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The 5th Major?

TheDoctor said:
From what I have found whilst following this thread, the biggest push for the Players to become a major is a money-grabbing incentive by the PGA Tour along with those who own the rights to show the event
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No ****. Isn’t that why the WGC’s, and without doubt the FedEx Cup playoffs came into existence. Money talks.

I’m more than happy with the current 4 majors.if the PGA was replaced, I’d like to see the 4th go elsewhere, but as above, the money is here in the States, so there is no way a major is going to be created outside of this TV audience.

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swark said:
Your passion for the Players is genuinely impressive - if every golf fan was as dedicated, the game would be in a much better position (y)

Having said that, the fact that you are, seemingly, pretty much the only person on a forum filled with golf nuts that believes this case, puts a pretty big hole in the plan for it to become a major. No-one person or organisation 'owns' the majors as a collective, and therefore you need to convince all of the golfers, all of the various PGA tours, and all of the world media (as you have said before) to change their history and start commenting / reporting differently. There simply is not the groundswell of support for it to happen, and if the PGA Championship did lose its status, it would be nigh on impossible to get agreement on what should replace it. Yes, US-centric views would think the Players is the obvious replacement, but pretty much no other country will agree (or with each other probably).

Another out-of-the-box approach though; as no-one owns the majors, there is nothing stopping you developing the LICC (List of International Certified Championships?) as an alternative to the Majors. It can be composed of as few or as many tournaments as you wish, and with what ever criteria you like. You then just need to get the rest of the world to come on board with you. You could make billions ....

As an Australian, making the Players (and removing the PGA) as one of the hypothetical LICC Four would be great. Steve Elkington and Adam Scott would be twice the players they are. Greg Norman would finally get the US monkey off his back. Our Kiwi cousins could celebrate Craig Perks alongside Mike Campbell and Bob Charles. OK, so Wayne Grady and David Graham may lose out, but there are always winners and losers.
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Thank you sir!

If the PGA Tour ever had a reason to go to war with the PGA, it could destroy the PGA Championship and elevate the Players over it very easily. There really is no good reason to have that conflict, but if there ever was, the PGA Championship would be relegated to secondary status easily. And to the rest of the world, where most people probably don't even realize the PGA and the PGA Tour are separate entities, most would go right along with it after a year or two.
 
Mark_UK said:
No ****. Isn’t that why the WGC’s, and without doubt the FedEx Cup playoffs came into existence. Money talks.

I’m more than happy with the current 4 majors.if the PGA was replaced, I’d like to see the 4th go elsewhere, but as above, the money is here in the States, so there is no way a major is going to be created outside of this TV audience.

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Do you think money doesn't drive all the tournaments? Do you think the British Open is done for some recreational or charitable purpose?
 
LICC said:
Do you think money doesn't drive all the tournaments? Do you think the British Open is done for some recreational or charitable purpose?
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*yawn


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Well considering the Golf Channel and NBC have the rights to air the event, they obviously want it as another major as getting more viewers means more money for them
 
LICC said:
Thank you sir!

If the PGA Tour ever had a reason to go to war with the PGA, it could destroy the PGA Championship and elevate the Players over it very easily. There really is no good reason to have that conflict, but if there ever was, the PGA Championship would be relegated to secondary status easily. And to the rest of the world, where most people probably don't even realize the PGA and the PGA Tour are separate entities, most would go right along with it after a year or two.
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Again, I think this is where we start to disagree on outcomes. Beman very clearly tried to establish the Players as a major (that he controlled) to challenge the PGA Championship - if he could have 'destroyed' the PGA Championship in order to elevate the Players, he would have done so. Regardless of this, in your mind, he has succeeded in getting the Players to a major, whereas I simply don't see it that way.
 
swark said:
Again, I think this is where we start to disagree on outcomes. Beman very clearly tried to establish the Players as a major (that he controlled) to challenge the PGA Championship - if he could have 'destroyed' the PGA Championship in order to elevate the Players, he would have done so. Regardless of this, in your mind, he has succeeded in getting the Players to a major, whereas I simply don't see it that way.
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He tried to get the Players as a 5th major status. Remember, for the first 8 years or so after the break-off by the tour, the PGA still had representatives on the PGA Tour Board. And trying to get the Players as an additional major made better sense than attacking the PGA.
BUT, if it did ever come down to it, all the Tour has to do is schedule the Players in conflict with the PGA and have the Tour players skip it for the Players.
 
I guess that would be one way to determine whether players feel a Major win is worth more or less than a run-of-the-mill Tour win
 
LICC said:
BUT, if it did ever come down to it, all the Tour has to do is schedule the Players in conflict with the PGA and have the Tour players skip it for the Players.
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Would be fascinating to see what would happen if that was to occur, and how hard the Tour would pressure the players to play the Players. I would still expect a large percentage, particularly of overseas players, to choose the PGA Championship unless there were direct (and, more likely, indirect) sanctions. Hopefully we will never find out.
 
