Some More Golf Swing Science - Increasing Club Speed - How useful is this?

[WILDTHING]

This is related to research done by Dr Sasho MacKenzie

----------------------------
"Ever look at how you use the ground for power? One of the things we know about club head speed.... The more pressure under the lead foot when the shaft is perpendicular to the ground in the downswing, the higher the club head speed. "

"An increase in clubhead speed has to happen through your connection to the club…the hands. • The fastest hips in the world don’t matter if it doesn’t change the forces you apply to the club"

Work done on the club = Change in Energy of the club.

• Linear Work = Force x Distance
• Only the component of Force acting in the direction of travel does work
• Distance refers to the path travelled by the point that force is acting on
• For a golf club, the point of force application at the grip is of interest.

• Angular Work = Couple x Angular Distance
• Only the component of the Couple acting about the axis of rotation does work
• Angular Distance refers to the rotation of the club about the instantaneous axis

Linear work predicts 90% variability in clubhead speed (average force predicts 92% variability in clubhead speed)
Angular work predicts 9% variability in clubhead speed (average couple predicts only 2% increase in clubhead speed)
Gravity work predicts less than 0.01% variability in clubhead speed

Hand path length predicts more predictability in increasing clubhead speed than the 'hand couple' while 'angular' distance have no correlation with increasing clubhead speed.

In general, if a player is short of parallel at the top with driver, there is a good chance that getting them there will increase speed.
Should you :
1. Increase wrist angle?
2. Increase pelvis and/or torso rotation?

• Increasing wrist angle will only change angular distance (no Bueno)
• Increasing pelvis or torso rotation will increase handpath length and angular distance. • More muscles adding energy to the system

Increasing Swing Length
• A 10 cm (~ 4”) increase in handpath length would add an extra 2.4 mph
• A 30° difference in rotation would change clubhead speed by 0.2 mph

Practical Application – Increase Average Force
• Increasing the average force by 5 lbs increases clubhead speed by 7 mph. By far the biggest predictor of clubhead speed.
• “Go-to” for long term and persistent increases
• Physical training
• More nuanced technical modifications (ground interaction, improved kinematic sequence)
• Intent (maximum maximorum clubhead speed)
• Potential ‘quick fix’?

---------------

Hopefully I haven't misinterpreted this research but apparently increasing your wrist cock at the top of the backswing doesn't necessarily have any relationship with clubhead speed. You can create lag angle in the backswing and then try to rotate a greater angular distance around your wrists but that will only predict a 2% share of your clubhead speed. But what about retaining that lag angle closer to release , doesn't that help increase clubhead speed when 'the hands turn the corner' ? So isn't it more likely that a golfer might find it easier to create a greater lag angle at the top of his backswing so that he retains most of it (if not all of it) later in the downswing just before release?

The biggest factor in predicting clubhead speed is creating a greater amount of force along your hand path over a longer effective distance (wouldn't we all intuitively know this?)

Sasho Mackenzie has also mentioned that a faster backswing can also create a faster clubhead speed by impact . This is because you have to apply more force on the club to stop it in the backswing and therefore you have a 'ready made' increased hand force to start applying in the downswing. Not sure about anyone else but purposely swinging faster in the backswing will ruin my tempo in the downswing and although my clubhead speed might increase , the ball is more likely to go sideways.

No mention of the 'shape of the hand path' to influence clubhead speed which I found surprising . For instance if you were pulling along the length of the clubshaft quite actively (with passive oily wrists) and then abruptly changed the direction of your hand path 'pull' , wouldn't that action cause the club to rotate with an increasing angular velocity? I suspect that action is incorporated in the 'Linear Work' aspect of his research because to sharply change hand path direction takes a lot of pull force. That's because the club wants to continue to move in its original direction while the golfer is trying to pull it in another and that causes a big increase in the tension of the shaft which the golfer has to battle against . Therefore the amount of force and 'work' required to do that 'hands around the corner' move must be included in the 'Linear Work' he mentions above .

Not sure if this research is just confirming things that we are already 'intuitively' aware of.

ADDENDUM :
Just thought I'd add something which I found completely weird -look at diagram below about what would happen to the club if you applied a hand couple (ie. Equal force around a mid hand point ) at the grip. So when golf scientists explain the motion of the golf club using inverse dynamics (by resolving the motion into a net force and hand couple), this is the effect the hand couple will have on the club. This is not what I expected!!!

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Lots of great information here. Thanks for posting.

