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Today's Rant - What Would You Do?

Junkyard

Junkyard

Will Travel for Golf
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In my professional life I commission HVAC equipment, and provide field support and troubleshooting assistance for our customers.

One of our manufacturers recently redesigned their product line to combine two versions into a single chassis. The old offering (type A) had 3 connections, and the other (type B) had 2. With the redesign, they all come with 3 connections. If you are going to install as a type A, you connect all 3. If you are going type B, you use the two outside connections and cap the middle connector.

I went to site today to start up four of these units, only to discover that the installer didn't use the correct combination of connections for type B. The answer/excuse when I point this out always seems to be the same: "I just matched up the pipe sizes":facepalm:

They didn't read the instructions. They didn't call and ask how to do it. They just went ahead and took a guess. Nothing frustrates me more than showing up to a site where a guy has just finished an installation, only to have to tell him it's wrong (and he has to tear it apart and redo it)

As a company we have implemented checklists that the installer needs to fill out and return to us, one of the questions is "is everything connected per the manufacturer's instructions?" We have also tried to mandate that we perform a mid-installation "inspection" in an effort to catch mistakes such as this. If I walked into an installation that is only partly completed and pointed out that something needed to be changed it wouldn't be a big deal. Once everything is finished, however, it's major. Golf analogy: imagine walking into a pro's shop before he assembled your custom irons and noticing that the tube of epoxy on his workbench is the wrong type. Easy fix at this point right?:cool: Flip side: going in to pick up your completed irons only to notice the partial tube of incorrect epoxy sitting on the bench.:eek: Which conversation would you rather have?

I'm not sure this is a single rant: why don't people who are unfamiliar with a product read instructions? Why don't they ask the question first? Why is it always the manufacturer's fault when they've gone ahead and guessed only to get it wrong? Why do they always seem to guess incorrectly?

If you did this type of thing for a living, and I gave you a unit with 3 connections but you only had to use 2, where would you start?
 
Having had to do enough things over in my DIY life so far, I would start with the instructions. But most people won't. Some of their reasonings:
  1. They "have done it before," so "they know what they're doing."
  2. Time is money, and they are being paid to connect pipes, not read poorly written manuals or check boxes.
  3. It's not like anyone is going to die or anything if the connections are wrong.
  4. It can always be redone.
  5. This is why we all see so many BFOTO warnings on equipment, but . . .
As a former technology wunderkind liked to say (before his conviction and imprisonment), "Just when you make something idiotproof, they build a better idiot."
 
The equipment we sell & service sometimes gets installed by others or less knowledgeable off this type of equipment. When we go do start ups, it’s a running list of what needs to be corrected. We do the same with a checklist before we go start it but it’s always something. No check valves, no drains piped, no water, electric not landed just about anything. “But what do you mean it’s not ready? We need to get a draw on the contract. Can’t you help us out this one time?”


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I just matched up the pipe sizes, what is this in reference to?
 
I run into this all of the time. The installers of the equipment usually don’t have the same mindset as a service technician, and the service tech usually is cleaning up the mess of an install. It is frustrating but a pervasive issue across the HVAC industry. The head engineer of the Project division is very detail oriented and lays out all pertinent tech info but they skim it and make assumptions. Very frustrating, but that is coming from the service side so I know I am biased.
 
LOL, as someone who has worked in the industrial construction and engineering business you have no idea how common this is. Things even as simple as lift plans, "why do you thing they put padeyes (liftpoints) at 4 locations? do you thing you should use all, some, or none of them? or open the OEM documentation to find the lift plan guidance?"

We are all susceptible to schedule pressures and difficult supervisors that just want it done and fast, but some of us are better at using our judgement when to look for more information vs just wing it.
 
Ive seen this type of thing WAY too often over my life and still do. Simple... no accountability, people being lazy, and no pride in their craft.
 
Have you communicated with the manufacturer to see about... sorry.. you're ranting and not asking for a solution... umm. Hmm. It rests upon the installer for no following the directions I think. Is there something that can be changed in the installation documents?

Have you communicated with the manufacturer about the installation issues?

I heard about a golf course superintendent that uses Toro equipment. And noticed on a new piece of equipment that Toro changed something from how it was before on previous versions. That change made things unreliable... he told his Toro sales rep. Things were changed back after more complaints by other customers.

Maybe your manufacturer needs to hear feedback on their change and how it's causing issues?
 
