Trying to Break 100

The Kiz video is great, but even better yet -


Not a snark response in any way, but, do you think high cappers have enough control to do PMs "hinge and hold" versus the KK technique? I'm just mentally pondering the pros vs. cons of each style.
 
Boring, it can be, no doubt. Maybe make it harder on yourself by picking smaller, more difficult targets. Do a reducing game where you keep making the landing area smaller. You can get a lot of good sharpening down in 20-30 minutes if you concentrate. Have any good golfing friends near you? Meet at the chipping area and play a $10 closest to the pin game, that will focus you and keep it from being boring.

A humorous anecdote: one time, while playing with my brother, we had chips from about 1 foot away from each other. He said "Closest to the pin for $10?". I, being full of hubris, said sure, and promptly skulled my shot over the green. In a fit of rage, I reached down, grabbed his ball and threw it into a bunker about 20 feet away. I think I still owe him the money.

Great recommendation, thanks!
 
The Kiz video is great, but even better yet -


I mentioned this before in this thread...but two years ago...when I was able to get under and stay under 100...it was due to Mickelson short game tips as well as Dave Stockton's book on scoring....invaluable.
 
Not a snark response in any way, but, do you think high cappers have enough control to do PMs "hinge and hold" versus the KK technique? I'm just mentally pondering the pros vs. cons of each style.
Best takeaway I can remember from Phil is to be aggressive. It may be from this video, I'm not sure. But he talks about not taking the club back too far, short backswing, then aggressive swing. That was my takeaway from him that really helped...I think many (myself included) have a tendency to bail on the aggressive part...afraid they're going to hit the ball a mile with their lob wedge. Short backswing but you HAVE to attack the ball. the loft and short backswing will ensure you do NOT send the ball a mile....almost any time I'm struggling with chipping...it's because I'm softening my attack.
 
Not a snark response in any way, but, do you think high cappers have enough control to do PMs "hinge and hold" versus the KK technique? I'm just mentally pondering the pros vs. cons of each style.
I'm a 17 handicap (ranging randomly from 17-18) and have maybe average eye/hand coordination. The hinge and hold has been a godsend for my short game, it's far better than it's ever been before. It's basically the same thing Kiz is teaching, except that you're holding that slight wrist angle. You're still rotating the whole upper body and not flipping your hands, letting the club stay in sync with your chest turn. Once you practice it a little bit and get confident enough that you're not decelerating on your shots, it's a great method.
 
Boring, it can be, no doubt. Maybe make it harder on yourself by picking smaller, more difficult targets. Do a reducing game where you keep making the landing area smaller. You can get a lot of good sharpening down in 20-30 minutes if you concentrate. Have any good golfing friends near you? Meet at the chipping area and play a $10 closest to the pin game, that will focus you and keep it from being boring.

A humorous anecdote: one time, while playing with my brother, we had chips from about 1 foot away from each other. He said "Closest to the pin for $10?". I, being full of hubris, said sure, and promptly skulled my shot over the green. In a fit of rage, I reached down, grabbed his ball and threw it into a bunker about 20 feet away. I think I still owe him the money.

I play a game I call 18 when I'm chipping. I toss out 9 balls and chip them on, ideally close to the hole or pin(I know some chipping green don't have holes, just flags stuck in the ground) and then try to putt the ball into the hole (or to hit the pin, again, if there is not a hole). So pick a hole, chip at it, putt at it. Your goal is to score 18 strokes - one chip and one putt for each ball is the thought. When I was working the short game a lot....I kept a record on my phone with the notes app...I'd put the date and then play however many rounds of 18, keeping the score for each round and then the average score for the day. And I could compare, say, 10 different days of practice to hopefully see that average score improve each time.
 
A 92 is great! (Especially with a blow up hole.)
I think every golfer in the world has had the "It seemed like a good plan at the time." moment.
I did on Sunday, sadly.
Learn the lesson, play smarter next time. All good.