While increasing wrist hinge will add speed, the benefits don't outweigh the costs for most people. The more you hinge your wrists, the more you extend your wrists (try to flex your left wrist at the top, and you'll find it's almost impossible to add hinge for most people)...the more you extend your wrists, the more you open the face, and the more you open your face, the harder it is to shallow out the club on the way down without compensations.

Here's a big reason why: Most players will react to the open face. In order to even have any chance of hitting the ball, they will need to come over the top to even make contact, cast it, (throw all those good angles away) as a squaring mechanism, or have excessive tilt away from target to get the club back inside (get dumped under and hit blocks & hooks)...all of which will reduce speed and cause inconsistency.

I mentioned above for most people...the "don't try this at home kids" disclaimer. That being said, Ben Hogan was probably one of the better examples of how adding more flex in the wrist can create power, as he was one of the Original, OG, Bombers . He had more wrist flexion at the top than needed, then as he came down, his trail arm externally rotated while at the same time, his left wrist flexed to square up the club face...a combo that worked quite well. Mr. Hogan spent countless hours every single day practicing his motion patterns and perfected the extra hinge at the top.

IMHO, regular Average Joe/Jane golfers should be careful not to implement extra wrist hinge for a small speed benefit if it's going to get them fired from work because they have to practice day and night to perfect it.

All in all, great discussion, thanks again for posting!

 

[WILDTHING]

Lots of great information here. Thanks for posting.

While increasing wrist hinge will add speed, the benefits don't outweigh the costs for most people. The more you hinge your wrists, the more you extend your wrists (try to flex your left wrist at the top, and you'll find it's almost impossible to add hinge for most people)...the more you extend your wrists, the more you open the face, and the more you open your face, the harder it is to shallow out the club on the way down without compensations.

Here's a big reason why: Most players will react to the open face. In order to even have any chance of hitting the ball, they will need to come over the top to even make contact, cast it, (throw all those good angles away) as a squaring mechanism, or have excessive tilt away from target to get the club back inside (get dumped under and hit blocks & hooks)...all of which will reduce speed and cause inconsistency.

I mentioned above for most people...the "don't try this at home kids" disclaimer. That being said, Ben Hogan was probably one of the better examples of how adding more flex in the wrist can create power, as he was one of the Original, OG, Bombers . He had more wrist flexion at the top than needed, then as he came down, his trail arm externally rotated while at the same time, his left wrist flexed to square up the club face...a combo that worked quite well. Mr. Hogan spent countless hours every single day practicing his motion patterns and perfected the extra hinge at the top.

IMHO, regular Average Joe/Jane golfers should be careful not to implement extra wrist hinge for a small speed benefit if it's going to get them fired from work because they have to practice day and night to perfect it.

All in all, great discussion, thanks again for posting!

Glad you found it interesting although I suspect it could be 'OTT' for most recreational golfers who are looking for some practical guidance.

The full detailed article is here if you are interested (I re-read it several times to try and understand although some of it still a mystery to me).

www.golfsciencejournal.org/article/12640-how-amateur-golfers-deliver-energy-to-the-driver

 

[DataDude]

More wrist hinge is a double edged sword indeed. All the people I have watched play golf with a lot of wrist hinge are either on tour or suck at golf really bad.

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

More wrist hinge is a double edged sword indeed. All the people I have watched play golf with a lot of wrist hinge are either on tour or suck at golf really bad.

Thank you for taking my long winded response and simplifying it into such a clear and concise comment.

 

[DataDude]

Thank you for taking my long winded response and simplifying it into such a clear and concise comment.

It's just an observation. I marvel at @Canadan's swing because he has so much hinge at the top, and he gets the face square most of the time and absolutely rips it. My 2 friends that do that both spray the ball all over the place. When they catch one square it goes, but they are very prone to tops and hitting it way right. One of them is so bad he would have a max handicap and never beat anyone getting strokes. He hits a ball perpendicular at least once every 9 holes. There just doesn't seem to be much in between with that method of finding distance LOL.

 

[Canadan]

It's just an observation. I marvel at @Canadan's swing because he has so much hinge at the top, and he gets the face square most of the time and absolutely rips it. My 2 friends that do that both spray the ball all over the place. When they catch one square it goes, but they are very prone to tops and hitting it way right. One of them is so bad he would have a max handicap and never beat anyone getting strokes. He hits a ball perpendicular at least once every 9 holes. There just doesn't seem to be much in between with that method of finding distance LOL.

It's a gift and a curse, for sure. Wish I could get the timing right on a more compact swing.

