The focus has to be reproducing what works best in your swing.

[Luchnia]

After playing with some low handicap golfers (around 5-10) and carefully observing how they play there is one thing that I see over and over again in their game and that is they are super consistent in repeating what works for them. To me, it does not seem to be much more than that. I don't think these guys buy into all the tips and secrets and such. They simply play and play well.

I realize this has to do with a number of variables, yet they are able to reproduce this "constant" effort time and time again which shows in their scores. Their drives, irons, chipping/pitching and putting are what seems unchangeable even though they each might have some individual characteristics with their shots. One may be a draw player, the other a fade player. One may use the putter this way, the other that way. Sure they may have a bad day, but overall they will come back to what works time and time again.

While playing with them I tend to compare what I do with what they do. That is the analysis part of me ticking away. The thing that I think separates us is the fact that I don't have the consistency they have which may be partly based on confidence of knowing what works repeatably well, not so much confidence in my ability to perform.

For example, I can out drive them probably 60-70% of the time when with them, but I won't be anywhere close to as consistent with all my fairways. Watching their drives is almost like watching a film clip repeat itself over and over again. The same pretty much goes with every other part of their game. I am trying to nail this down so I can work on it and develop that repeatable success level.

I am thinking they have learned something as simple as repeating what is successful for them, yet is it pre-shot, positioning over ball, body stillness, mental focus, etc., or a combination of things, that permits them to return to the same place each time? Or do they even care about those things and have simply learned, this is what works for me?

Thoughts on this?

 

[Acesteve]

Over my years I've played with 2 kinds of really good players. (1) the college golfer who swung hard, banged putts in the hole, etc and (2) the boring ball flight guy who to watch was not spectacular but the scorecard said otherwise. In the boring group, relatively low spin balls hit online over and over. I don't recall non-spectacular group being great putters. They were so near the hole they could hit 4ft putts for par most holes. clearly both groups had repeatable swings and generally swings with good fundamentals.

my belief is that whats makes a good player what he is is not the setup or a perfect swing. Rather it is what I don't see easily in the actual swing. The boring golf group had a distinct contentedness of the arms to the core; especially the right elbow or a right hand player. Took me years to understand what I was seeing. It looks kind of like skipping a rock. Inherently being in sync slows the arms down a bit to the speed of your core until impact. Maybe this explains why hi handicap guys can hit the ball as long a some low handicap guys yet explains the drastic difference in ball control

 

[Knot Right]

After playing with some low handicap golfers (around 5-10) and carefully observing how they play there is one thing that I see over and over again in their game and that is they are super consistent in repeating what works for them. To me, it does not seem to be much more than that. I don't think these guys buy into all the tips and secrets and such. They simply play and play well.

I realize this has to do with a number of variables, yet they are able to reproduce this "constant" effort time and time again which shows in their scores. Their drives, irons, chipping/pitching and putting are what seems unchangeable even though they each might have some individual characteristics with their shots. One may be a draw player, the other a fade player. One may use the putter this way, the other that way. Sure they may have a bad day, but overall they will come back to what works time and time again.

While playing with them I tend to compare what I do with what they do. That is the analysis part of me ticking away. The thing that I think separates us is the fact that I don't have the consistency they have which may be partly based on confidence of knowing what works repeatably well, not so much confidence in my ability to perform.

For example, I can out drive them probably 60-70% of the time when with them, but I won't be anywhere close to as consistent with all my fairways. Watching their drives is almost like watching a film clip repeat itself over and over again. The same pretty much goes with every other part of their game. I am trying to nail this down so I can work on it and develop that repeatable success level.

I am thinking they have learned something as simple as repeating what is successful for them, yet is it pre-shot, positioning over ball, body stillness, mental focus, etc., or a combination of things, that permits them to return to the same place each time? Or do they even care about those things and have simply learned, this is what works for me?

Thoughts on this?

Hard to say....but I think you answered your own question.

"confidence of knowing what works repeatably well"

We both know that confidence is a byproduct of repetition.

Assuming that your swing is basically sound, then it all comes down to finding the one shot that is the most easily repeatable for you. (fade or draw) Then you need to hit enough balls to ingrain your swing to your mind's eye and muscle memory to the point that you can instantly recognize what happened when you miss hit. It doesn't come easy and you have to be willing to put in the time and effort.

The better players that I have hung out with for years all have the same things in common, which is a repeatable swing, playing to the percentages (discipline), and a decent short game.

Where in Va are you?

 

[Flipit]

What Ive noticed with the better players Ive played with. When they step up to the ball they are ready to go. What I mean is they step in and swing. Doesn't seem like a lot of thinking is going on.