Yeah, sometimes the breakdown hole is caused by lack of execution. Sometimes its a bad decision. That one was a definitely a bad decision. I was feeling so confident with my driver I thought it would work out. I think maybe the over confidence made me get lazy on the swing. I have to keep my focus on every swing. Not easy to do.
 
The Kiz video is great, but even better yet -



That looks interesting. I don't think I hinge my wrists on the backswing. I wonder if that is the reason why I'm so inconsistent. The Kisner video I believe put my in the right direction. The ball checks up much better with that method. But my contact is still a work in progress. Maybe this one can be the one to get me the ball striking consistency I've been lacking for so long. I want to go out and try it now, but its like 104 degrees out at the moment. I gotta go out tomorrow morning and give it try. I hope I don't forget the key points when I do.

A couple years ago I was constantly watching videos. Reading golf books. Trying every tip I could find. My typical scores were in the 100 to 110 range. My son in law told me to forget all the videos and books. All that does is muddle things up and I can never settle in with something consistent. So I didn't golf for two months. I just went to the range and figured some things out for myself.

Now I'm still not a good golfer but I am better than I was. I almost always break 100. Sometimes I flirt with the low 90's. And my driver is the most consistent club in my bag. If an instructor saw my driver grip the first thing he'd probably want to do is change it. But it works for me. Been working for over a year since I started using that grip. Its pretty much a baseball grip and swing. Heck, when I take my practice swings it looks like I'm trying to hit a waist high fast ball. With the irons its closer to the standard golf grip.
 
Boring, it can be, no doubt. Maybe make it harder on yourself by picking smaller, more difficult targets. Do a reducing game where you keep making the landing area smaller. You can get a lot of good sharpening down in 20-30 minutes if you concentrate. Have any good golfing friends near you? Meet at the chipping area and play a $10 closest to the pin game, that will focus you and keep it from being boring.

A humorous anecdote: one time, while playing with my brother, we had chips from about 1 foot away from each other. He said "Closest to the pin for $10?". I, being full of hubris, said sure, and promptly skulled my shot over the green. In a fit of rage, I reached down, grabbed his ball and threw it into a bunker about 20 feet away. I think I still owe him the money.

This is something different from your story. But its so funny I have to share it. Many years ago I was golfing with some co-workers. One guy in particular I just could not stand. One of those co-workers who always disagreed with people. He was also one of those "been there, done that and done it better than you" guys. I'm sure you know the type. Every work place has one of those.

He was having a tough time on one hole. He was about 20 yards off the green to the right hitting his 4th on a par 4. We playing ready golf and on the green with the flag out. He asked me to put the flag in the hole because it was elevated and he couldn't see it. As I was holding the flag he hit a beautiful chip about a foot and a half from the flag. Easy bogey. Except the hole was like 25 feet to the other side. We all couldn't stop laughing. And he couldn't stop cussing me. :ROFLMAO:
 
Not a snark response in any way, but, do you think high cappers have enough control to do PMs "hinge and hold" versus the KK technique? I'm just mentally pondering the pros vs. cons of each style.

I'm hoping I can use both. The KK technique I feel is good. The ball checks up better with it. But I'm still having trouble with consistent contact. Maybe the hinge and hold can help?
 
I'm hoping I can use both. The KK technique I feel is good. The ball checks up better with it. But I'm still having trouble with consistent contact. Maybe the hinge and hold can help?
One way to find out - give it a try. I started using Kiz's method after I saw his video and it was an immediate help to my short game. Then I saw the Phil video and figured I'd give it a try. It allows me to use the bounce on the sole of the wedge much more consistently, and now I almost never chunk a chip. I still get the occasional blade when I get too eager and pull my head up too soon, but a lot less often than I used to. I can walk up to just about any chip/pitch around the green feeling confident that I can at the very least get it on the green and have my next shot be a putt, and it's been saving me a few strokes every round. Like I said, the mechanics are very similar to what Kiz teaches, the only real difference is that it lets you deliver the bounce more consistently. Phil does a lot of other magical short game stuff that's way above my pay grade, but the hinge and hold is a basic move that's easy to learn and use.