LICC said:
He tried to get the Players as a 5th major status. Remember, for the first 8 years or so after the break-off by the tour, the PGA still had representatives on the PGA Tour Board. And trying to get the Players as an additional major made better sense than attacking the PGA.
BUT, if it did ever come down to it, all the Tour has to do is schedule the Players in conflict with the PGA and have the Tour players skip it for the Players.
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I'd love to see that. I can't imagine more than a handful (if that) players would choose to play a 2nd tier tournament over a Major tournament when that's what their careers are measured by.
 
swark said:
Would be fascinating to see what would happen if that was to occur, and how hard the Tour would pressure the players to play the Players. I would still expect a large percentage, particularly of overseas players, to choose the PGA Championship unless there were direct (and, more likely, indirect) sanctions. Hopefully we will never find out.
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The Tour is the tour players. This scenario would only happen if the players, especially the top players, bought in and wanted to do it. And if it did, the Players would replace the PGA as a major in no time at all and all the non-US players would skip the PGA.
 
LICC said:
I wouldn't propose retroactively changing anything, or adding a major. It would make sense going forward to replace the PGA as a major with the Players.
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Ahh.. Very interesting idea. Hmm.. I would have to think about this.. The PGA doesn't excite me that much..
 
LICC said:
The Tour is the tour players. This scenario would only happen if the players, especially the top players, bought in and wanted to do it. And if it did, the Players would replace the PGA as a major in no time at all and all the non-US players would skip the PGA.
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APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE - LONG POST

Again, and I say this respectfully, that is a very US-centric response. While the USPGA Tour is the biggest show in town, it is not the only show, and if it started to play silly buggers and trying to force players into choosing the Players over the PGA Championship, many internationals may instead decide to go to Europe permanently and would still be able to play the three US Majors anyway.

I remember back in the early 2000s, PGA Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem tried to force Ernie Els, then a really big name, to play more US events in order to keep his card while also playing around the world. They backed down when Ernie forced their hand by saying that he would simply go and play in Europe instead (this is, of course, a vast over-simplification of the negotiations that undoubtedly took place behind the scenes).

I regularly read on here that the Masters is clearly the most prestigious Major. In Australia and Europe, lots of people would disagree with this vehemently, with the Open being very much seen as the one to win. In terms of US majors, general consensus would have the Masters is higher ranked than the US Open, but not by much, and mainly because the US Open organisers seem to keep shooting themselves in the foot with their decisions regarding course setup. We all agree the PGA is the fourth of the big four.

If we never agree on anything else, hopefully you can understand that not everyone sees the USPGA Tour (in fact, the US in general) as the only place to be. For many Australians, South Africans, Asians etc, the European Tour is actually seen as the preferred option. Scott Hend (as an example) played in the US in his earlier years, but hasn't tried to go back there permanently as the other tours suit him more. He does still go back to America (he is first off tomorrow morning in Mexico for example), but he has no desire to play there consistently instead of Europe and Asia. One case does not make evidence, but it does show that not everyone is obsessed with the USPGA to the complete exclusion of everything else.
 
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swark said:
APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE - LONG POST

Again, and I say this respectfully, that is a very US-centric response. While the USPGA Tour is the biggest show in town, it is not the only show, and if it started to play silly buggers and trying to force players into choosing the Players over the PGA Championship, many internationals may instead decide to go to Europe permanently and would still be able to play the three US Majors anyway.

I remember back in the early 2000s, PGA Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem tried to force Ernie Els, then a really big name, to play more US events in order to keep his card while also playing around the world. They backed down when Ernie forced their hand by saying that he would simply go and play in Europe instead (this is, of course, a vast over-simplification of the negotiations that undoubtedly took place behind the scenes).

I regularly read on here that the Masters is clearly the most prestigious Major. In Australia and Europe, lots of people would disagree with this vehemently, with the Open being very much seen as the one to win. In terms of US majors, general consensus would have the Masters is higher ranked than the US Open, but not by much, and mainly because the US Open organisers seem to keep shooting themselves in the foot with their decisions regarding course setup. We all agree the PGA is the fourth of the big four.

If we never agree on anything else, hopefully you can understand that not everyone sees the USPGA Tour (in fact, the US in general) as the only place to be. For many Australians, South Africans, Asians etc, the European Tour is actually seen as the preferred option. Scott Hend (as an example) played in the US in his earlier years, but hasn't tried to go back there permanently as the other tours suit him more. He does still go back to America (he is first off tomorrow morning in Mexico for example), but he has no desire to play there consistently instead of Europe and Asia. One case does not make evidence, but it does show that not everyone is obsessed with the USPGA to the complete exclusion of everything else.
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America is by far the biggest and richest market for golf overall. There is no way any US major would be replaced by a non-US tournament in any foreseeable future. Sure, in Australia a local championship can have more interest to locals, but that has zero to little interest to non-Australians. If Scott Hend was a top-10 talent he would be playing more US PGA Tour events. And it is indisputable that the Masters is the most watched event in golf.
 
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