Tiger Woods on the Distance Debate

Tywithay

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If they really want to "even the playing field," they should taper the fairway grass. Keep it super fast in the 280-300 range for more rollout, then taper it out into the 320 and beyond with slightly taller grass (like 1/8") to slow the rollout for the bigger hitters. I still think it's stupid to penalize someone for being more talented, but I think that'd be the most effective way to go about it. Rolling back equipment is ridiculous because the big hitters will still have the same distance gap over the shorter guys.
 

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In all this uproar over distance and Bryson and everything else, I have yet to see anyone give a single reason that I find persuasive in favor of bifurcating or rolling anything back.

For some reason, it seems that athletes in every other sport are praised for using science, new training methods, advanced metrics, etc. to improve and maximize their performance. But somehow, when golfers do it, there is something wrong with the game and we need to entirely revamp the rules? My question is, why? Because Geoff Shackleford thinks that some old golf courses that 99% of the population has no chance of ever setting foot on need to be played the way they were designed at the turn of the last century? Or because Jack doesn't like that a lot of people don't consider him the greatest of all time any more? Or maybe because some, and I emphasize some, people would rather see pros hit 6 irons into greens than wedges on TV?

I really don't get it. What's wrong with the best in the world being way better than everyone else? Especially since regular golfers can put it in context more easily than other sports. I can't go try to make a 3-pointer at Madison Square Garden with an NBA player in my face or try to hit home runs in Dodgers Stadium against major league pitching. But I can go play Torrey Pines, or Bethpage, or Shadow Creek, etc. with the same equipment as the pros (mostly) from the same tees (sometimes). And isn't part of the draw saying, "how in the hell could he have possibly hit driver-wedge on this hole" or "I'd have to play out of my mind to break 80 and these guys shot 4 rounds in the 60s"?
I think it’s the “traditionalist” ideals that permeate throughout golf. Tiger and Rory got loads of pushback too just for working out. Whereas in other sports we love to see athletes who are bigger, stronger, faster, and even more skilled.

I’m not sure anything needs to be rolled back. But I do get bored with super low scores. It’s like watching regular season NBA or Big 12 football—no defense.
 

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The comparisons to other sports as basis for counterarguments are hilarious. Perhaps even more than the "so if you say this then you're also saying this" comparison.
 

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You would also hit a wall where certain gear fits one player better than another. It would be a mess. If there is a cookie cutter approach it would effect the field disproportionally giving some players a head start.
If the equipment didn't fit the player, they'd take that tournament off.:) Simple.

Like I said, it's a stupid idea. There would be too many hurt feelings to even think of doing this. It might be cool though. I'd enjoy seeing it... then, when the tournament's over sell all the equipment for charity. Or the players keep them for the next tournament that sponsor has.
 

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I think a lot of casual golf fans only see the 320+ yard drives that are highlighted on the broadcast and think that's how the pros hit every tee shot. The average drive on the PGA Tour when you look at all drives(black line below) is up from about 280 yards 15 years ago to about 286 yards now. Obviously many clubs other than drivers are used on the PGA Tour during a typical round of golf because using driver is often a risk not worth taking.

Also of note is the Korn Ferry guys that are struggling their best to make it to the PGA Tour are longer than the PGA Tour guys and have been for decades. Maybe it's not all about distance, lol.

I think it's fun to watch the long bombers carry a bunker at 320 yards and taking that away would diminish interest in the game.

Screen Shot 2020-10-21 at 11.51.59 AM.png
 

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The comparisons to other sports as basis for counterarguments are hilarious. Perhaps even more than the "so if you say this then you're also saying this" comparison.
As hilarious as the speed limit sign and driving a car? :ROFLMAO:

Im still trying to figure out the argument. You want limits, which there are. You want testing of those limits, which there are.
Outside of limiting every player playing the exact same thing, loft, length and lie, what are you asking for?

COR and now CT are not new. They have not really deviated much. Players got faster, stronger and better and clubs got a whole lot more forgiving. Now fitting is the norm and diving into getting exact launch windows means maximizing distance.

Im also trying to figure out how a distance average going up about 9 yards in a decade is all of the sudden a golf problem?
 
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golfunfiltered

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As hilarious as the speed limit sign and driving a car? :ROFLMAO:

Im still trying to figure out the argument. You want limits, which there are. You want testing of those limits, which there are.
Outside of limiting every player playing the exact same thing, loft, length and lie, what are you asking for?

