Video Understanding Bounce and Sole Design

[DG_1234]

There are several players who have the trailing edge of the irons ground, which lowers the effective bounce and decreases the front-to-back camber radius (making it more curved).

The players with the trailing edge of irons ground are usually players who take shallow divots ?
The down side to trailing edge grinds on irons is that (for some players) this may create some digging through the ground ?

 

[vgolfman]

The players with the trailing edge of irons ground are usually players who take shallow divots ?
The down side to trailing edge grinds on irons is that (for some players) this may create some digging through the ground ?

That is typically the case, however for tour players it is sometimes just what they are used to feeling as the club goes through the turf rather than a real performance factor/difference. For normal amateurs it should all be about performance.

 

[Bryndom]

This is a great video and very timely for me! I haven't until the last few years really appreciated the benefits of fitting. This explains it so well why two clubs may look the same, have the same specs on paper but perform differently.

 

[JB]

Thanks MV

 

[fuffle master]

Much, much, much more important than the indoor/outdoor question is the quality/knowledge of the fitter and the tools/clubs he or she has to fit with. Get fit!!!!! Indoors or out.

Very interesting video.

I think this is a very important statement. When I went to get fit for my iron set, the fitter didn't even mention about bounce or anything other than swing speed for shaft, location the club hit the turf for degree up/down, and what clubs I felt most comfortable hitting as he watched my lines.

I think the difference from a general fitter in a box store and one that really knows their stuff is going to help out a golfer enjoy the purchased/fitted clubs much more. The only issue is finding those fitters with that wealth of knowledge besides recommendations from friends.

 

[DG_1234]

That is typically the case, however for tour players it is sometimes just what they are used to feeling as the club goes through the turf rather than a real performance factor/difference. For normal amateurs it should all be about performance.

Thanks for your reply Michael.
My own perspective about sole grinds is that anything moderate (not too extreme) is likely suitable for most amateur players. For example, I roll my eyes a bit when Vokey discusses the various sole grind options offered within his wedge line, because the functional benefits of the grind (s) are dependent on the player having the swing technique needed to properly use the wedge.
On Tour I see highly skilled players utilizing exceptional green side wedge technique. Absolutely those guys can and do benefit from particular sole shapes and wedge grinds.
For amateur play I see plenty of players with good effective full swing technique and ball striking ability , but rarely do I come across an amateur with Tour-like green side wedge technique.

 

[vgolfman]

Thanks for your reply Michael.
My own perspective about sole grinds is that anything moderate (not too extreme) is likely suitable for most amateur players. For example, I roll my eyes a bit when Vokey discusses the various sole grind options offered within his wedge line, because the functional benefits of the grind (s) are dependent on the player having the swing technique needed to properly use the wedge.
On Tour I see highly skilled players utilizing exceptional green side wedge technique. Absolutely those guys can and do benefit from particular sole shapes and wedge grinds.
For amateur play I see plenty of players with good effective full swing technique and ball striking ability , but rarely do I come across an amateur with Tour-like green side wedge technique.

Well, that's one way to look at it, but I disagree wholeheartedly. The "it doesn't matter" theory of club fitting is not something I will ever believe in. Too much experience (20+ years now) seeing player's games truly improve because of properly fit clubs, including wedges, and sadly, more than a couple who had bad fitting experiences get clubs that are wrong for their game and/or self-fit into the wrong things.

One other thing for our to think about... Are you seeing amateurs trying to compensate with swing technique/changes (that become flaws) to overcome a badly fit club or wedge?

Getting a trained fitting professional can help find any player, I repeat ANY PLAYER, get into the best wedge/sole for their game that will optimize their performance, whatever the skill level may be. Club design matters. Fitting matters.

 

[golfunfiltered]

Club design matters. Fitting matters.

/thread

 

[DG_1234]

Well, that's one way to look at it, but I disagree wholeheartedly. The "it doesn't matter" theory of club fitting is not something I will ever believe in. Too much experience (20+ years now) seeing player's games truly improve because of properly fit clubs, including wedges, and sadly, more than a couple who had bad fitting experiences get clubs that are wrong for their game and/or self-fit into the wrong things.

One other thing for our to think about... Are you seeing amateurs trying to compensate with swing technique/changes (that become flaws) to overcome a badly fit club or wedge?

Getting a trained fitting professional can help find any player, I repeat ANY PLAYER, get into the best wedge/sole for their game that will optimize their performance, whatever the skill level may be. Club design matters. Fitting matters.

