufacturer for capital gains.

I believe the metals report will be your salvation should it come back in your favor....

my 2 cents and I am looking forward to the outcome..

bama
Click to expand...

I see what your saying and agree that thats a great way to prove what I am saying.

to be honest I wouldnt go that far as to ask my sources for affidavits and drag them into it by name unless we needed to in court.

Im pretty satisfied already with the info being out there.

Over time people on the U.S side will be more inclined to ask these questions and Scratch will have to answer them in a more careful manner knowing the consumer may be educated on the topic.

Also the truth will begin to leak from other sources eventually proving what I have been saying.

The test will be coming, I havent shipped the heads out yet but will soon. Even if they are using 1018 and my opinion was wrong It's no biggie to me because I know im right about the other stuff. I still do believe its not 1018 though.

On a side note I was impressed with this Forum and it's members, I didnt know about it until member DonDon mentioned it. We added a 125x125 graphic link on GTI.
 
Last edited:
yeah, people here have been MUCH more civil towards you than they were on on WRX. i saw that one post on GTI that mentioned someone on WRX wished death upon you?????? that is just crazy. some people are sick and take this stuff a little to seriously.
i have been curious about the open mold models Scratch uses. do they use all Geotech models? Because I see the AR-1's and the SB-1's in Geotech heads, but I dont think Ive ever seen their EZ-1 head in a Geotech head. Or is that from somewhere else? Or have I just missed that one?
i think that you could come up with 100% definite proof about all of these accusations, but the Scratch Zombies still wont believe you...


TourSpecGolfer said:
I see what your saying and agree that thats a great way to prove what I am saying.

to be honest I wouldnt go that far as to ask my sources for affidavits and drag them into it by name unless we needed to in court.

Im pretty satisfied already with the info being out there.

Over time people on the U.S side will be more inclined to ask these questions and Scratch will have to answer them in a more careful manner knowing the consumer may be educated on the topic.

Also the truth will begin to leak from other sources eventually proving what I have been saying.

The test will be coming, I havent shipped the heads out yet but will soon. Even if they are using 1018 and my opinion was wrong It's no biggie to me because I know im right about the other stuff. I still do believe its not 1018 though.

On a side note I was impressed with this Forum and it's members, I didnt know about it until member DonDon mentioned it. We added a 125x125 graphic link on GTI.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top