I headed up a company that manufactured custom industrial HVAC units, making wall-mounts from 12-tons to over 100-tons. I found out that my guys had installed the evaporator coils backwards on over 50 12.5-ton units for one customer...

In the field, we always had installers that failed to read directions. Amazingly, they would also fail to change a $3 filter in the west Texas oil fields, and these machines were a minimum of $30K each.

For your application, you could put 3 "A" stickers on the 3 connections and 2 "B" stickers on the correct connections for that configuration.
 
As a guy who installs a ton of equipment and systems that are designed by others I can see the frustration on both sides.

The installer is under the gun from the Project Supervisor and his own boss to get things done and working very quickly. Half the time the jobs are bid and priced before the details of the equipment to be used are even hammered out and approved. So even an experienced installer will sometimes make the wrong assumptions in this environment.

Equipment manufacturers are always changing or "streamlining" their products to be more profitable for them. Fewer skews with additional applications sort of thing. Sometimes they come with amazing diagrams and instructions that make everything mistake-proof, but not always. My biggest pet peeve is when a piece of equipment needs 40 other specific parts to complete the installation - but they aren't included. I'll do everything in my power to not buy their product or parts in this instance and make it work some other way.

I've made a habit of reaching out to the Product Commissioner part ways through an install - just to save me from myself sometimes. Half the time they are happy to come out and confirm they are happy with everything, and the other half are annoyed that I am preventing them from golfing all day and act like I have no business requesting anything from them.

At the end of the day though, the installer is the one who gets crapped on. It's ultimately his mistake (assuming the Information was readily available) and he needs to re do his work, he is the one losing money, and he is the one getting yelled at from all sides. I get that it sucks for you being the bearer of bad news, but he's having a worse day than you.
 
As a home construction supt, my job was to ensure construction was done per existing building codes, and per the blue prints supplied by others.

On many occassions I would find mistakes made by subcontractors, and even mistakes made by the PEs on their prints. I even explained a few times why a building inspectors interpretations of a building code was wrong. (I didn't win many of those discussions)

PEs were a little more understanding.

In almost every instance where I found a subcontractor's mistake, the reply was always "I've been doing it this way for 20 years. Why is it wrong now?" My retort was always "Then you been doing it wrong for 20 years. Did you not read your prints"?

People don't readily read instructions. That is just human nature. A lot who do read them, don't understand them. Others decide to take short cuts.
 
In the IT world, I run into this all the time. They think they know what they are doing, but really, they only know just enough to be dangerous.
 
Reframmellator said:
As a former technology wunderkind liked to say (before his conviction and imprisonment), "Just when you make something idiotproof, they build a better idiot."
Click to expand...

My main technical support contact at the manufacturer actually called me today to see how I was doing since we hadn't talked in some time. When I told him what had happened that was his exact statement :)
 
Matthew said:
The equipment we sell & service sometimes gets installed by others or less knowledgeable off this type of equipment. When we go do start ups, it’s a running list of what needs to be corrected. We do the same with a checklist before we go start it but it’s always something. No check valves, no drains piped, no water, electric not landed just about anything. “But what do you mean it’s not ready? We need to get a draw on the contract. Can’t you help us out this one time?”
Click to expand...

When it comes to this particular brand of equipment (and the errors that come with) I always come back to the fact that we don't get to choose who we sell the equipment to. With the bidding process, generally speaking the lowest price wins. We can recommend that the successful bidder take a basic installation course, however in the interest of making the sale we can't mandate it.

The worst part is, usually the farther I have to drive to get to the site the more likely I am to pitch in and help the guy clean up the last few outstanding items so that I can get my part done the same day when what I should really do is get back in my truck and leave. I know my boss would prefer it, but it's not in my nature.
 
Jmk202 said:
LOL, as someone who has worked in the industrial construction and engineering business you have no idea how common this is. Things even as simple as lift plans, "why do you thing they put padeyes (liftpoints) at 4 locations? do you thing you should use all, some, or none of them? or open the OEM documentation to find the lift plan guidance?"
Click to expand...

I've actually witnessed the aftermath when they failed to try and lift a piece of equipment without following the rigging requirements and as you know, it ain't pretty.
 
Scorpion12 said:
Have you communicated with the manufacturer to see about... sorry.. you're ranting and not asking for a solution... umm. Hmm. It rests upon the installer for no following the directions I think. Is there something that can be changed in the installation documents?