COR and now CT are not new. They have not really deviated much. Players got faster, stronger and better and clubs got a whole lot more forgiving. Now fitting is the norm and diving into getting exact launch windows means maximizing distance.

Im also trying to figure out how a distance average going up about 9 yards in a decade is all of the sudden a golf problem?
I don't want limits. I would be in favor of a standard.
 

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I don't want limits. I would be in favor of a standard.
So lets say they set a standard (not limit) at 257.
What changes? Asking genuinely because you and I both know how CT works. So if every driver on tour is at 257, what changes?
 

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I think it’s the “traditionalist” ideals that permeate throughout golf. Tiger and Rory got loads of pushback too just for working out. Whereas in other sports we love to see athletes who are bigger, stronger, faster, and even more skilled.

I’m not sure anything needs to be rolled back. But I do get bored with super low scores. It’s like watching regular-season NBA or Big 12 football—no defense.
FYI, old man par is safe. Average winning scores have changed very little in the last 30 years. The same goes for the average of all rounds on the PGA Tour. It has only dropped from 71.02 to 70.74 since 2000. You'd think that the improved agronomy/course conditions would be responsible for a big chunk of that improved scoring.

Screen Shot 2020-10-21 at 12.14.30 PM.png
 

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I don't want limits. I would be in favor of a standard.
I honestly don't understand the difference between the two. Specifically how it relates to golf equipment. Care to explain what this actually means to you?
 

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Let’s make this as easy as we can make it. I believe this chart is from TrackMan

1F5D82BB-6728-470C-A726-05ACAED2BEED.jpeg

Any and all claims that we are playing the same game are absurd. The professionals are so good they create the illusion of playing the same game.

There is NO a justification for dialing back distance for regular amateur hackers. None. That group of players needs even more technology assistance.

IMO there is zero question we MUST bifurcate (if there are going to be limits), the only question is how and at what level of play.
 

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In all this uproar over distance and Bryson and everything else, I have yet to see anyone give a single reason that I find persuasive in favor of bifurcating or rolling anything back.

For some reason, it seems that athletes in every other sport are praised for using science, new training methods, advanced metrics, etc. to improve and maximize their performance. But somehow, when golfers do it, there is something wrong with the game and we need to entirely revamp the rules? My question is, why? Because Geoff Shackleford thinks that some old golf courses that 99% of the population has no chance of ever setting foot on need to be played the way they were designed at the turn of the last century? Or because Jack doesn't like that a lot of people don't consider him the greatest of all time any more? Or maybe because some, and I emphasize some, people would rather see pros hit 6 irons into greens than wedges on TV?

I really don't get it. What's wrong with the best in the world being way better than everyone else? Especially since regular golfers can put it in context more easily than other sports. I can't go try to make a 3-pointer at Madison Square Garden with an NBA player in my face or try to hit home runs in Dodgers Stadium against major league pitching. But I can go play Torrey Pines, or Bethpage, or Shadow Creek, etc. with the same equipment as the pros (mostly) from the same tees (sometimes). And isn't part of the draw saying, "how in the hell could he have possibly hit driver-wedge on this hole" or "I'd have to play out of my mind to break 80 and these guys shot 4 rounds in the 60s"?
you smart. i like what you say.
 

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Im going to write a book entitled

How to kill an industry in one swift rule.

You can start with a standard that all drivers must be the same. So make sure we stifle all innovation, kill all of those engineering jobs, etc.
This is done of course because less than .1% of golfers are hitting it 9 yards further on average than they were a decade ago.
We of course kill all fitters and retail because why ever replace what has to be identical to every other in play.

I seriously do not understand the argument here and I am trying to. I want to. Why is what happened 100 years ago in golf, different than 100 years ago in every other facet of life where changes are embraced.
 

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FYI, old man par is safe. Average winning scores have changed very little in the last 30 years. The same goes for the average of all rounds on the PGA Tour. It has only dropped from 71.02 to 70.74 since 2000. You'd think that the improved agronomy/course conditions would be responsible for a big chunk of that improved scoring.

View attachment 8970368
Huh, interesting. May just be a product of me watching more televised tournaments the last few years. I don’t love birdie fests, just seems to make each additional one less consequential.
 

