Skins Game Unfair?

[links_slayer]

negotiating how many shots and on which holes is almost as fun as the round itself, imo.

depending on the group we won't even bother if we're all around the same number.

 

[fuffle master]

I agree to play off the low handicap, but also think the higher handicap should only get 80% of the 8. So, 6 pops on the six toughest holes when playing skins.

 

[Joshnoble01]

I always thought you should just use the course handicap for choosing the holes. If I am getting the pops and get to choose the holes I am just taking the easiest holes to get them on.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I kinda think skins can get a little wonky for those in the game who are in-between the low and higher cappers. I don't have the data to support my assertion, but it seems the lower-mid cappers can get caught in the middle. A 10 playing a 4 gets 3 strokes per side, but a 10.....IMO....has a better chance of shooting higher than their cap vs. a 4, and if the 10 is up against a 20, the 20 has a better chance of bettering their score by 4 strokes vs. the 10.

 

[leftshot]

In a law of large numbers this is true but in a skins game if an 13 and a 5 play 10 matches the 5 is likely to win more often because they will play to their handicap more often.

Let's explore this some. By the numbers, I don't see this. First, from a statistical standpoint both player's handicaps are calculated using the same formula. Second, a skin is rarely won by playing to your handicap on a given hole. Third, the volatility of the higher handicap player cuts both ways. Even a 30 handicap player will typically make a few pars most rounds. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen a high handicap player make a gross par on a par 4, meaning the low handicap player has to make a HIO to win the hole an eagle 2 to push.

Now one thing we haven't discussed is emotional fortitude. It certainly can be the case that the higher handicap player will tend to be less experienced at handling the pressures of competitive golf and may fail to live up to their handicap potential more often because of this difference.

 

[Chef23]

Let's explore this some. By the numbers, I don't see this. First, from a statistical standpoint both player's handicaps are calculated using the same formula. Second, a skin is rarely won by playing to your handicap on a given hole. Third, the volatility of the higher handicap player cuts both ways. Even a 30 handicap player will typically make a few pars most rounds. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen a high handicap player make a gross par on a par 4, meaning the low handicap player has to make a HIO to win the hole an eagle 2 to push.

Now one thing we haven't discussed is emotional fortitude. It certainly can be the case that the higher handicap player will tend to be less experienced at handling the pressures of competitive golf and may fail to live up to their handicap potential more often because of this difference.

The handicap is calculated based on the top 8 scores. The variance in a 5 handicap's scores is much lower than a 30 handicap. That is why over 10 matches a 5 handicap will win more than half the matches the 5 handicap will play closer to their handicap more often than the higher handicap golfer. Even in the 8 scores for a 30 handicapper the my guess is that half of them will be a fair amount better than their handicap and half of them will be higher. The 5 handicap's scores will be much closer to their handicap.

 

[ArmyGolf]

I wish I tracked all this stuff last year, but our group is a 4, 9, 12, 17. Money seems to circulate mostly equally all year. If a guys game shows improvement or regression in a given year the money reflects it a little.
The 12 and 17 seem to win the most skins, but the 4 and to a lesser extent the 9 keep in it with gross birdie payouts and KPs.

Also keep in mind, 4 way skins is mostly about luck/timing and has nothing to do with fairness. If the 12 and the 17 both make a par on the toughest par 4 the hole just gets pushed and they have nothing to show for it. Its not uncommon for the entire money pot to come down to basically 2 holes that end up being worth 7 or 8 skins.

 

[DG_1234]

For a skins game the equitable format is for gross scores to prevail while net scores get a half shot. A high handicap making a gross par 5 counts as a skins game score of 4.5.
For example , on the handicap #8 hole if there are no gross birdies made, and the 9 handicap player scores a par 4, his "skins game score" for that hole is a 3.5. and he wins a skin.
Or, on the handicap #5 hole a zero handicap scores the only gross birdie 3 for the day, his natural gross birdie defeats all the 5 and above players who made a natural gross par 4 (skins game score 3.5).
The above format makes for a good skins game, allowing a 0 and a 15 handicap player to both have a fair chance of winning a skin (s).

