Titleist responds to the USGA's Distance Insights Report

[Scorp]

People weren't buying the non conforming clubs... they were playing what the pros played. They'll buy lesser equipment if it comes to that because it's what the pros play.

Toughen the courses. Leave the equipment alone. I'm being selfish in saying I don't want to lose what distance modern technology has helped me achieve.

 

[Parrot]

How so?

The balata balls would probably be expensive. The aggressive grooves in today's wedges would most probably tear into the soft covers and ruin a ball pretty quickly.

 

[MWard]

Agreed, but the fact still remains that the pros play a different game than the rest of us when it comes to the courses. So if they also have to play slightly different clubs it is not a big problem. Can you imagine if Major League Baseball played with aluminum bats? The average scores would go from 5-3 to 10-8.

That would be fun to watch though. Pitchers games are fun every once in a while, but people pay to see the homers. People go to tournaments to see what we can’t do: shoot under par, and hit the hell out of the ball.

I think a lot of the issues we’re having are more from a poor design standpoint and mentality than a distance issue. The longer you make it, the harder they’re going to swing. They only have one option. Give them something short, the player has options and second guesses. Now you have something confusing.

 

[tequila4kapp]

They certainly don't want a different ball for the masses which makes sense from a (their) marketing perspective.

See, I don't think it has to be that way. The bifurcated 'slow' ball could be something like a PV1p (p for pro). All the hackers that play the PV1 just keep on rolling with the ball they already love and they keep the tie in to Spieth and others by the fact the ball is substantially branded the same.

 

[Johan185]

What is wrong with bifurcation?

So we tee up at the local goat trail. I am using the latest bifurcated system of clubs. You are gaming your trusty SGI 2020 set.

You bet me by 11 strokes. One stroke better than the 10 I had given you based on our Handicaps.

You ask me to pay up. I just noticed that I forgot my wallet in my car.

As I roll out of the parking lot, who is right?

Playing basketball with an 8 foot rim is fun.

 

[LICC]

That would be fun to watch though. Pitchers games are fun every once in a while, but people pay to see the homers. People go to tournaments to see what we can’t do: shoot under par, and hit the hell out of the ball.

I think a lot of the issues we’re having are more from a poor design standpoint and mentality than a distance issue. The longer you make it, the harder they’re going to swing. They only have one option. Give them something short, the player has options and second guesses. Now you have something confusing.

It would be terrible for baseball. Might as well just turn it into softball then. As for golf, the pro game from roughly the 1950s to the 1990s changed very little and incrementally. The game is very different now and it happened in just a few years. Guys regularly cranking out 320+ yard drives and playing just about every par 4 with a wedge in is not as compelling to watch as things used to be.

 

[MWard]

It would be terrible for baseball. Might as well just turn it into softball then. As for golf, the pro game from roughly the 1950s to the 1990s changed very little and incrementally. The game is very different now and it happened in just a few years. Guys regularly cranking out 320+ yard drives and playing just about every par 4 with a wedge in is not as compelling to watch as things used to be.

They might be going driver wedge, but are they scoring any lower? Rory can absolutely pound driver, but you put a wedge and putter in his hand and he’s pretty awful compared to what he does with a driver.

 

[tequila4kapp]

It would be terrible for baseball. Might as well just turn it into softball then.

Fun fact: the sport with the fastest growing viewership on ESPN is women's college softball. The quote was something like "It is like baseball except it is faster, more action and games don't take as long."

 

[LICC]

They might be going driver wedge, but are they scoring any lower? Rory can absolutely pound driver, but you put a wedge and putter in his hand and he’s pretty awful compared to what he does with a driver.

Of course they are scoring lower. And the courses have been lengthened substantially.

 

[MWard]

Of course they are scoring lower. And the courses have been lengthened substantially.

Rory took the scoring title last year with a 69.057.

DJ in 18 with 69.698

TW in 2000 was 67.794
TW in 01 was 68.808

They’re actually not scoring really any lower. Scott shot -10 at Riviera, and I’m pretty sure Hogan won there with a similar score ??‍

edit: Hogan won with -9 as his lowest score.

AP won at -15 one year...

 

[Snickerdog]

I haven't gotten to read the whole article yet, but I don't see any reason to roll back the equipment. When they show on TV how the ball rolls out 51 yards, that is the problem, change the course.

 

[OldandStiff]

Agreed, but the fact still remains that the pros play a different game than the rest of us when it comes to the courses. So if they also have to play slightly different clubs it is not a big problem. Can you imagine if Major League Baseball played with aluminum bats? The average scores would go from 5-3 to 10-8.

And people would get hurt. As a baseball guy that's the one thing that makes me not 100% hate the bifurcation idea. There are a lot of things that drive the different equipment between levels of play in baseball. The main one for aluminum bats not being allowed is/was danger. The first time I ever heard 'exit velocity' was in college 20 years ago talking about the bats. Now they track it as a stat, and with the strength and athletic ability of current players it's already ridiculously high with wood. With aluminum bats it would be absurd. People always talk about the bats, but it's the balls too. I was a pitcher and the leather and the stitching on the balls is completely different between levels. Assuming it still is. Seams get flatter as you rise and the tack is different. They make different balls for different levels and it definitely makes things harder in ways. That's just the way it is though, so no one really worries about it all that much. You adapt, or you don't, and the ones that can and do are the better players.