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To be honest, I liked baseball better during the steroid era so I just don't see the need to change anything. Personally I'd love to see pro athletes jacked up on whatever can enhance their performance safely. I see no need to make changes to equipment, courses can be set up to challenge everyone fairly. Yes length is an advantage, but they can all chase it. If they are super accurate that could be an advantage too.
 

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I‘m wondering why there‘s always this distance debate. Looking at the European Tour shows a totally different picture. Of course, the best of the best are playing the PGA Tour. But if we have a look at the really challenging courses here in Europe, distance is only a very small part of the game. Considering Valderrama as a really tough course where players a struggling to regularly shoot below even par or just thinking back to the recent Scottish tournaments ... distance wouldn’t have helped you here so much I‘d argue.
 

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I don't want limits. I would be in favor of a standard.
What would that matter? Bryson is still going to outdrive the field. DJ is still going to outdrive the field. Rory is still going to outdrive the field. They will still have an advantage over everyone.

I'll even say that by creating a standard for equipment you're handicapping the lesser skilled players even more. Now not only do they have the disadvantage of being outdriven by the big guys but now since distance is rolled back they are hitting longer, and harder to control, clubs in to the green. In my eyes you're making a bigger gap in results among the field.
 

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I'm surprised this discussion continues, is there a distance problem in the game? nope.

The day when one player dominates and wins week after week, blowing away the field and making tough courses look too easy, then it should be discussed, but nothing we have seen from any player, including Bryson, indicates that will ever happen.
 

mjkladis

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Either go back to small steel heads and single material MB/CB irons or stop talking about it.

Equipment, fitting, instruction and fitness has changed golf for the better. Let them tear apart previous course records! It comes with the times!

You don’t see them going back in nascar or formula one because track records are being beaten.
 

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I honestly don't understand the difference between the two. Specifically how it relates to golf equipment. Care to explain what this actually means to you?
Sure. I'll try.

A limit offers tolerance ranges. It allows anything up to a certain point. A standard states what something needs to be exactly. This is a very distinct difference.

Can a standard be a limit? Technically, yes, as long as the tolerance is very small and tested repeatedly.
 

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Sure. I'll try.

A limit offers tolerance ranges. It allows anything up to a certain point. A standard states what something needs to be exactly. This is a very distinct difference.

Can a standard be a limit? Technically, yes, as long as the tolerance is very small and tested repeatedly.
You know as well as I that there has to be tolerance in everything. Even if something is standard, you cant realistically expect everything meeting the standard to be exactly at the standard.

I still think that in this example, the CT limit is the standard that has been set.

ASTM A36 steel has a minimum (a lower limit) yield strength of 36,000 psi, in addition to other strength and composition properties. Because there is a limit involved, this isn't a standard? It's in the acronym!
 

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You know as well as I that there has to be tolerance in everything. Even if something is standard, you cant realistically expect everything meeting the standard to be exactly at the standard.

I still think that in this example, the CT limit is the standard that has been set.

ASTM A36 steel has a minimum (a lower limit) yield strength of 36,000 psi, in addition to other strength and composition properties. Because there is a limit involved, this isn't a standard? It's in the acronym!
Fair points. And has been brought up in the past, if all OEMs are designing clubs to the absolute limit (sometimes, as in the case of TaylorMade, exceeding the CT limit and then adjusting it "back" to conforming), then perhaps the limit is the standard in this case.
 

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Fair points. And has been brought up in the past, if all OEMs are designing clubs to the absolute limit (sometimes, as in the case of TaylorMade, exceeding the CT limit and then adjusting it "back" to conforming), then perhaps the limit is the standard in this case.

 

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Bingo.
Im going to mandate that all NBA games should feature only set shots.
Just watch part of a WNBA game. Their technique is impeccable - I'm a big fan of double handed chest passes myself.
 

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I don't want limits. I would be in favor of a standard.
So they set the standard COR for drivers at .0830, which is currently the limit. Probably just about every driver on the market is at or very near to .0830 already, so what just changed other than calling it a "standard" instead of a "limit"? Semantics aren't going to affect how far the ball is traveling on the course.

I doubt very many companies are intentionally manufacturing drivers that don't go as far as their competitors. That wouldn't exactly be a strong marketing point for all the amateurs who want all the distance they can get. "Buy our driver, it's less hot and guaranteed to be 30 yards shorter than any other driver on the market!"
 

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