 

[Drumdog]

The difference in handicaps should be played as 1 stroke on the hardest holes.

5 vs 13 = 13 getting 1 stroke on the 8 hardest holes.

 

[DG_1234]

The difference in handicaps should be played as 1 stroke on the hardest holes.

5 vs 13 = 13 getting 1 stroke on the 8 hardest holes.

That is fair for a match play event, not a skins game.

 

[MonroeBob1955]

As many have said skins is a lot different than stroke play. In our group we generally halve it. Eight stroke differential would equate to 2 pops a side (4 strokes). Seems to work well on average.


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[ArmyGolf]

For a skins game the equitable format is for gross scores to prevail while net scores get a half shot. A high handicap making a gross par 5 counts as a skins game score of 4.5.
For example , on the handicap #8 hole if there are no gross birdies made, and the 9 handicap player scores a par 4, his "skins game score" for that hole is a 3.5. and he wins a skin.
Or, on the handicap #5 hole a zero handicap scores the only gross birdie 3 for the day, his natural gross birdie defeats all the 5 and above players who made a natural gross par 4 (skins game score 3.5).
The above format makes for a good skins game, allowing a 0 and a 15 handicap player to both have a fair chance of winning a skin (s).

Interesting. We've never played it this way.
So players receiving a stroke can win a skin that is a gross tie, but they can't push a skin that someone has a better gross score on. Might have to give that one a try.

 

[Guy In Lyon]

Skins is a betting game.
Unless you're at a casino, every betting game is negotiable, and if you're a "whale" every game is negotiable.
If you don't like the deal, don't accept the deal.
I don't see the problem.

 

[DG_1234]

Interesting. We've never played it this way.
So players receiving a stroke can win a skin that is a gross tie, but they can't push a skin that someone has a better gross score on. Might have to give that one a try.

Correct. My regular group of 30 or so players has figured this out as the most equitable skins game format when there is a field of players ranging from Plus or 0 handicap to as high as an 18 handicap. The bottom line is that stroke holes count as a half shot, not a full shot.

 

[DG_1234]

I wish I tracked all this stuff last year, but our group is a 4, 9, 12, 17. Money seems to circulate mostly equally all year. If a guys game shows improvement or regression in a given year the money reflects it a little.
The 12 and 17 seem to win the most skins, but the 4 and to a lesser extent the 9 keep in it with gross birdie payouts and KPs.

Also keep in mind, 4 way skins is mostly about luck/timing and has nothing to do with fairness. If the 12 and the 17 both make a par on the toughest par 4 the hole just gets pushed and they have nothing to show for it. Its not uncommon for the entire money pot to come down to basically 2 holes that end up being worth 7 or 8 skins.

If you are playing in a skins game with only four people one way to "spice it up" is require that the skin is confirmed. Specifically, a skin is only won if the player confirms/validates it on the subsequent hole, by making par or better.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

If you are playing in a skins game with only four people one way to "spice it up" is require that the skin is confirmed. Specifically, a skin is only won if the player confirms/validates it on the subsequent hole, by making par or better.

I like that but wouldn't that more favor the low cap guys? An 18 making two pars in a row, even net pars seems less likely....but the concept is interesting.

 

[DG_1234]

I like that but wouldn't that more favor the low cap guys? An 18 making two pars in a row, even net pars seems less likely....but the concept is interesting.

The difficulty of the confirmation/validation hole is definitely a factor. In other words, when it comes time to confirm, one hopes it is on one of the course's relatively easy holes.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

A buddy of mine played Wolf yesterday. He's a 3 cap, and there was a 7, 11, and 23. He said the 23 guy was rarely picked as a team member which kinda left him out of the game, like not being picked for kickball. Lol.