Tangent Point of Ball to Putter Face

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OLDPRO46

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OK, Folks! Based on my above drawing(I'm not a Design Engineer) can someone tell me how putter manufacturers can make claim to such things as better roll, ball doesn't skip, more overspin for better roll, etc.
From what I've shown in the drawing, and my limited(if any) knowledge of design.......How is this possible? From what I see the ball makes minimal contact on the face of the putter. With the contact being made just 2.7 mm below the top of the putter I am at a loss as to how they do it. While I'm sitting here pondering, another thought comes to mind. While the vertical and horizontal axis of a club seem to be very important, it's appears to me this does not pertain to putters since the horizontal axis is no where near the center of the putter.

I sit here befuddled and in anticipation of some knowledgeable answers.

Thanks from the bottom of my PUTTER!!
 

aljaklaw

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mpeterson

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You don't drag the putter on the ground - it's going to be above the ground when you hit the ball.
 

SquirrelyDave

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You don't drag the putter on the ground - it's going to be above the ground when you hit the ball.
I would think for most people the arc of the stroke will be on an upward trajectory as well wouldn’t it? Maybe not much, but some.
 

mpeterson

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I would think for most people the arc of the stroke will be on an upward trajectory as well wouldn’t it? Maybe not much, but some.
Looking at the video above it looks like it's close to the low point/flat part of the swing, but I would imagine this depends on where you put the ball in your stance.
 

SquirrelyDave

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Looking at the video above it looks like it's close to the low point/flat part of the swing, but I would imagine this depends on where you put the ball in your stance.
Good point, I need more coffee evidently as I watched the video earlier and didn’t even think to watch it again until you mentioned it.

That does look like it’s minimal if any upswing.

There’s another demo video floating around that THP shot at Evnroll showing the skipping and the difference in how soon the ball starts rolling depending on the milling of the face. It’s been a year or two, and I’m on mobile so I don’t have the link handy. It did show that some milling can make the ball roll sooner vs skipping off the face. As I recall there was some skipping still, but significantly less.
 

OLDPRO46

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You don't drag the putter on the ground - it's going to be above the ground when you hit the ball.
Never intended to even suggest that. What I illustrate is a static view of the ball and putter. That's why I asked for knowledgeable answers with regard to how it is determined by design to achieve the results they do considering that the tangent point of the ball against the putter face is only 2.7mm below the top of the putter at address, which means in motion, one would have to have the putter considerably higher for the horizontal axis of the putter to make proper contact with the ball. `
 

OLDPRO46

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Good point, I need more coffee evidently as I watched the video earlier and didn’t even think to watch it again until you mentioned it.

That does look like it’s minimal if any upswing.

There’s another demo video floating around that THP shot at Evnroll showing the skipping and the difference in how soon the ball starts rolling depending on the milling of the face. It’s been a year or two, and I’m on mobile so I don’t have the link handy. It did show that some milling can make the ball roll sooner vs skipping off the face. As I recall there was some skipping still, but significantly less.
Here's a good read I just stumbled across. It answers some of my questions and is interesting.
https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/equipment/equipment-features/the-best-rolling-putter/
 
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JB

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Let me ask you a follow up questions? What do you believe would make a ball skid coming off the putter face? Based on your diagram it would appear that would you make the case that all provide similar?

Are you considering loft?

I can go pretty deep here, but I think with a few factors that have been brought up, it tends to answer.
 

OLDPRO46

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Let me ask you a follow up questions? What do you believe would make a ball skid coming off the putter face? Based on your diagram it would appear that would you make the case that all provide similar?

Are you considering loft?

I can go pretty deep here, but I think with a few factors that have been brought up, it tends to answer.
JB.....If you look closely I show 3* loft angle of the face. Again, everything I'm showing is in a static position. My curiosity is, since the tangent point of the ball is so high on the putter face and the impact area of the 2 is so minute it makes me ask as to how this all can be accomplished in the design to create a better roll, etc.
I must also add after doing some searches, I found a considerable amount of info that gives me a better understanding ie., Quintic Ball Roll, Odyssey, and other reads I have found. You might say, I'm fascinated by it and even in my old age I still thirst for knowledge when it comes to golf.

Also, I do understand the dynamics such as loft, shaft lean and other parts play an important roll in the putter design, which only makes me lean more to recommending a putter fitting for the players I work with.
 

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JB.....If you look closely I show 3* loft angle of the face. Again, everything I'm showing is in a static position. My curiosity is, since the tangent point of the ball is so high on the putter face and the impact area of the 2 is so minute it makes me ask as to how this all can be accomplished in the design to create a better roll, etc.
I must also add after doing some searches, I found a considerable amount of info that gives me a better understanding ie., Quintic Ball Roll, Odyssey, and other reads I have found. You might say, I'm fascinated by it and even in my old age I still thirst for knowledge when it comes to golf.

Also, I do understand the dynamics such as loft, shaft lean and other parts play an important roll in the putter design, which only makes me lean more to recommending a putter fitting for the players I work with.
Yes I see where you wrote 3* but I didn’t see the actual diagram.

Do you believe that regardless of surface, all roll will be the same? Meaning a face with grease on it and a face with sandpaper?

I would also say that unless golfers are brushing the ground with stroke, the numbers may be off.
 

OLDPRO46

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Yes I see where you wrote 3* but I didn’t see the actual diagram.

Do you believe that regardless of surface, all roll will be the same? Meaning a face with grease on it and a face with sandpaper?