 

[Luchnia]

Hard to say....but I think you answered your own question.

"confidence of knowing what works repeatably well"

We both know that confidence is a byproduct of repetition.

Assuming that your swing is basically sound, then it all comes down to finding the one shot that is the most easily repeatable for you. (fade or draw) Then you need to hit enough balls to ingrain your swing to your mind's eye and muscle memory to the point that you can instantly recognize what happened when you miss hit. It doesn't come easy and you have to be willing to put in the time and effort.

The better players that I have hung out with for years all have the same things in common, which is a repeatable swing, playing to the percentages (discipline), and a decent short game.

Where in Va are you?

I am about 35 miles west of Richmond.

 

[Luchnia]

What Ive noticed with the better players Ive played with. When they step up to the ball they are ready to go. What I mean is they step in and swing. Doesn't seem like a lot of thinking is going on.

I will say that was something I saw too while observing. Most of the time they step in and execute.

 

[OldandStiff]

I'm a big believer in repeatability. Almost everyone has something weird in their swing they or someone else would like to change, but being able to make the same swing again and again is more valuable to me than hitting the perfect positions. I like what you said about the confidence in being able to or knowing what that repeatability will get you, too.


The rest of these observations are really interesting, and reinforce my belief in repeatability above just about everything else.

 

[JonMA1]

Before coming over to THP, I was part of a forum that believed "a golfer's swing is always the same". Anytime a high capper talked about wanting a consistent swing, there would be the guaranteed response of "your swing is already consistent".

While I get the gist - that our swing generally looks the same, and that some of the poor mechanics are consistent regardless of results - I've always thought it was BS on a more detailed level. The few times that I've played with better players, I noticed some of the same things you mentioned @Luchnia . Attributes such as tempo and effort are so much more consistent than my herky jerky, spastic, lunging, off-balance, abomination of what I call a golf swing. There are also so many inconsistencies in my swing in general areas such as shoulder turn, weight shift, tempo, grip, stance... and I have video to prove it. Not only that, what I do on the practice range is nowhere near what shows up on the course.

So I'm not buying the "swing is always the same" opinion when it comes to all golfers at my level. But I do believe the better a golfer is, the more consistent everything about their swing is. If there is a change from one swing to another with these players, it's because there's premeditated reason for it.

 

[Gus R]

I thought I was a pretty good player until I played with a guy at our course that ended up playing on the Canadian Tour for awhile. I felt like a 15 handicapper. He was long, but the thing that impressed me was the consistency of his game. If he happened to hit a bad shot, which was seldom, he hit the next shot to completely recover. Nothing bothered him during the game. If it was slow play he played the same. If he made a mistake he rectified it and acted like it just normal. He did not get upset or let anything upset him. Total focus. The first time I played with him was in a tournament. His front nine was so so 38 and I though this guy is not as good as they say. He then shot 28 with a lip out on the only hole he did not birdie. Really impressed me that day.

 

[Luchnia]

You guys are hitting on exactly what I am trying to convey in my post!

 

[BigMac]

I think you pretty much nailed it in your first post:

1) They've developed/ingrained a sound, repeatable swing that works for them (grip, stance, setup, etc.), and they can swing it without thinking about it.

2) They're confident in being able to execute - the mental aspect of golf is huge.

3) They stay within themselves and play to their strengths.

Watching Matthew Wolff today in the Skins game was a great example. He has one of the quirkiest, most bizarre swings you'll ever see. At various points in the show they broke down the four players' positions at address, at the top, at impact and post-impact. His position at the top was completely whacked compared to Rory, DJ and Rickie - yet Wolff was an NCAA champion last year and won his first Tour event almost immediately after turning pro. His swing works for him, it's repeatable, and he's confident in it.

 

[Luchnia]

3) They stay within themselves and play to their strengths.

I think this one affects me more than anything. I am always wanting to get outside of myself and it affects my game. If I could simply play to my strength I think I would be so much better at the end of the day. Part of that is that I cannot always find, or maybe remember is the better word, a/the repeatable swing that I know works the best for me.

 

[Hamfist]

I think this one affects me more than anything. I am always wanting to get outside of myself and it affects my game. If I could simply play to my strength I think I would be so much better at the end of the day. Part of that is that I cannot always find, or maybe remember is the better word, a/the repeatable swing that I know works the best for me.

Ah, how well I know this one. It's just a matter of time, patience, clinical observations, good instruction, and application. I think that clinical observation is a very important aspect. After a bad swing, to be able to coldly and unemotionally ask why something happened can open the door to a better game. Golf, for many, is a very emotional endeavor. We hit real highs and real lows, sometimes in the space of two swings.