The big difference is that in baseball it's partly driven by encouraging youth participation and adjusting to actual growing bodies. A lot more adult amateurs play golf than baseball. Making it easier and more fun for kids (size of fields obviously shrinks in youth games too), and then making it harder as they get older, better, and stronger. And it seems to work fine for MLB all the way up to the majors (don't get me started on if collegiate should still be using aluminum). I'd prefer they actually water fairways and make the rough more penalizing before changing equipment in golf, but the baseball thing does make me think.


Love Titliest coming out strong on this btw. That's a very well worded statement.

 

[golfunfiltered]

I just wish anyone, including brands, would pick a lane in their argument and stay there.

If your stance is that this only impacts the best players in the world, then build your argument around that group. Don't bounce back and forth between amateurs and professionals, using one to "justify" your stance on the other. The USGA hasn't decided anything yet, so to immediately jump to the conclusion that all amateurs will be ruined is inappropriate at this time.

 

[LICC]

Rory took the scoring title last year with a 69.057.

DJ in 18 with 69.698

TW in 2000 was 67.794
TW in 01 was 68.808

They’re actually not scoring really any lower. Scott shot -10 at Riviera, and I’m pretty sure Hogan won there with a similar score ??‍

edit: Hogan won with -9 as his lowest score.

AP won at -15 one year...

Hogan won with a -8, and the three players tied for 10th were at +3. And the course was over 300 yards shorter then.
This year, Scott was -11 (and Adam Scott is not Ben Hogan, a possible GOAT), and the players tied for 10th finished at -7.

They are scoring lower on longer courses.

 

[OldandStiff]

Hogan won with a -8, and the three players tied for 10th were at +3. And the course was over 300 yards shorter then.
This year, Scott was -11 (and Adam Scott is not Ben Hogan, a possible GOAT), and the players tied for 10th finished at -7.

They are scoring lower on longer courses.

The floor rising doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem at the top. Just saying.

 

[zbeekner4]

Im surprised that no one has released a report on carry distances instead of total distance. I know its much harder to generate since youd basically need a launch monitor on every driver hole but its more revealing in finding out the truth.

 

[MWard]

Im surprised that no one has released a report on carry distances instead of total distance. I know its much harder to generate since youd basically need a launch monitor on every driver hole but its more revealing in finding out the truth.

They have one sorta kinda on pgatour.com, 6 guys carry it over 300yds.

 

[MWard]

Hogan won with a -8, and the three players tied for 10th were at +3. And the course was over 300 yards shorter then.
This year, Scott was -11 (and Adam Scott is not Ben Hogan, a possible GOAT), and the players tied for 10th finished at -7.

They are scoring lower on longer courses.

Adam Scott isn't Ben Hogan, no. But my point is, it's 300 yards longer, when everyone is saying oh you need 8k long courses to challenge these guys. No, you just need better layouts and course setup to do it. Don't give them 500yd par 4's. They're just going to take driver and smash it as hard as they can, because they have to. Not exactly forcing them to hit it shorter, that's for sure.

 

[zbeekner4]

They have one sorta kinda on pgatour.com, 6 guys carry it over 300yds.

6....6 guys carry it 300+?!?! ROLL BACK THE GOLF BALL!! ...the USGA (Probably)

 

[MWard]

6....6 guys carry it 300+?!?! ROLL BACK THE GOLF BALL!! ...the USGA (Probably)

Yeah. Six. A whole lot of guys are in the 300yd off the tee area, but they're certainly not flying it that far. Adam Scott carries it roughly 282 as of 2019 (I use the prior year because it's the full season vs a handful of rounds and because that actually gives me the stats haha) yet is 299.3 off the tee. Oh, and because I just found this stat category and that's kinda neat... His average spin rate? 3,404.2. He's first in that category. Spinny tee shot for control, it seems. 19 yards of run out on a higher spinning tee shot. God, I wish.

 

[LICC]

Adam Scott isn't Ben Hogan, no. But my point is, it's 300 yards longer, when everyone is saying oh you need 8k long courses to challenge these guys. No, you just need better layouts and course setup to do it. Don't give them 500yd par 4's. They're just going to take driver and smash it as hard as they can, because they have to. Not exactly forcing them to hit it shorter, that's for sure.

Who wants to see these guys hitting irons off the tees because of tricked up course setups?

 

[fupresti]

Bifurcation is already happening. Look at all the PGA pros playing cavity back irons and all of the Internet golfers playing blades....

 

[fupresti]

Who wants to see these guys hitting irons off the tees because of tricked up course setups?

I do.

 

[93civiccpe]

I'm a big fan of Titleist taking this stand and I hope others in the industry do as well

 

[MWard]

Who wants to see these guys hitting irons off the tees because of tricked up course setups?

Hit what gets you in play. A lot more get used off the tee than you think