 

[Hamfist]

It's a gift and a curse, for sure. Wish I could get the timing right on a more compact swing.

Dan, this is a genuinely honest question: why would you want to alter what has gotten you to some pretty rarified air in terms of handicap? I understand the drive to constantly improve, but it seems you would be risking your skills to maybe put one last swipe of the whetstone on a razor, possibly breaking the edge.

 

[Canadan]

Dan, this is a genuinely honest question: why would you want to alter what has gotten you to some pretty rarified air in terms of handicap? I understand the drive to constantly improve, but it seems you would be risking your skills to maybe put one last swipe of the whetstone on a razor, possibly breaking the edge.

at some point, the body will start failing and the swing will have to change. It'd be nice to be able to transition easily rather than through pain and etc haha

I'm very much satisfied swinging my swing as Arnie told me to, for the time being.

 

[WILDTHING]

Here's another little golf science snippet from renowned golf biomechanical scientist Dr Sasho Mackenzie (video below explains it better) . But you can see that he has found a high correlation between 'lead foot vertical force' at shaft vertical in the downswing.

There is a more detailed podcast in this link below

 

[pinseeker]

lots to digest here. I don 't think I will pay heed to much. Wrist hinge helps as long as I don't overdo it. When I am making a smooth swing, I feel the wrist cock, but rather than accentuate it, I just let it. Early lag angle sounds like something I may fool around with in as much the concept that forming that angle early might perpetuate it throughout impact. We shall see. In any event, the article has merit and something to ponder.

 

[Smiter]

This is related to research done by Dr Sasho MacKenzie

----------------------------
"Ever look at how you use the ground for power? One of the things we know about club head speed.... The more pressure under the lead foot when the shaft is perpendicular to the ground in the downswing, the higher the club head speed. "

"An increase in clubhead speed has to happen through your connection to the club…the hands. • The fastest hips in the world don’t matter if it doesn’t change the forces you apply to the club"

Work done on the club = Change in Energy of the club.

• Linear Work = Force x Distance
• Only the component of Force acting in the direction of travel does work
• Distance refers to the path travelled by the point that force is acting on
• For a golf club, the point of force application at the grip is of interest.

• Angular Work = Couple x Angular Distance
• Only the component of the Couple acting about the axis of rotation does work
• Angular Distance refers to the rotation of the club about the instantaneous axis

Linear work predicts 90% variability in clubhead speed (average force predicts 92% variability in clubhead speed)
Angular work predicts 9% variability in clubhead speed (average couple predicts only 2% increase in clubhead speed)
Gravity work predicts less than 0.01% variability in clubhead speed

Hand path length predicts more predictability in increasing clubhead speed than the 'hand couple' while 'angular' distance have no correlation with increasing clubhead speed.

In general, if a player is short of parallel at the top with driver, there is a good chance that getting them there will increase speed.
Should you :
1. Increase wrist angle?
2. Increase pelvis and/or torso rotation?

• Increasing wrist angle will only change angular distance (no Bueno)
• Increasing pelvis or torso rotation will increase handpath length and angular distance. • More muscles adding energy to the system

Increasing Swing Length
• A 10 cm (~ 4”) increase in handpath length would add an extra 2.4 mph
• A 30° difference in rotation would change clubhead speed by 0.2 mph

Practical Application – Increase Average Force
• Increasing the average force by 5 lbs increases clubhead speed by 7 mph. By far the biggest predictor of clubhead speed.
• “Go-to” for long term and persistent increases
• Physical training
• More nuanced technical modifications (ground interaction, improved kinematic sequence)
• Intent (maximum maximorum clubhead speed)
• Potential ‘quick fix’?

---------------

Hopefully I haven't misinterpreted this research but apparently increasing your wrist cock at the top of the backswing doesn't necessarily have any relationship with clubhead speed. You can create lag angle in the backswing and then try to rotate a greater angular distance around your wrists but that will only predict a 2% share of your clubhead speed. But what about retaining that lag angle closer to release , doesn't that help increase clubhead speed when 'the hands turn the corner' ? So isn't it more likely that a golfer might find it easier to create a greater lag angle at the top of his backswing so that he retains most of it (if not all of it) later in the downswing just before release?

The biggest factor in predicting clubhead speed is creating a greater amount of force along your hand path over a longer effective distance (wouldn't we all intuitively know this?)

Sasho Mackenzie has also mentioned that a faster backswing can also create a faster clubhead speed by impact . This is because you have to apply more force on the club to stop it in the backswing and therefore you have a 'ready made' increased hand force to start applying in the downswing. Not sure about anyone else but purposely swinging faster in the backswing will ruin my tempo in the downswing and although my clubhead speed might increase , the ball is more likely to go sideways.