As an aside, I replaced my previous 58° wedge with a 58° Callaway PM Grind, and that club is like a freaking magic wand for me. It's my favorite club in the bag right now, I almost want to take it to bed with me at night and sing sweet love songs to it. :LOL:
 
One way to find out - give it a try. I started using Kiz's method after I saw his video and it was an immediate help to my short game. Then I saw the Phil video and figured I'd give it a try. It allows me to use the bounce on the sole of the wedge much more consistently, and now I almost never chunk a chip. I still get the occasional blade when I get too eager and pull my head up too soon, but a lot less often than I used to. I can walk up to just about any chip/pitch around the green feeling confident that I can at the very least get it on the green and have my next shot be a putt, and it's been saving me a few strokes every round. Like I said, the mechanics are very similar to what Kiz teaches, the only real difference is that it lets you deliver the bounce more consistently. Phil does a lot of other magical short game stuff that's way above my pay grade, but the hinge and hold is a basic move that's easy to learn and use.

As an aside, I replaced my previous 58° wedge with a 58° Callaway PM Grind, and that club is like a freaking magic wand for me. It's my favorite club in the bag right now, I almost want to take it to bed with me at night and sing sweet love songs to it. :LOL:
Toss on some Barry White, always works.
 
One way to find out - give it a try. I started using Kiz's method after I saw his video and it was an immediate help to my short game. Then I saw the Phil video and figured I'd give it a try. It allows me to use the bounce on the sole of the wedge much more consistently, and now I almost never chunk a chip. I still get the occasional blade when I get too eager and pull my head up too soon, but a lot less often than I used to. I can walk up to just about any chip/pitch around the green feeling confident that I can at the very least get it on the green and have my next shot be a putt, and it's been saving me a few strokes every round. Like I said, the mechanics are very similar to what Kiz teaches, the only real difference is that it lets you deliver the bounce more consistently. Phil does a lot of other magical short game stuff that's way above my pay grade, but the hinge and hold is a basic move that's easy to learn and use.

As an aside, I replaced my previous 58° wedge with a 58° Callaway PM Grind, and that club is like a freaking magic wand for me. It's my favorite club in the bag right now, I almost want to take it to bed with me at night and sing sweet love songs to it. :LOL:

I use a 58 degree too. Its a Vokey. Been using it for a couple years. My most comfortable wedge to hit. Most people use 56 or 60 degree wedges. I decided to go in between since I had trouble with too much roll on the 56 and not enough distance on the 60. I do use a 64 for bunker shots. I tried the open face, open stance method. Too hard for me. With the 64 I just stand straight, keep the loft straight, swing down and up and the ball always comes out safely. I'm not good enough to be in one putt range too often but right now I just don't wanna be in trouble after hitting the ball.
 
Ok, so I have to share this. When I saw the Kisner video I tried it. Seemed pretty good in practice. Used it on the course. A couple times it was good. A couple times it wasn't. A work in progress but I can see the benefits once you get it down.

This morning I decided to go to a park a couple blocks from me with my ball shagger, net and a couple chipping wedges. There's no one there that time of day. And there's enough room to hit over 100 yards. I use 30 balls at a time and hit 4 rounds with those 30. I have the net 30 yards from where I'm hitting. 4 rounds of 30 is all I can do. For some reason chipping practice hurts my back more than the full swing. Must be that slight bend.

The first 30 I used the Kisner method. Some were good. Some were not. Again, a work in progress. The ball flight doesn't seem as high but it has more back spin than I used to have.

The next 30 I used the Mickleson method of hinge and hold. After skulling the second ball 20 yards past, pretty much everything else was clean contact save for one near the end that I chunked only 15 yards.

So I went with the hinge and hold method for the next set of 30. One landed in the net. Another hit the net. As far was where they landed, (which is what is important because the grass field has crazy bounces) I was very happy. At least 20 of them were ten feet or less from the net. I went with one more round of 30 with the 64 degree and moved the net in to 20 yards. There were no chunks or skulls. At first they were all a little short. So I went further back on my back swing and the rest were landing with a few feet of the net with very little bounce. They pretty much died right there.