 

[Luchnia]

Ah, how well I know this one. It's just a matter of time, patience, clinical observations, good instruction, and application. I think that clinical observation is a very important aspect. After a bad swing, to be able to coldly and unemotionally ask why something happened can open the door to a better game. Golf, for many, is a very emotional endeavor. We hit real highs and real lows, sometimes in the space of two swings.

My question is, how in the heck can we get control of keeping the swings closer to the same? I think there has to be something in each of us that can find that place of constant in the swing, or as you put it "...why something happened..." but maybe I am just dreaming. It amazes me how I can wake up one day and not hit balls basically the same (at least for the most part) as I did the day before and with the way my mind works, I think I should be able to figure that out.

 

[Hamfist]

My question is, how in the heck can we get control of keeping the swings closer to the same? I think there has to be something in each of us that can find that place of constant in the swing, or as you put it "...why something happened..." but maybe I am just dreaming. It amazes me how I can wake up one day and not hit balls basically the same (at least for the most part) as I did the day before and with the way my mind works, I think I should be able to figure that out.

Well, I'm pretty sure it will remain an enigna unless you have the magic formula of T (time) + $ (money) x p (practice) = U (understanding)

 

[JonMA1]

My question is, how in the heck can we get control of keeping the swings closer to the same?

In the short time you'e been posting here, it seems like your scores have come down. You seem very much a student of the game, you keep an open mind, and take improvement seriously. I think that leaves ability as the only limitation towards building a reliable and repeatable swing.

My personal opinion is that the swing becomes "simple" or "easy" at some point - though I've yet to experience that for a sustained period of time. From what I've heard or read from better players, there is little thought about how to swing a club, only focus and confidence.

I've experienced a touch of this on my better rounds. On most other rounds, I'm thinking and doubting far too much while addressing the ball. Good results are often a surprise instead of an expectation.

 

[Sean]

I play golf with a few golfers that are scratch to 3 HI's. What I have noticed is that they have a repeatable swing they trust, therefore the swing for them is automatic, i.e., they don't think, they just swing. Most of us are constantly changing, and/or tinkering with our swings, and because of that we can't help but think all the time during out swing.

 

[SunnyWalker]

There's a whole lot more to playing good/decent golf than having a repeatable golf swing. Most of the players(5-12 handicpers) I know hardly ever think they are really "swinging" the club all that well. They just have a consistent process and manage what they have well. Granted, the better you can strike the ball, the easier the game can be, but most good players keep it in play and grind it out.

 

[JonMA1]

There's a whole lot more to playing good/decent golf than having a repeatable golf swing.

I guess if one's repeatable golf swing isn't very good, this is true. Maybe the better players are repeatedly doing all the big parts of the swing correctly and close to automatically???

I don't know how to accept my swing - as it currently is - as good enough to play a round of golf. I'm at the course trying to figure out why I hit the last couple shots so poorly. Among other things, this is probably detrimental.

Granted, the better you can strike the ball, the easier the game can be

I think this is more the case, in my opinion. Again, limited knowledge here so I could be completely wrong, but I've seen players in the 5-12 range hit shots that even I would be upset about. The difference being they're not hitting those shots all day long.

A "miss" could be defined by different levels and cost a variety of strokes or partial strokes. 1) A slightly thinned, or slightly pulled shot, for examples, may cost a fraction of a stroke. Meaning, it just makes the next shot a little tougher. 2) A more severe duff or pull can cost an entire stroke because it leaves the next shot to require a punch out or layup instead of a good approach. 3) Shots that are so bad, they result in a penalty and cost 2 strokes.

The 5-12 players make the first kind of miss throughout the round. The results are not ideal but are not that costly, and these players have the game to recover. For the high-capper, we're happy if our round consists mostly of these... but of course they rarely do.

The 5-12 will hit a few of the second type of miss throughout the round, but it's an exception not the rule. Their focus on a round is trying not to let this miss get out of control. For the high-capper, this is normal golf. It happens very frequently and we are constantly punching out or laying up. And our game is poor enough that we can fail at even a simple punch out. This is where the strokes lost start to pile up and we don't have the ability to make birdies to counter.

The third type of miss happens to good players, but they'll often play rounds where they don't lose a ball. And when they do experience a penalty, they just take their medicine and try to get those strokes back by hitting a birdie or two when the opportunity presents itself throughout the rest of the round. For the high capper, we rarely go through a round without a few of these.

As the round progresses, the constant inability to reduce mistakes starts to get me. I get frustrated, lose focus, and even start making changes to my swing. While the game is frustrated at every level, I don't think better players are so quick to deviate from a swing they know is fundamentally sound.