No mention of the 'shape of the hand path' to influence clubhead speed which I found surprising . For instance if you were pulling along the length of the clubshaft quite actively (with passive oily wrists) and then abruptly changed the direction of your hand path 'pull' , wouldn't that action cause the club to rotate with an increasing angular velocity? I suspect that action is incorporated in the 'Linear Work' aspect of his research because to sharply change hand path direction takes a lot of pull force. That's because the club wants to continue to move in its original direction while the golfer is trying to pull it in another and that causes a big increase in the tension of the shaft which the golfer has to battle against . Therefore the amount of force and 'work' required to do that 'hands around the corner' move must be included in the 'Linear Work' he mentions above .

Not sure if this research is just confirming things that we are already 'intuitively' aware of.

What I’ve found as a former long driver. As with anything involving speed, you have to have a way to “crack the whip” so to speak. There’s a lot of ways to do that. I developed the worlds longest swing where I went a, ahem, little past horizontal to the ground in my backswing. The only time that speed matters is at impact. Obviously you aren’t going to stop or start the swing at impact so it takes some getting there.

Overspeed training works. Look a BC right now. He’s bulked up AND worked hard at overspeed training. I worked on overspeed training winter of 2017/2018 and gained 10-12mph clubhead speed. I put my clubs up fall of 2018 and didn’t touch them again until spring of 2019. I lost all that I gained, so you have to keep working it to keep the gains.

I bet BC would have recognized most of those gains without bulking up simply by doing the overspeed training that he’s done. If anything when I watched him swing on that video in quest of 205 ball speed, he looked a little stiff. I couldn’t believe he was generating 140 CHS with that swing, until I saw how the club came around his back. Of course most current long drive guys are some large humans, but they usually take much longer swings and usually have some technique to help create a whip like effect.

Their goal is to hit up about 5* on the ball and generate 150+ CHS and 225 ball speed with spin in the 2200 range. Any more than that at those speeds it balloons.

 

[GolfTravelDude]

What I’ve found as a former long driver. As with anything involving speed, you have to have a way to “crack the whip” so to speak. There’s a lot of ways to do that. I developed the worlds longest swing where I went a, ahem, little past horizontal to the ground in my backswing. The only time that speed matters is at impact. Obviously you aren’t going to stop or start the swing at impact so it takes some getting there.

Overspeed training works. Look a BC right now. He’s bulked up AND worked hard at overspeed training. I worked on overspeed training winter of 2017/2018 and gained 10-12mph clubhead speed. I put my clubs up fall of 2018 and didn’t touch them again until spring of 2019. I lost all that I gained, so you have to keep working it to keep the gains.

I bet BC would have recognized most of those gains without bulking up simply by doing the overspeed training that he’s done. If anything when I watched him swing on that video in quest of 205 ball speed, he looked a little stiff. I couldn’t believe he was generating 140 CHS with that swing, until I saw how the club came around his back. Of course most current long drive guys are some large humans, but they usually take much longer swings and usually have some technique to help create a whip like effect.

Their goal is to hit up about 5* on the ball and generate 150+ CHS and 225 ball speed with spin in the 2200 range. Any more than that at those speeds it balloons.

Could you specifically speak to overspeed training....Thank You.

 

[WILDTHING]

Thought I'd add an important point about that Sasho MacKenzie graph , video and podcast. He's not saying adding extra lead foot vertical force will create clubhead speed but is saying there is a correlation.

1.You create the clubhead speed
2. You also create enough rotational momentum to clear your body to allow your arms/club to swing to/through impact before you attempt to add more vertical force via your lead foot. This is all in preparation to manage your balance as the clubs dynamic weight (for a driver full swing) creeps up to 100 lbs force by impact. If you time the increased vertical lead foot force too early , you will stall your body rotation and not allow it to 'get out of the way' of your swinging arms/club into impact.

Apparently the golfer will need to learn this 'unnatural' move , because the pulling down of the club makes you 'weigh less' (ie. equal and opposite reaction forces). So basically the golfer is battling against physics to increase lead foot vertical force by clubshaft vertical in downswing.

So start practice swinging those sledgehammers

 

[pinseeker]

Could you specifically speak to overspeed training....Thank You.

Overspeedn training seems to help. I did not buy the commercial overspeed sticks, but do have a homemade version. I simply put washers at the end of a driver that had an adjustable hosel, I can add or remove washers as needed quickly to change weight.