Based on that, the hinge and hold method is definitely easier for me. As soon as I dialed in on how far back to go, everything was clean and coming down nicely. Now the park grass is a little thick. So I just have to go to the course and practice on the shorter grass to see if it still works for me.
 
I played a work league make up round today and shot 44. This is 5 rounds in a row of 45 or better. I'm officially playing the best golf of my life. Please note the course is easy at 68.2 rating/117 slope.

I described previously that I went from a ST190 that I couldn't keep on the planet to an M3 440 driver that I've had good success with so far. I was absolutely bombing the M3 today by my standards.

I play the same course basically every week so I have an idea of normal distances. Also, I know the ground is hard and good roll out is possible now.

Hole #2 479 yard par 5 I rip one down the middle get a nice hill assisted bounce and I laser the flag at 215.
Hole #6 310 yard par 4 I was coming off a bad hole at #5 and hit it really solid, I laser the flag at 59.
Hole #9 370 yard par 4 I hit it well but to the right, this hole is also down hill if you hit it far enough. I laser the flag at 101.

Holy. Crap. All of those holes are straight so there's no dog leg effect, etc... I also hit 6/7 fairways! Normally on #6 I have about 110 left, this was way up from that. Same thing on #9. Normally I end up about 150 away after a good hit and again this one was way down there. #2 and #6 the drive is north. #9 is south so I don't think this is just wind effect either.

I don't know what has happened. I know I've been hitting the exercise bike hard and have my lower body in much better shape. I also know this driver tends to go straight for me where the other one would fade. The shaft also feels better to me.

Put it all together and I'm driving like I didn't think was possible for me.

Dave
 
I played a work league make up round today and shot 44. This is 5 rounds in a row of 45 or better. I'm officially playing the best golf of my life. Please note the course is easy at 68.2 rating/117 slope.

I described previously that I went from a ST190 that I couldn't keep on the planet to an M3 440 driver that I've had good success with so far. I was absolutely bombing the M3 today by my standards.

I play the same course basically every week so I have an idea of normal distances. Also, I know the ground is hard and good roll out is possible now.

Hole #2 479 yard par 5 I rip one down the middle get a nice hill assisted bounce and I laser the flag at 215.
Hole #6 310 yard par 4 I was coming off a bad hole at #5 and hit it really solid, I laser the flag at 59.
Hole #9 370 yard par 4 I hit it well but to the right, this hole is also down hill if you hit it far enough. I laser the flag at 101.

Holy. Crap. All of those holes are straight so there's no dog leg effect, etc... I also hit 6/7 fairways! Normally on #6 I have about 110 left, this was way up from that. Same thing on #9. Normally I end up about 150 away after a good hit and again this one was way down there. #2 and #6 the drive is north. #9 is south so I don't think this is just wind effect either.

I don't know what has happened. I know I've been hitting the exercise bike hard and have my lower body in much better shape. I also know this driver tends to go straight for me where the other one would fade. The shaft also feels better to me.

Put it all together and I'm driving like I didn't think was possible for me.

Dave
Well, like I tell my brother, you found a club that work, don't you dare stop using it to chase something else.
 
I haven't been around as much this week - how is everyone doing? Breaking 80??? :)

I have just been busy with work and with house projects and thought I'd take a step back from practice this week a bit after grinding hard....been stretching and working on my aches and pains. And looks like I'm playing with a buddy tomorrow - hopefully with the mental hiccups and swing breakdown in my rearview.... o_O
 
Relative to my play, yes, yes it was.

I am a tragically poor golfer.

Not true. I think you're probably more like an average golfer. There's more good golf in there, we just gotta get it out (or drown it in alcohol, your choice).
 
Not true. I think you're probably more like an average golfer. There's more good golf in there, we just gotta get it out (or drown it in alcohol, your choice).

There isn't a bad option listed... How about using alcohol to unleash his inner golfer?
 
