Wedges & Spin - A Conversation

wcueb923

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I always thought that the player was the biggest variable in creating spin on wedge shots. If 2 wedges have the same grooves and weight distribution, I don't see how one could spin any more than the other with the same ball.
I agree with jt2929. During yesterdays rould JB Had crazy spin on his CG's. I have the same ones and could only pray that one day I can spin half as much.So Player it is
 

Hawk

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I always wondered how the ball getting shredded related to spin. I know that it's common to think that it does, but I was under the impression that grooves really are there to impart more spin when there is something between the ball and the club face (i.e. water, grass). I do know that the Cally Jaws I played with in Florida took a chunk out of an e6 and that was new to me, but I didn't notice that it spun the ball any more.
 

SD Charlie

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I think biggest factor when looking at spin is the player more than the actual wedge. Their skill level and how they strike the ball seems to be determining factor versus which wedge spins more than the other. When you have skilled golfer then you can look into which wedge spins more. However there are so many variables (ball, wedge bounce, grass type (fairways/green), firm/softer fairways, condition of greens......etc that you have to factor in that Dave Pelz would have a field day if asked about it. I've seen 2 players use the same wedge & ball and get completely different results. The lower handicap player could stop/spin back a wedge vs higher handicap the ball would check but still have good amount of rollout.
I think what JB is trying to say is eliminate the variable of skill level. That is, for a single golfer of any skill level, using the same swing, some wedges spin more than others.


Another thought would be differences in swing weight.

After a while if you really want to split hairs, you could even argue the type of grass you play on makes a difference and would favor one wedge over another.

A groove on a club is kind of like a groove on your tire. It's a channel for the grass caught between your club and ball to get out of the way for better and more contact, just like grooves on your tires channel water, snow, mud, etc. If you play on really fine grass, it would react different than a very coarse blade of grass. Thus, the reason for different grooves in tires for snow, rain, mud. However, the differences between grasses is litterally splitting hairs.
I don't think grooves are really there to channel away grass, since one is supposed to be contacting the ball first. Sure, in deep rough, there's going to be grass between clubface and ball, but there are many other lies than deep rough. I think grooves are there mostly to dig into the cover of the ball, to impart the spin that stabilizes ball flight.

My thoughts on this topic are that, groove conditions equalized, the variables left behind are swing weight, CG of the club head, surface roughness and shaft characteristics. At least, those variables are what I think could really cause differences in spin imparted to the ball.
 

Murray

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You give any wedge to a tour player and he'll spin it regardless. Ball is obviously a factor, but I also think the weight of the head is key
 

biggsy

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How would one be sharper than the other? Newer yes, but sharper when they are both new? I mean many are cut the exact same way right?
Played CG's, Jaws and xFT's from last year and nothing spun or tore up balls like the Jaws wedges. I think the Jaws wedges were sharper or deeper or whatever it might be, nothing spun like those. All of the wedges were new when comparing them.

I think it comes down to a player. Some just know how to hit it right to impart or eliminate spin.
 

MattyKrack17

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i agree its player., u could give me a wedge with 300 grit sand paper on the face and i still wouldnt be able to put spin on the ball!! something i will have to learn to do
 

Chunkylover77

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Just thinking off the top of my head which is never a good thing. I would think that the shaft would have something to do with it. Possibly the sole grind as well will allow you to get better ball first contact which in turn will allow for better spin.
 

Gus R

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Have no clue why or if one wedge spins more that another, but my playing partner just bought a new Ram wedge. He is in his late 60's does not spin the ball much at all. He hits a 56* about 80 yards full swing. Well on the first hole yesterday he hit a full wedge to the green. He got to the green and marked his ball. When he picked up his ball (ProV1) he was upset because it had the cover shaved from the wedge. He had never seen this before on any wedges he had played. The only thing in my mind was that the new grooves shaved the cover and if so why had he not had this happed with other wedges he had used in the past.
 

Hanks

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I would think the folllowing factors would all play a role in more spin with all equipment specs being equal, assuming the same swing speed/angle of attack via robot testing, and same ball being used:

milling
shaft
club head weight distribution
groove angle
# of grooves
 

Murray

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Hanks is all wise. I'd agree
 

interlooper

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I would think the folllowing factors would all play a role in more spin with all equipment specs being equal, assuming the same swing speed/angle of attack via robot testing, and same ball being used:

milling
shaft
club head weight distribution
groove angle
# of grooves
I would add bounce to that as well.
 

