Should Pace of Play be Considered in Course Design?

I now sit when waiting and stare at the scenery (whether its nature or a woman) and stop fretting. Is my life really impacted by 3:45 vs 4:11

Good sensible perspective which I will try to remember, thanks.
 
1. It's absolutely their decision. But when guys who play the course regularly routinely try and come up short it becomes a bit of a problem. Should they not be considering others on the course? My assessment of the hole is that the course should take that into consideration. Don't give that player the option.

3. Again, no problem with people waiting for the green to clear. The point of this thread is to address whether the course designer should avoid making people wait, when you can stretch out the hole by 30 or 40 yards and waiting wouldn't even be a conversation for 99% of players (yes, there is room on this course to do so.)

6. More shots = more time for most players.

I'm glad you mention your home course. Do you think they'll follow through with changes? Are the only talks of changes due to pace of play?

1. There is a line between playing your game and considering other players. Sometimes it's hard to know when that line is crossed.

3. I'm one of those guys who wait regardless. It's what I was taught was being courteous. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I hate getting to the green and seeing people in the fairway waiting on me.

6. It's not a given, but that's logical.

I honestly don't know if they are wanting to change it for pace of play reasons or not. It was just a passing comment by the club pro, but he didn't give his rationale. It could be for safety reasons. The green of the par 3 is very close to the tee box of that long par 4. A pulled 5 iron often lands on that tee box. A severely pulled drive on the long par 4 puts those on the par 3 tee box at risk. So usually players wait to hit to keep from catching a stray shot to the temple, which also causes a slow down.
 
I really think many of you are putting far too much into the reachable 4 or 5 as for those being such the enormous reason for slow play problems. I mean honestly. If you truly think about it, with all the truly detrimental reasons for slow rounds it is not imo coming from those one or two reachable holes. The only thing such holes might do is cause a wait on that hole which you don't like but there is no way imo that is why a round which should have taken 355 to 415 ended up taking 445 or 5hrs or even more. It just couldn't be. If your on a round that took 450 , trust me it would be extremely close to being the same even if that reachable hole didn't exist.

One of my county courses has two reachable par4's (one more so than the other) while none the other courses have any and also has a reachable par5 and yet the course playing time for a round is not at all any slower than the other 4 courses in the slightest bit. At the times the play is slow enough to be a real problem the waiting goes on most any hole.

If the people on the course has a percentage of problem slow players within it (for all the reasons that people are slow) it will be slow whether you have reachable par4 or not. And if all the players out there are not a slow play problem (rare thing) , that same hole is not going to now cause a problem slow round. It just isn't. It may cause a wait on that given hole but its just not going to be the enormous reason for a problem slow round. If that exists its because of the people causing it, and not because if the reachable par4.

Think for a moment...….people hit their drives (tee shots) on a reachable p4 just the same way they would if the hole was longer. Some people hit good ones and others hit bad ones just the same. If a group gets to the tee behind them, that new group has to wait for the first group to hit their approaches and or recover whether they are on a longer par4 or a reachable one. Thats all the same regardless. The one difference is that you want to reach from the tee and so you have to wait for the group to clear the green. But here is why it shouldn't matter.....if the hole was not reachable you would be hitting and then walking to your landing spots and while you do that the group ahead would be playing the green and when they clear you can hit. Well....the only thing that's any different is that your not taking the first stroke till the green is clear but you also don't have that same second shot approach attempt either. A whole chunk of the whole is eliminated so your spending less time playing on the hole. All your really doing is trading some time playing the hole for some waiting time. We will in general spend less playing time on the hole in its entirety. We simply traded playing time for waiting time but its still basically the same amount of time.
 
I am not sure course design would really get at slow play. I dont see slow play as a structural issue. I think it is mostly behavioral. In other cases it is the nature of the game. Course design is primarily constrained or facilitated by the property and landscape. I would rather the designer think about the vision for the course and presenting a sequence of holes that bring that vision to life. Player safety and ability to manage the course would be other priorities.
 