That looks interesting. I don't think I hinge my wrists on the backswing. I wonder if that is the reason why I'm so inconsistent. The Kisner video I believe put my in the right direction. The ball checks up much better with that method. But my contact is still a work in progress. Maybe this one can be the one to get me the ball striking consistency I've been lacking for so long. I want to go out and try it now, but its like 104 degrees out at the moment. I gotta go out tomorrow morning and give it try. I hope I don't forget the key points when I do.

I'd be careful with Phil's "hinge and hold". It can easily turn into too much shaft lean and too much leading edge exposure. Fine for a PGA Tour pro who has extremely precise mechanics, but not so good for us mere mortals.

The important thing on chipping and short pitches is to make sure you expose the bounce by keeping the shaft vertical, or nearly so. That gives you the largest margin of error. You can literally hit an inch behind the ball and still have the ball go somewhere somewhat useful. See the Kisner video for more discussion.

Another thing which many newer golfers fail to understand is how your setup affects the energy you impart into the ball. If you setup to a short chip with your hands low like a normal full swing shot, you're going to impart a lot of energy into the ball and you're probably going to wonder why It went way past the pin when you were just making a little swing, trying to hit it a few feet. When you have short chips, you want to get handle vertical and hit the chip like a putt. (Some refer to it as "putting with loft"). Doing so removes a large amount of energy from the shot and allows you to hit those very precise chips.
 
I haven't been around as much this week - how is everyone doing? Breaking 80??? :)

I have just been busy with work and with house projects and thought I'd take a step back from practice this week a bit after grinding hard....been stretching and working on my aches and pains. And looks like I'm playing with a buddy tomorrow - hopefully with the mental hiccups and swing breakdown in my rearview.... o_O
I'll tell you tomorrow after my round.
 
I haven't been around as much this week - how is everyone doing? Breaking 80??? :)

I have just been busy with work and with house projects and thought I'd take a step back from practice this week a bit after grinding hard....been stretching and working on my aches and pains. And looks like I'm playing with a buddy tomorrow - hopefully with the mental hiccups and swing breakdown in my rearview.... o_O

Been busy myself.

Hit the range last night and got some decent long club work in and tried to dial in my newly reshafted gap wedge.
Mixed results, but overall I feel decent about shooting mid to low nineties again soon. Gap wedge full swing may be a bit too close to PW distance now with the new shaft so I'll have to figure that out a bit more.

Had to shorten my backswing a bit while hitting my irons as a little shank tendency tried to creep its way back in if I got too much rotation in the backswing.
Limiting hand involvement (especially at transition) , shortening the backswing, and relaxing the tempo was the fix for that.

Might get to play tomorrow, may have to wait until Monday.
 
Been busy myself.

Hit the range last night and got some decent long club work in and tried to dial in my newly reshafted gap wedge.
Mixed results, but overall I feel decent about shooting mid to low nineties again soon. Gap wedge full swing may be a bit too close to PW distance now with the new shaft so I'll have to figure that out a bit more.

Had to shorten my backswing a bit while hitting my irons as a little shank tendency tried to creep its way back in if I got too much rotation in the backswing.
Limiting hand involvement (especially at transition) , shortening the backswing, and relaxing the tempo was the fix for that.


Might get to play tomorrow, may have to wait until Monday.
Looks like I'm playing nine tomorrow with a friend...there is a nice 9-hole course here on the Kansas side....going to hit that up for the first time in years...so....new course, basically.

To the bolded part in your comment - I was having some major issues with hitting more off the toe....and I am not quite sure what was going on, and frankly haven't done a lot to fix it, outside of a range session a week ago where I hit a lot of really short backswing shots (REALLY short) and just tried to square the face at impact.

to your point of shortening backswing...that's when I'm typically at my best. Small backswing and then go thru the ball to a nice follow thru...helps me keep on plane, keep the face square, etc. I probably sacrifice some distance, but that's fine. I MIGHT try to go hit a small bucket tonight with the rain moving out...but also, I don't want to start overthinking and all that prior to playing...maybe just a small bucket to loosen up...hit some wedges and shorter irons, etc. May try to go hit a warmup bucket prior to the round tomorrow as well...which I rarely do (but probably should, so I don't spend two holes loosening up).
 
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