 

[pinseeker]

Could you specifically speak to overspeed training....Thank You.

here is a link for the super speed training

#1 Golf Swing Speed Training System | SuperSpeed Golf

Improve your distance with the #1 Swing Speed Training System in Golf. SuperSpeed Golf helps players of all abilities increase their swing speed with short video instruction training protocols. Our system is used by over 700 Tour professionals to help them hit longer drives.

superspeedgolf.com

and the protocols: https://superspeedgolf.com/pages/training-protocols

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.

 

[mjkladis]

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.

Getting down to the First Principles!

If I want this club to swing faster, I need strength to handle those forces. You can wind up back to the OP.
While I love reading this thread and nerding out, all of this definitely needs to be done away from a round of golf. Range and LM time is perfect for these ideas.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Getting down to the First Principles!

If I want this club to swing faster, I need strength to handle those forces. You can wind up back to the OP.
While I love reading this thread and nerding out, all of this definitely needs to be done away from a round of golf. Range and LM time is perfect for these ideas.

Exactly. This is fundamental to increasing club head speed since I can remember, and it probably dates back to the 1930's. It's physics.

 

[WILDTHING]

A lot of this 'golf science' is just proving what we probably know intuitively, but its good to have the evidence .

For instance, I now understand why this Shawn Clement technique (he calls it the Centripetal Pump) increased my iron distances by 15 yards using some of the information in the previous posts. I don't think Shawn has a degree in Physics or is an expert in Kinetics but he has found a way (by intuitive feel ) that strangely matches with the information mentioned in those research articles (ie. how to create clubhead speed).

If I didn't have these golf science articles to reference to , I wouldn't have a clue why this technique creates greater clubhead speed. I'd have to depend on golf instructors (many who don't have a degree in physics ) to theorise using their own concepts (and there are plenty of theories out there).

Note that the video was made in 2009 and that these research articles (which seem to validate his instruction) are relatively recent.



PS. After learning to do the feet together drill 'Properly' , I've actually felt what a free-flowing swing actually is and you'll never forget that feeling (its like riding a bike). That's why I can play golf to a reasonable standard almost immediately, even after 9-10 months without hitting a ball with a full swing (you cannot 'lose your swing').

 

[pinseeker]

Not a big fan of Shawn's head bobbing. I personally do not like a lot of head movement aside from a bit of swivel. I am not discounting his message though of using ground forces. Most instructors point out the use of the ground forces, just in different ways whether it be Paul Wilson and his "powerless arms and loose wrists", Martin Chuck and his pelvic thrust, or David Ledbetter and his whatever. It has been pointed out that what they say and what they actually are doing often are not the same. Even things in Ben Hogan's book have been shown not to represent what is really happening. There does seem to be a common thread amongst the better instructors. As pointed out before, the ability for an instructor to communicate to the student is what makes for a successful lesson. I will say that Shawn hitting a seven iron 170 yards with his feet together is remarkable. Maybe just getting his body weight around accounts for it. It kind of makes one wonder how people like Ian Woosnam can hit a ball so far. He is not a large person at all, yet he could boom one out there.

 

[WILDTHING]

David Leadbetter , if I remember correctly , said the 'dog wags the tail' .

Yes , too much knee 'extension/flexion' (which causes the bobbing) can be detrimental which was a problem when I first started that technique . Now my up/down movement is only a few inches but feels strangely like 6 inches but my swing is no longer 'contrived'.

 

[pinseeker]

@WILDTHING yes, he also used to make the analogy to a grass whip/cutter where he would "brush" the turf in both directions.

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Overspeedn training seems to help. I did not buy the commercial overspeed sticks, but do have a homemade version. I simply put washers at the end of a driver that had an adjustable hosel, I can add or remove washers as needed quickly to change weight.
View attachment 8953028View attachment 8953028

Careful not to put too many washers on there, you want to have less weight compared to your driver, NEVER more. More weight will get you strong, but less weight will get you speed. 🌬

 

[pinseeker]

Careful not to put too many washers on there, you want to have less weight compared to your driver, NEVER more. More weight will get you strong, but less weight will get you speed. 🌬

Noted. I believe that I weighed my "stick" and it was pretty close to the "middle" weight of the speed stick system. Using the adjustable hosel, there is a limited amount of washers I can use owing to the "step" in the hosel. If I want a heavier stick, I use larger diameter washers AND smaller diameter to hold them in place. Usually only the smaller ones which seems the best of both worlds.