Have you communicated with the manufacturer about the installation issues?

I heard about a golf course superintendent that uses Toro equipment. And noticed on a new piece of equipment that Toro changed something from how it was before on previous versions. That change made things unreliable... he told his Toro sales rep. Things were changed back after more complaints by other customers.

Maybe your manufacturer needs to hear feedback on their change and how it's causing issues?
Click to expand...

I actually talked to them today about this site, and we both agreed that while the change to a single sku prevents the wrong unit from being shipped, there is certainly an increase in mistakes on the installer's part. I am going to review our literature and see if I can come up with some way of hopefully eliminating this particular issue. Now that I think about it, putting a simple yellow tag on the 3 connection points that said "for type B use pipes 1 and 3" or something like that. Putting it right in front of the installer might make it less likely to be ignored?
 
Drumdog said:
In the IT world, I run into this all the time. They think they know what they are doing, but really, they only know just enough to be dangerous.
Click to expand...
So true.
 
Junkyard said:
When it comes to this particular brand of equipment (and the errors that come with) I always come back to the fact that we don't get to choose who we sell the equipment to. With the bidding process, generally speaking the lowest price wins. We can recommend that the successful bidder take a basic installation course, however in the interest of making the sale we can't mandate it.

The worst part is, usually the farther I have to drive to get to the site the more likely I am to pitch in and help the guy clean up the last few outstanding items so that I can get my part done the same day when what I should really do is get back in my truck and leave. I know my boss would prefer it, but it's not in my nature.
Click to expand...

Correct on who buys it but as a sales guy, that is fairly technical, I can choose who I quote. Not all jobs are worth having much less buying. It’s a big day when you realize that & commit to it. Sure, there’s a chance you miss some but developing partners rather than buyers pays off.
The further my guys drive, the more I’m looking for change orders, going all around Hells half acre ain’t cheap.


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Unfortunately as a building engineer I see equipment installed improperly all the time. Usually it’s because someone else. Lots of finger pointing going on. Recently I had one blame the manufacturer. I happened to have worked for said manufacturer. The mechanical company said the manufacturer installed it that way. Only the manufacturer doesn’t do installs. Never has. I’ve been fighting with this company for 18 months. Bottom line at this point, I’ll end up fixing it myself.
 
I do software development and implementation. Not the same but there are parallels. Gotta be honest, my reaction is this is a bad design that invites mistakes. Great designs build in innate clues or physical limitations that negate the need for instructions. Having the 2nd piece used sometimes but not others is not optimal. How about putting a removal tab (?) on the 2nd piece that says “only remove for use on Type B...”
 
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Junkyard said:
I've actually witnessed the aftermath when they failed to try and lift a piece of equipment without following the rigging requirements and as you know, it ain't pretty.
Click to expand...
:ROFLMAO: yeah its bad. I used to lead the engineering dept at a LARGE fabrication facility and one of my favorites when i'd catch them welding additional lift points on to equipment/items. "why did you do that? did you see the ones already there? did you go to the equipment data book? did you ask anyone?" ughhhhh..
 
Junkyard said:
I actually talked to them today about this site, and we both agreed that while the change to a single sku prevents the wrong unit from being shipped, there is certainly an increase in mistakes on the installer's part. I am going to review our literature and see if I can come up with some way of hopefully eliminating this particular issue. Now that I think about it, putting a simple yellow tag on the 3 connection points that said "for type B use pipes 1 and 3" or something like that. Putting it right in front of the installer might make it less likely to be ignored?
Click to expand...
I want to say put a tag, nice and BIG on the center... and a cap torqued on so tight it has to be cut off... but I can see the installer just cutting off the cap and ignoring the tag.
 
Junkyard said:
I actually talked to them today about this site, and we both agreed that while the change to a single sku prevents the wrong unit from being shipped, there is certainly an increase in mistakes on the installer's part. I am going to review our literature and see if I can come up with some way of hopefully eliminating this particular issue. Now that I think about it, putting a simple yellow tag on the 3 connection points that said "for type B use pipes 1 and 3" or something like that. Putting it right in front of the installer might make it less likely to be ignored?
Click to expand...
This is good. It requires the operator to do something affirmative to install the equipment (rather than passively expecting them to read instructions) and the action they have to perform includes the directions.
 
What, read instructions? That is not manly ;)

My wife yells at me when we are doing things that I don't read the instructions carefully enough. I got this honey. :LOL:
 
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