But this is almost never the case. For most players it ends up being taking the extra shot AFTER waiting thinking they were only going to hit two.
This times a million. Nothing wrong watching someone wait for the green as you are waiting to tee off when they get on or near. The issue is the idiot waiting for the green to clue then hit it 40 yards in to the rough and then you are still waiting for aid idiot to find it and hit since he still isn't out of your range.

In case you couldn't tell this happens to me a lot.


Even worse is back to back idiots. All that happens then the other group finally tees off to hit 200 or about 70 yards short of the reason they waited only to repeat the mess all over.
 
I am not sure course design would really get at slow play. I dont see slow play as a structural issue. I think it is mostly behavioral. In other cases it is the nature of the game. Course design is primarily constrained or facilitated by the property and landscape. I would rather the designer think about the vision for the course and presenting a sequence of holes that bring that vision to life. Player safety and ability to manage the course would be other priorities.
If I had time I would dig up links in pace of play study and there is a list of things shown that have to do with architecture that effect pace. I mean it might only add 25 minutes to an 18 but there was a big study on it. Not to say behavior doesn't add a ton of time as well, because it very much does.
 
3. Again, no problem with people waiting for the green to clear. The point of this thread is to address whether the course designer should avoid making people wait, when you can stretch out the hole by 30 or 40 yards and waiting wouldn't even be a conversation for 99% of players (yes, there is room on this course to do so.)

But even if they stretched the hole out, wouldn't there still be tee options within reach?
 
Think for a moment...….people hit their drives (tee shots) on a reachable p4 just the same way they would if the hole was longer. Some people hit good ones and others hit bad ones just the same.

I disagree here. I can think of one of my friends who will wait on every driveable 4 and every reachable 5 because he *thinks* that if he can hit it just right, he can get there. Has he ever done it? Nope.

On a normal par 4 he usually tees off once the group is past the 275 range.

I think ego comes into play on short holes. It's understandable. You want to be able to say you did it. But if you can't do it, why wait?

For me, on #3 at the course in question, I just don't hit driver. Sure IF i reallllllly get ahold of it, I can drive the green. I've landed in the greenside bunker once. But I know that the risk reward is far too low to not just put one into the fairway and wedge it in from there. Statistically speaking, I probably have the same if not better odds of pitching in with a wedge than I do or hitting the green (and stopping the ball with a driver) and making the eagle putt.
 
I disagree here. I can think of one of my friends who will wait on every driveable 4 and every reachable 5 because he *thinks* that if he can hit it just right, he can get there. Has he ever done it? Nope.

On a normal par 4 he usually tees off once the group is past the 275 range.

I think ego comes into play on short holes. It's understandable. You want to be able to say you did it. But if you can't do it, why wait?

For me, on #3 at the course in question, I just don't hit driver. Sure IF i reallllllly get ahold of it, I can drive the green. I've landed in the greenside bunker once. But I know that the risk reward is far too low to not just put one into the fairway and wedge it in from there. Statistically speaking, I probably have the same if not better odds of pitching in with a wedge than I do or hitting the green (and stopping the ball with a driver) and making the eagle putt.
But imo its still not causing any huge slow play problem. So he waits for the green to clear. That's not causing a 4 hr round to be a 445 round. Plus the hole is (on your groups side of things) is being played quicker anyway. Like I mentioned your simply for the most part imo just trading some play time for some wait time. This hole is not going to be at all the primary reason you may be in a slow round.
 
I am not sure course design would really get at slow play. I dont see slow play as a structural issue. I think it is mostly behavioral. In other cases it is the nature of the game. Course design is primarily constrained or facilitated by the property and landscape. I would rather the designer think about the vision for the course and presenting a sequence of holes that bring that vision to life. Player safety and ability to manage the course would be other priorities.
whuile I don't thtink reachable holes are that big a deal, I do think course design certainly plays a big role. For instance,....have links style with tall, thick fescue lines holes is a disaster for most anyone who struggles keeping the ball in the fw or in play. Within an average group of bogey players 4somes there is always someone hitting into crap on almost every hole. The ball goes in even just a few feet and it cant be found. It is a huge time detriment. Honestly I don't even play my county link style course for this exact reason unless I know I happen to be playing a good sound tee game. I just wont bother even going there anymore unless my tee game is not good enough. I actually have my PB at this course but I only play it when my tee game is not at all currently an errant one. it just doesn't pay because if not good its a constant ball search. This tal, thick fescue is everywhere and if you are not able to keep the ball well in play your in trouble constantly. Its a bad ida for a public course. It just doesn't work. The play at this course is always 15 to 20 minutes longer than the other county courses. Its automatic simply due to this fescue that is everywhere. The ball goes in even just one hop ( a few feet) and honestly you have a 50/50 chance to even find it and even iof you do you have about a 50/50 chance of getting out. Its just that bad and imo a stupid idea.
 