Michael,

"It doesn't matter" theory of club fitting is not exactly what I wrote. I wrote what matters most is technique. In other words, Vokey's particular wedge grinds may help an amateur's shot, but 95% of the time the shot's success or failure is dependent on the technique he/she uses to make the swing and the particular grind may make a difference for about 5% of the shots.
Regarding ill fitting equipment influencing a player's swing technique, I absolutely see that often from too stiff of a driver, fairway, hybrid, iron etc... shaft flex. Players tend to make adjustments/compensations to fit the club (s) they are swinging, and too stout of a shaft tends to promote the tendency for players to over exert themselves, over swing, to make that shaft produce relatively playable shots.
For green side wedge play mostly I see amateurs struggle with faulty address technique, too much tension, nervousness, stress about the shot at hand, and those factors (more so than equipment specs) seems to be the cause of poor wedge shot results.

 

[aljaklaw]

Thanks for the information, it is much appreciated you coming in here and answering questions for us all

I have done a lot of work with my swing over the last few years and it is a lot shallower than it used to be, but I will definitely look at having different bounce options through my wedges and learn to play even more shots with each club based on the conditions and distance I need when I come to replace these current wedges

For my 60° slot, I go between a high bounce Callaway MD5 X Grind (previously a Nike Dual Sole, very similar) and a low bounce Wilson Staff PMP. Both have lots of edge relief so I don't really have to make adjustments. I choose based on what I think the short pitch turf conditions will be.

 

[maxw72]

I have been needing this! I kept thinking I should reach out to THP to see if someone can explain this to me!

 

[JB]

Michael,

"It doesn't matter" theory of club fitting is not exactly what I wrote. I wrote what matters most is technique. In other words, Vokey's particular wedge grinds may help an amateur's shot, but 95% of the time the shot's success or failure is dependent on the technique he/she uses to make the swing and the particular grind may make a difference for about 5% of the shots.
Regarding ill fitting equipment influencing a player's swing technique, I absolutely see that often from too stiff of a driver, fairway, hybrid, iron etc... shaft flex. Players tend to make adjustments/compensations to fit the club (s) they are swinging, and too stout of a shaft tends to promote the tendency for players to over exert themselves, over swing, to make that shaft produce relatively playable shots.
For green side wedge play mostly I see amateurs struggle with faulty address technique, too much tension, nervousness, stress about the shot at hand, and those factors (more so than equipment specs) seems to be the cause of poor wedge shot results.

Why does it have to be club fitting vs technique? Despite how those stats are unique, these two things are not mutually exclusive.

With the advance of options available to golfers, fitting is so tremendous in identifying best options for people for both their geography and skill set.

 

[Daddio]

V type soles are typically something that looks fairly wide and playable but is really a narrow sole/high(er) bounce option. When the face is opened, like in a bunker shot, then it typically really plays like a high bounce wedge because the front part of the V if you will is really exposed and getting close to vertical and the back side of the V still really isn't being used much. Obviously there are different severity of V soles and V soles can be great for some players (I am NOT implying its a bad design feature), but again, a narrow/high bounce sole with similar measurables would play very similar/same to one with a V sole.

As for your low loft/high bounce + high loft/low bounce combo, that is more rare than the reverse, but LOVE to hear you have tried out different combinations to make it work for your swing and playing style. Great example there.

Thanks vgolfman. I'm updating my wedges and am set on certain wedges but hoped to go 53* in the SW slot this time. Issue is I'd need to have them either bend a 52/11 'V' grind or a 54/12 'S' grind to get there. On either side of SW my new GW will be a 48/11 'V' and LW will be a 58/10 'C'. Would bending the 52/11 V or 54/12 S to 53* fit in there best? I'm not steep, I play all kinds of course and sand conditions, I'm seeking the best scoring shot versatility.

 

[Sox_Fan]

Great video that cleared up a lot of confusion for me.

 

[vgolfman]

For my 60° slot, I go between a high bounce Callaway MD5 X Grind (previously a Nike Dual Sole, very similar) and a low bounce Wilson Staff PMP. Both have lots of edge relief so I don't really have to make adjustments. I choose based on what I think the short pitch turf conditions will be.

This sounds like a good plan.

 

[DG_1234]

Why does it have to be club fitting vs technique? Despite how those stats are unique, these two things are not mutually exclusive.

With the advance of options available to golfers, fitting is so tremendous in identifying best options for people for both their geography and skill set.

I am not "against fitting". I just believe the overwhelming influence to shot making is swing technique. In other words, if a player has a set of clubs of reasonable specifications (for example any brand's stock offering) I think it is misleading to expect that a fitting into different specs would have a materially significant impact on the shot making and, or, scoring.
My perspective here is based on observing lots of playing partners before and after fitting shot making, scoring results.

 

[vgolfman]

Thanks vgolfman. I'm updating my wedges and am set on certain wedges but hoped to go 53* in the SW slot this time. Issue is I'd need to have them either bend a 52/11 'V' grind or a 54/12 'S' grind to get there. On either side of SW my new GW will be a 48/11 'V' and LW will be a 58/10 'C'. Would bending the 52/11 V or 54/12 S to 53* fit in there best? I'm not steep, I play all kinds of course and sand conditions, I'm seeking the best scoring shot versatility.