If I'm wrong, please let me know. But those are my observations... generally speaking.

 

[Hamfist]

I guess if one's repeatable golf swing isn't very good, this is true. Maybe the better players are repeatedly doing all the big parts of the swing correctly and close to automatically???

I don't know how to accept my swing - as it currently is - as good enough to play a round of golf. I'm at the course trying to figure out why I hit the last couple shots so poorly. Among other things, this is probably detrimental.



I think this is more the case, in my opinion. Again, limited knowledge here so I could be completely wrong, but I've seen players in the 5-12 range hit shots that even I would be upset about. The difference being they're not hitting those shots all day long.

A "miss" could be defined by different levels and cost a variety of strokes or partial strokes. 1) A slightly thinned, or slightly pulled shot, for examples, may cost a fraction of a stroke. Meaning, it just makes the next shot a little tougher. 2) A more severe duff or pull can cost an entire stroke because it leaves the next shot to require a punch out or layup instead of a good approach. 3) Shots that are so bad, they result in a penalty and cost 2 strokes.

The 5-12 players make the first kind of miss throughout the round. The results are not ideal but are not that costly, and these players have the game to recover. For the high-capper, we're happy if our round consists mostly of these... but of course they rarely do.

The 5-12 will hit a few of the second type of miss throughout the round, but it's an exception not the rule. Their focus on a round is trying not to let this miss get out of control. For the high-capper, this is normal golf. It happens very frequently and we are constantly punching out or laying up. And our game is poor enough that we can fail at even a simple punch out. This is where the strokes lost start to pile up and we don't have the ability to make birdies to counter.

The third type of miss happens to good players, but they'll often play rounds where they don't lose a ball. And when they do experience a penalty, they just take their medicine and try to get those strokes back by hitting a birdie or two when the opportunity presents itself throughout the rest of the round. For the high capper, we rarely go through a round without a few of these.

As the round progresses, the constant inability to reduce mistakes starts to get me. I get frustrated, lose focus, and even start making changes to my swing. While the game is frustrated at every level, I don't think better players are so quick to deviate from a swing they know is fundamentally sound.

If I'm wrong, please let me know. But those are my observations... generally speaking.

This is a well-stated view. I concur with all the points.

That's why I have a tendency to want to play a conservative, "I'd rather be short and safe." type of game. Bunting irons down the middle helps eliminate my need for recovey shots. Which is a good thing. It also limits my need for aggressive "need to make a par here." types of shots. (Let's face it, birdies are like finding a fiver in the dryer. Nice surprise, but not expected.)

Now, that approach, while limiting the big misses, has it's own trap. If we don't get the ball far enough, we're still looking at an extra shot or two to get either on the green, or close to the cup.

So, we have to pick out poison.

My advice, from a lifelong 25+ HC'er, is to think about a target, all the way through the swing. I try to pick a target (tree, or whatever) and just hold the image as I swing. It helps me just swing the club, and not think about it.

 

[Luchnia]

I guess if one's repeatable golf swing isn't very good, this is true. Maybe the better players are repeatedly doing all the big parts of the swing correctly and close to automatically???

I don't know how to accept my swing - as it currently is - as good enough to play a round of golf. I'm at the course trying to figure out why I hit the last couple shots so poorly. Among other things, this is probably detrimental.



I think this is more the case, in my opinion. Again, limited knowledge here so I could be completely wrong, but I've seen players in the 5-12 range hit shots that even I would be upset about. The difference being they're not hitting those shots all day long.

A "miss" could be defined by different levels and cost a variety of strokes or partial strokes. 1) A slightly thinned, or slightly pulled shot, for examples, may cost a fraction of a stroke. Meaning, it just makes the next shot a little tougher. 2) A more severe duff or pull can cost an entire stroke because it leaves the next shot to require a punch out or layup instead of a good approach. 3) Shots that are so bad, they result in a penalty and cost 2 strokes.

The 5-12 players make the first kind of miss throughout the round. The results are not ideal but are not that costly, and these players have the game to recover. For the high-capper, we're happy if our round consists mostly of these... but of course they rarely do.

The 5-12 will hit a few of the second type of miss throughout the round, but it's an exception not the rule. Their focus on a round is trying not to let this miss get out of control. For the high-capper, this is normal golf. It happens very frequently and we are constantly punching out or laying up. And our game is poor enough that we can fail at even a simple punch out. This is where the strokes lost start to pile up and we don't have the ability to make birdies to counter.