Dr. Teeth

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I like this test. http://www.uintagolf.com/expert.html and click on the Feeling GROOOOVY article with October 28/ 2009.
Good information. The result is theres not to much difference from the fairway shots but theres a huge difference when the shot is made from the Rough.
This was the point that Roger Cleveland was trying to make. He said earlier in the interview I quoted. He said that from the fairway there is essentially no difference between wedge companies. But from the ruff is where he feels his product is superior. Again this is not my opinion as I have no experience with these wedges, but the claims from the club's designer.
 

pjcedog

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I assumed a good lie in the fairway was the starting point with the only variable being the wedge itself - anytime rough is involved all bets are off when it comes to spin. Anything can happen.
 

10YardDraw

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So you are saying that with brand new grooves on both, and the same ball and shaft in both clubs, you would notice more spin out of last years Jaws than others?
that is exactly what im saying, that is what i have seen, last year before i bought my Jaws wedges i hit them side by side with the CG15's, Vokeys(dont like them one bit) MP-T10 and the Jaws would spin the ball better than any of those.
 

JB

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that is exactly what im saying, that is what i have seen, last year before i bought my Jaws wedges i hit them side by side with the CG15's, Vokeys(dont like them one bit) MP-T10 and the Jaws would spin the ball better than any of those.
They had the same shaft in them in the store? hmmmm, now I am confused because I am pretty sure they dont come with the same shafts.
 

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they were all wedge flex shafts i believe
 

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i ended up buying the Jaws with S300 but im pretty sure when i tested them they were all wedge flex
 

JB

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they were all wedge flex shafts i believe
i ended up buying the Jaws with S300 but im pretty sure when i tested them they were all wedge flex
That is not really the same as the same shafts though (in my opinion). My DG Spinner shafts are wedge flex shafts, but that does not mean they will produce the same spin as the same flex in another shaft.
 

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That is not really the same as the same shafts though (in my opinion). My DG Spinner shafts are wedge flex shafts, but that does not mean they will produce the same spin as the same flex in another shaft.
none of the ones i mentioned had any special spinner shaft, The clevelands had the stock wedge flex shaft, the mizuno had the stock wedge flex shaft, the jaws had the stock wedge flex shaft and the vokeys, whether or not they were all the same manufaturer i have no idea, you cant tell that since all the OEMS have their stickers on them
 

JB

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none of the ones i mentioned had any special spinner shaft, The clevelands had the stock wedge flex shaft, the mizuno had the stock wedge flex shaft, the jaws had the stock wedge flex shaft and the vokeys, whether or not they were all the same manufaturer i have no idea, you cant tell that since all the OEMS have their stickers on them
No, what I am saying is that the wedges you tested while stock and the same flex, were not the same shafts. Kind of like picking up a R11 and a RAZR Hawk. Both might be stock stiff shafts, but they can still be very different.
 

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none of the ones i mentioned had any special spinner shaft, The clevelands had the stock wedge flex shaft, the mizuno had the stock wedge flex shaft, the jaws had the stock wedge flex shaft and the vokeys, whether or not they were all the same manufacturer i have no idea, you cant tell that since all the OEMS have their stickers on them
thats what i meant by the bolded, i still say give me all the ones i tested with all either the exact same wedge flex or Dynamic Gold S300 and the jaws will spin more for me. I just dont think one company's wedge flex shaft will differ enough from another's that it will make that much of a difference in spin, I'm not talking about special shafts like the KBS hi rev or DG Spinners just normal wedge flex shafts that have been coming in wedges before the special shafts were introduced, maybe I'm completely wrong and each OEM specially designs the shaft to maximize spin for their wedge but i have never heard of that if they do.
 

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maybe I'm completely wrong and each OEM specially designs the shaft to maximize spin for their wedge but i have never heard of that if they do.
Each company chooses their wedge shaft differently.

The robot test showed exactly what happened when wedges were hit off of tight lies (which is what I asked about above)
Our testing shows something similar.

If you are seeing something different I think thats great for your game, but I am not sure it is really testing wedge heads since there were other variables such as different shafts in each one you tried.
 

tnc200

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I would add bounce to that as well.
Bounce seems like it would make a big difference to me as well. If spin is generated by pinching the ball between the turf and club, then a low bounce, no bounce club would generate more spin, is this correct?
 

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Bounce seems like it would make a big difference to me as well. If spin is generated by pinching the ball between the turf and club, then a low bounce, no bounce club would generate more spin, is this correct?
i wouldnt think so, low bounce/no bounce isnt gonna be right for everybody so they wouldnt hit it as good, my SW is 56/16 and my LW is 60/13, really low bounce wedges dont work for me
 

WMac19

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I would add bounce to that as well.

Lee Trevino swears that clubs with more bounce spin the ball more. He says as the club impacts the turf, the bounce propels the clubface into the ball with more force. Interesting thought.
 

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