First, going 53 and having 5 degree loft gap makes a lot of sense.

Second, just for extra clarity for all, if you bend the 52/11 one degree weak, it becomes a 53/12. If you bend a 54/12 one degree strong, it becomes a 53/11. However, bounce is just ONE FACTOR in how a sole functions... front-to-back camber (radius), sole width, heel/toe relief, general shaping, leading edge elevation, etc. all matter as well. So without knowing exactly which S and V grinds you are looking at it is tough for me say with a lot of confidence, but your "I'm not steep" and playing diff. courses/conditions and seeking versatility would suggest whichever has the thinner width and more heel/toe relief, which is a much bigger factor than only 1 deg of bounce in this case. Good luck and report back how it works!

 

[Daddio]

First, going 53 and having 5 degree loft gap makes a lot of sense.

Second, just for extra clarity for all, if you bend the 52/11 one degree weak, it becomes a 53/12. If you bend a 54/12 one degree strong, it becomes a 53/11. However, bounce is just ONE FACTOR in how a sole functions... front-to-back camber (radius), sole width, heel/toe relief, general shaping, leading edge elevation, etc. all matter as well. So without knowing exactly which S and V grinds you are looking at it is tough for me say with a lot of confidence, but your "I'm not steep" and playing diff. courses/conditions and seeking versatility would suggest whichever has the thinner width and more heel/toe relief, which is a much bigger factor than only 1 deg of bounce in this case. Good luck and report back how it works!

Thank you for your detailed help. I'm going with the Cleveland CBX2 at GW and SW and the Cleveland CBX Full Face LW. My last set of wedges were three original CBX at 48/54/60 and I'm one who saw benefit from the extra forgiveness their cavity back design offered.

 

[JB]

I am not "against fitting". I just believe the overwhelming influence to shot making is swing technique. In other words, if a player has a set of clubs of reasonable specifications (for example any brand's stock offering) I think it is misleading to expect that a fitting into different specs would have a materially significant impact on the shot making and, or, scoring.
My perspective here is based on observing lots of playing partners before and after fitting shot making, scoring results.

Nobody has ever said that fitting plays a larger role than swing. I still can’t figure out how a company offering multiple grinds, so that players can find something that works great for them is a negative in any way shape or form.

According to you, they have bad technique, so why not have something that could possibly help with that? Or if they have good technique, have something that offers the versatility to maximize that. The idea that eliminating choices and fitting somehow becomes a positive for a golfer, is just off base. Technique matters. Fitting matters. They are absolutely not mutual exclusive, although you have made it very clear throughout the forum that you do not believe they work.

 

[Nate<80]

Thank you for sharing @JB. A lot of things I did not know. A world of information packed into a short video!

 

[93civiccpe]

This is helpful and making me rethink my wedges. I have struggled recently out of wet bunkers..

 

[Desmond]

I am not "against fitting". I just believe the overwhelming influence to shot making is swing technique. In other words, if a player has a set of clubs of reasonable specifications (for example any brand's stock offering) I think it is misleading to expect that a fitting into different specs would have a materially significant impact on the shot making and, or, scoring.
My perspective here is based on observing lots of playing partners before and after fitting shot making, scoring results.

I found a big difference when I didn't know what I was doing in the late '90's between a low bounce wedge with a sharp leading edge and something with a blunted leading edge and medium width sole and camber and 8-12 deg of bounce in a medium sole witih less heel/toe grinding and some camber - dig/knife into ground v. slide

 

[DG_1234]

I found a big difference when I didn't know what I was doing in the late '90's between a low bounce wedge with a sharp leading edge and something with a blunted leading edge and medium width sole and camber and 8-12 deg of bounce in a medium sole witih less heel/toe grinding and some camber - dig/knife into ground v. slide

I know there are extreme specs for wedges suitable for very few (if any) players. The former Merit Zero Bounce wedge company products increased customer scoring averages by 3 to 5 shots per round.

 

[93civiccpe]

I know there are extreme specs for wedges suitable for very few (if any) players. The former Merit Zero Bounce wedge company products increased customer scoring averages by 3 to 5 shots per round.

How many did they sell??

 

[DG_1234]

How many did they sell??

Merit Zero Bounce wedges were trendy for a short while, during a time period when internet forum discussion forum boards had lots of posts spreading misinformation about "Tour pros having bounce ground off their wedges". So the common refrain became "bounce is for hackers' and forum participants bought up whichever brands were around that offered the lowest bounce options. I imagine that's when the Merit Golf Zero Bounce wedge line was born, from the misguided thinking that if low bounce is good, zero bounce must be even better,