But imo its still not causing any huge slow play problem. So he waits for the green to clear. That's not causing a 4 hr round to be a 445 round. Plus the hole is (on your groups side of things) is being played quicker anyway. Like I mentioned your simply for the most part imo just trading some play time for some wait time. This hole is not going to be at all the primary reason you may be in a slow round.
It only adds like 5 minutes to his round. The problem usually shows it self 7 groups back after you are done. All those little things end up making for a 5 hour round for the 10am tee time group.
 
It only adds like 5 minutes to his round. The problem usually shows it self 7 groups back after you are done. All those little things end up making for a 5 hour round for the 10am tee time group.
Is it even 5mins? we must consider regardless where our tee shots end up we are closer to the hole and end up getting there quicker because of that. I still believe that perhaps not all but "most" the time is simply just traded between playing vs waiting when on the shorter hole vs the longer one but still about the same time overall.

Im sorry but Im going to have to agree to disagree. That 5 hr round is not imo due to the reachable p4 and or possible two (if there even is another) or that reachable p5. You just cant convince me this is why the 4hr round becomes 5. Just no way.
People are just simply annoyed with that wait and imo wrongfully blame it for the 5 hr round out of frustration. If you are involved in a 5 hr round there is no way in the world that reachable p4 is why it has happened. Far more other reasons there are going on with slow people (players) vs just that.
 
And for the record the short par 4 doesn't slow things down that much compared to the reachable par 5 or a sort of reachable 5 with somewhat blind shots with trouble everywhere.
 
Played a course in Central Illinois yesterday. The design on the back 9 absolutely slows everyone down.

10 is a short par 5. 485y. Everyone goes for it in 2. Back the tees up (there is room) and make it a 3 shot hole.

11 is a 140y par 3.

12 is a 290y par 4 with a 180y forced carry over water. Everyone waits for the green to clear

13 - hard dogleg right. Driver gets you in the woods unless you can hit a fade. Too many people pull driver here.

14 is a hard dogleg left par 5. 140y forced carry over a waste area. Any more than 200y straight out and you’re in the woods unless you hit a draw around a blind corner. A good tee shot leaves you 230 to an elevated green playing at least 40 feet uphill. For me, a layup hole, but both groups in front of us waited for the green to clear.

To top it off - 15 is a 230y par 4 with a 210y forced carry over water if you go at the green. 170y carry to the bailout on the left. The drop area leaves you 140 with OB left and water short AND long.

Whoever designed that stretch gave no thought to pace or to the fact that all the forced carries and doglegs surrounded by deep woods require several good (and smart) golf shots.
 
It only adds like 5 minutes to his round. The problem usually shows it self 7 groups back after you are done. All those little things end up making for a 5 hour round for the 10am tee time group.
Yes,good point.
One course I play often allows a group of 8 to secure the first two tee times every Friday morning. The problem is these two groups play at a 4 hour pace.
My crowd usually has 12 players, and we get the 3,4, and 5th tee times. Our foursomes play at a 3 hour pace. So, our 3 groups wait on the tee boxes and fairways all around the course, as do the groups following us. None of this would happen if the first groups out played at a 3 hour to 3:15 pace.

This particular course has tee boxes adjacent to previous greens, few hazards and, or, places where looking for balls could be time consuming etc.... Pace of play for a foursome here should be 3 hours to 3:15, 3:30 tops.
 
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