The third type of miss happens to good players, but they'll often play rounds where they don't lose a ball. And when they do experience a penalty, they just take their medicine and try to get those strokes back by hitting a birdie or two when the opportunity presents itself throughout the rest of the round. For the high capper, we rarely go through a round without a few of these.

As the round progresses, the constant inability to reduce mistakes starts to get me. I get frustrated, lose focus, and even start making changes to my swing. While the game is frustrated at every level, I don't think better players are so quick to deviate from a swing they know is fundamentally sound.

If I'm wrong, please let me know. But those are my observations... generally speaking.

You mention reduce misses and I think that is a key area of importance. I still think something is to be said for a solid repeatable swing - let me state an accurate repeatable swing. Just because I can repeat a 250+ yard carry if it is all over the place my game is going to suffer. I am really not so much seeking distance now as I am more accuracy on my drives.

Yesterday I was experimenting some and found something about myself that I don't really think of much. While practicing with my driver I noticed that if I take a wide backswing I can certainly hit a nice drive, yet what produces almost as good shots with less effort astounded me.

I can take a shorter back swing and more aggressively accelerate through the ball (producing about the same swing speed) in much less distance. Amazing how I can just about produce the same swing speed in just three to four feet (feels like 3 to 4 feet) than what I can produce from all the way back in my back swing is crazy. The thing is, I can do that over and over again much easier and almost produce the same yardage and in a few cases the same or more.

There was no doubt the consistency of the hits off the face of the club were much better, yet overall yardage was slightly shorter. I plan to practice my acceleration through the ball through that 3 to 4 foot zone and see how it turns out. Fuller swings may not be the answer for me with my driver just because of my tendance to move differently.

Also, I had so much less stress on my body, or at least it felt like less stress - sometimes that is hard to determine until later. To me the wider/larger swing has more room for error because I might tend to adjust during the swing more such as in move my body more, head more, arms more, etc. I have to maintain stability or I get into trouble.

 

[tahoebum]

What Ive noticed with the better players Ive played with. When they step up to the ball they are ready to go. What I mean is they step in and swing. Doesn't seem like a lot of thinking is going on.

Your brain has a much better chance of interfering the longer you stand over the ball/the more you deviate from your normal preshot routine. Shutting the the left side of my brain off and not caring about the outcome of the shot is the best way for me to play better and produce swings that more repeatable. The mental importance in the game can't be understated.

"You swing your best when you have the fewest things to think about."

Bobby Jones

"Some golfers think they are concentrating when they're merely worrying."

Bobby Jones

 

[Scorp]

This is a well-stated view. I concur with all the points.

That's why I have a tendency to want to play a conservative, "I'd rather be short and safe." type of game. Bunting irons down the middle helps eliminate my need for recovey shots. Which is a good thing. It also limits my need for aggressive "need to make a par here." types of shots. (Let's face it, birdies are like finding a fiver in the dryer. Nice surprise, but not expected.)

Now, that approach, while limiting the big misses, has it's own trap. If we don't get the ball far enough, we're still looking at an extra shot or two to get either on the green, or close to the cup.

So, we have to pick out poison.

My advice, from a lifelong 25+ HC'er, is to think about a target, all the way through the swing. I try to pick a target (tree, or whatever) and just hold the image as I swing. It helps me just swing the club, and not think about it.

In the past, i've always tried to play the longest club I can to get the most distance for each shot... so I can get to that magic 100 yard approach shot. Usually that second shot was from the left side of the fairway as I sliced the ball over there (left handed player here)... I'm thinking I'll be more conservative in my shot choice and use a shorter club because I seem to be able to hit them straighter...

Grip it. Rip it. Don't think too much. That's a double edged sword for me... too few swing thoughts and my swing is a shambles. Too many and it's a shambles.

 

[Hamfist]

In the past, i've always tried to play the longest club I can to get the most distance for each shot... so I can get to that magic 100 yard approach shot. Usually that second shot was from the left side of the fairway as I sliced the ball over there (left handed player here)... I'm thinking I'll be more conservative in my shot choice and use a shorter club because I seem to be able to hit them straighter...

Grip it. Rip it. Don't think too much. That's a double edged sword for me... too few swing thoughts and my swing is a shambles. Too many and it's a shambles.

Try an experiment for me the next time you are out. Pick a target, step up to the ball, and say to yourself "I am going to hit the ball to that______." Then swing. Let me know how it goes.

 

[OldandStiff]

I think I spend more time over the ball than anyone I know. It takes me time to get lined up in a way that feels completely wrong still, but it's the only way to repeat it. I feel like you can run through as many things as you want while you're there, as long as you mostly clear them before you swing.