I would also say that unless golfers are brushing the ground with stroke, the numbers may be off.
No, I don't believe the roll will be the same. That's not to say I'm correct. Just going by your suggested grease or sandpaper on the face. Keep in mind I come from an era when many a driver has been seen with Vaseline on the face. lol

On your second statement I again would agree. My question is.....since the impact point is so high on the face of the putter at address one really doesn't know how close they are to the horizontal axis of the putter. This is where the human factor comes in and with a fitting.....that can be minimized.
 

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OK, Folks! Based on my above drawing(I'm not a Design Engineer) can someone tell me how putter manufacturers can make claim to such things as better roll, ball doesn't skip, more overspin for better roll, etc.
From what I've shown in the drawing, and my limited(if any) knowledge of design.......How is this possible? From what I see the ball makes minimal contact on the face of the putter. With the contact being made just 2.7 mm below the top of the putter I am at a loss as to how they do it. While I'm sitting here pondering, another thought comes to mind. While the vertical and horizontal axis of a club seem to be very important, it's appears to me this does not pertain to putters since the horizontal axis is no where near the center of the putter.

I sit here befuddled and in anticipation of some knowledgeable answers.

Thanks from the bottom of my PUTTER!!
Manufacturers claim lots of things and can setup tests to illustrate their points. The problem is that everyone swings putters differently and they don't take everything into consideration. You assume 3 degrees of loft, but is that the loft that is occurring at impact? Ball forward will probably have more loft and ball back in stance will have less. A player can also add or decrease loft based on how they use their hands The putters loft is designed to lift the ball out of the depression in the green that the ball is sitting in so elevating the ball is important. Too little loft at impact drives the ball into the ground, too much and you launch the ball too high and it bounces too much. The answer to better roll off the face is fitting the loft to the stroke. Putter face designs to put a better roll on the ball is not about roll, but feel/sound. I do believe that insert and face technology can improve distance control on off center hits based on how much energy is transferred to the ball at impact.
 

mpeterson

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Never intended to even suggest that. What I illustrate is a static view of the ball and putter. That's why I asked for knowledgeable answers with regard to how it is determined by design to achieve the results they do considering that the tangent point of the ball against the putter face is only 2.7mm below the top of the putter at address, which means in motion, one would have to have the putter considerably higher for the horizontal axis of the putter to make proper contact with the ball. `
What I was getting at is that since the club isn't grounded at impact, looking at the static/address position has no bearing on where impact is. Think about driver - the ball is usually teed up at least partially above the club face, but impact is in (or at least should be in) the center of the face. Same thing here, but on a smaller scale.
 

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I have a question, having putted with a Toulon Indy for the last few weeks and seeing very poor results (speed wise) except when I look at the hole instead of the ball like Mr. Spieth does at times.

I have never had this happen with any other putter no matter what brand. (and I am not trying to attack Toulon here, just as an example)

So why would looking at the hole change my speed perception? Off topic a bit but in the realm of why things happen with a certain type putter and not another.
 

aljaklaw

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I have a question, having putted with a Toulon Indy for the last few weeks and seeing very poor results (speed wise) except when I look at the hole instead of the ball like Mr. Spieth does at times.

I have never had this happen with any other putter no matter what brand. (and I am not trying to attack Toulon here, just as an example)

So why would looking at the hole change my speed perception? Off topic a bit but in the realm of why things happen with a certain type putter and not another.
can you make a free throw blindfolded? if so, wow! much easier when you can see your target. similar principle for some.
 

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I have a question, having putted with a Toulon Indy for the last few weeks and seeing very poor results (speed wise) except when I look at the hole instead of the ball like Mr. Spieth does at times.

I have never had this happen with any other putter no matter what brand. (and I am not trying to attack Toulon here, just as an example)

So why would looking at the hole change my speed perception? Off topic a bit but in the realm of why things happen with a certain type putter and not another.
I would venture to guess that it starts to move your process more towards feel. In the previous post about making a free through blindfolded, that would be 100% feel based. Most people when putting fall somewhere between feel an mechanical. The Indy may not fit your current stroke and as a result you are suffering distance control issues. Don’t know if you are long or short or how you determine stroke length but by looking at the hole you are starting to calibrate the new distances the Indy rolls the ball compared to your old putter
 

jim54

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I would venture to guess that it starts to move your process more towards feel. In the previous post about making a free through blindfolded, that would be 100% feel based. Most people when putting fall somewhere between feel an mechanical. The Indy may not fit your current stroke and as a result you are suffering distance control issues. Don’t know if you are long or short or how you determine stroke length but by looking at the hole you are starting to calibrate the new distances the Indy rolls the ball compared to your old putter
I agree with both thoughts, it is a purely mental thing no doubt. The 1 day out with it was wonderful, after that just frustrating.
Could be I came from a toe hang to face balanced model, but I rolled the Indy like a pro during the demo but obviously it did not transfer to the Course for me.

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cnosil

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I agree with both thoughts, it is a purely mental thing no doubt. The 1 day out with it was wonderful, after that just frustrating.
Could be I came from a toe hang to face balanced model, but I rolled the Indy like a pro during the demo but obviously it did not transfer to the Course for me.

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From what I have learned from my instructor is that people will often see short term improvements from new putters, especially face balanced putters, but as time goes on, they fall back to their stroke tendencies and performance can start to degrade.

You can obviously make adjustments to make the putter work for you as you saw during the demo. The big question will be what happens when you encounter those pressure putts. Will you be able to use the “new” stroke or will you fall back to your tendencies.

This is one of the big choices people have to make about putting. Do you adjust your stroke to fit the putter or do you fit the putter to the stroke. Manufacturers seem to be learning to fit the stroke as we see more Mallets with to hang.
 

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