When on the green,.......why....

[Junkyard]

Clearly there have been some strong opinions expressed in this thread, and having read through all five pages I would like to know what criteria constitutes slow play. Rollin is of the opinion that time spent on the putting green is the largest culprit, but at what point do we consider a group "slow"? For example, every course has a "pace of play" time that they expect a group of four golfers to be able to comfortably complete 18 holes in. Let's say 4 hours for example. Now, if a group is playing on a pace of 4 hours but the group behind is on a 3:45 pace does that make the group in front slow? I know this has been debated at great length in other threads.

I am very fortunate that I have the privilege of being in the first group out at my home course, therefore having to wait on nobody but my playing partners. We regularly play as five. The key to our pace of play is one of us is always moving - until we reach the putting green. Once we are on the green, we have to be careful not to cast our shadow on another's line. We only mark if a ball is on the same line or visually a distraction. We have one guy - let's call him Taz - who hits his putt, rakes it away if it's less than 4 feet and then wanders the green. I have had to learn the skill of blocking out movement in my peripheral vision in order to be able to putt. I will mark, clean and replace my ball while another member is putting, provided that my doing so does not affect his setup and stroke.

My opinion on the subject? I think if you look close enough, every part of the game of golf can be a contributing factor to "slow play". Guys will stand around on tee boxes joking around before putting a peg in the ground, an entire group will spend several minutes looking for one golf ball while no shots are hit, golfers on opposite sides of a fairway will take turns hitting when the second could easily have chosen a club, taken a practice swing and just has to wait for the sound of contact in order to know it's his/her turn. Deep rough around greens can severely slow down play when less-skilled golfers are involved. So why does the putting green take the biggest hit? Sure, there are some who analyze every putt like it was to win a green jacket, but in my opinion the greatest reason that the putting green is tagged as the greatest contributor is because the golfers aren't moving forward. I think it would be interesting to know time breakdowns for an average length par 4 - if it takes a group 15 minutes to play, is the tee box 3 minutes, the fairway 8 minutes and the green complex 4? So per golfer, 1 minute on the tee and green, and 2 minutes in the fairway. That's pretty reasonable in my book.

 

[5150]

Clearly there have been some strong opinions expressed in this thread, and having read through all five pages I would like to know what criteria constitutes slow play. Rollin is of the opinion that time spent on the putting green is the largest culprit, but at what point do we consider a group "slow"? For example, every course has a "pace of play" time that they expect a group of four golfers to be able to comfortably complete 18 holes in. Let's say 4 hours for example. Now, if a group is playing on a pace of 4 hours but the group behind is on a 3:45 pace does that make the group in front slow? I know this has been debated at great length in other threads.

I am very fortunate that I have the privilege of being in the first group out at my home course, therefore having to wait on nobody but my playing partners. We regularly play as five. The key to our pace of play is one of us is always moving - until we reach the putting green. Once we are on the green, we have to be careful not to cast our shadow on another's line. We only mark if a ball is on the same line or visually a distraction. We have one guy - let's call him Taz - who hits his putt, rakes it away if it's less than 4 feet and then wanders the green. I have had to learn the skill of blocking out movement in my peripheral vision in order to be able to putt. I will mark, clean and replace my ball while another member is putting, provided that my doing so does not affect his setup and stroke.

My opinion on the subject? I think if you look close enough, every part of the game of golf can be a contributing factor to "slow play". Guys will stand around on tee boxes joking around before putting a peg in the ground, an entire group will spend several minutes looking for one golf ball while no shots are hit, golfers on opposite sides of a fairway will take turns hitting when the second could easily have chosen a club, taken a practice swing and just has to wait for the sound of contact in order to know it's his/her turn. Deep rough around greens can severely slow down play when less-skilled golfers are involved. So why does the putting green take the biggest hit? Sure, there are some who analyze every putt like it was to win a green jacket, but in my opinion the greatest reason that the putting green is tagged as the greatest contributor is because the golfers aren't moving forward. I think it would be interesting to know time breakdowns for an average length par 4 - if it takes a group 15 minutes to play, is the tee box 3 minutes, the fairway 8 minutes and the green complex 4? So per golfer, 1 minute on the tee and green, and 2 minutes in the fairway. That's pretty reasonable in my book.

Generally speaking, just drawing from my own experience, I find that many folks think define “slow play” as “slower than me.”

 

[MSEASU]

Well I will admit twice on Friday I was the guy in the fairway and both times I took my 3H out, and my only thought was "if I roll up on the green I will by them a beer" needless to say I left with the same amount of change I started the round with. But both times I was within 10 yards of the green.

I think we hit into them enough Friday.

 

[greenOak]

I agree with most of your points OP, but its a losing battle. Too many golfers would rather adhere to ridiculous notions of "tradition" and "etiquette" instead of playing ready golf. I 100% agree that greens are the biggest cause of slow play. I see a lot of people saying "I take my time on the greens and still finish in 3:30", but almost all of them are low-handicappers who can afford to take more time on their shots since they hit less of them. Nothing worse than getting stuck behind a foursome of hackers who insist on waiting until Bob hits his 7th shot on the green to putt, marking their ball after every lag putt, and discussing whose farthest away from the hole.

 

[MagicSpell]

I agree with most of your points OP, but its a losing battle. Too many golfers would rather adhere to ridiculous notions of "tradition" and "etiquette" instead of playing ready golf. I 100% agree that greens are the biggest cause of slow play. I see a lot of people saying "I take my time on the greens and still finish in 3:30", but almost all of them are low-handicappers who can afford to take more time on their shots since they hit less of them. Nothing worse than getting stuck behind a foursome of hackers who insist on waiting until Bob hits his 7th shot on the green to putt, marking their ball after every lag putt, and discussing whose farthest away from the hole.

I would hazard to guess that if they are waiting for Bob to hit seven shots to the green the pace of play ON the green is not the issue.

 

[greenOak]

I would hazard to guess that if they are waiting for Bob to hit seven shots to the green the pace of play ON the green is not the issue.

You can have someone in your group score a 10 every hole and still keep the pace up. Its a lot harder to do if you're waiting for them to get on the green before the rest of you start putting.

 

[greg19]

You can have someone in your group score a 10 every hole and still keep the pace up. Its a lot harder to do if you're waiting for them to get on the green before the rest of you start putting.

There comes a time when someone needs to tell that guy on his 7th shot (hole after hole) while you're waiting on the green that his 4 practice swings each time probably aren't going to really help him today, lol

 

[rollin]

poor play can be and sometimes is but doesnt have to at all be a slow play problem. i been there and often enough still am. All you have to do is simply move and take care of your business much more quickly. And if need be even be willing to just pick up. I can shoot a 103 and play in under 4 hrs without any problem at all if thats what I need to do. Ive done it many times. It takes some effort but if one is aware and cares enough he can and will do it.

Ive also been in countless rounds playing pretty darn poorly while with others who are shooing good 80-ish low cap golf and yet found myself continuously waiting on such players very often during that same round. And so I may hit a 100 yrd scribbler off the tee. What do i do? i walk fast to my ball and get there prepared to hit and do so before the others even barely catch up or stride past me. But then when they get to their ball I wait and wait for them to hit. So im taking more strokes but yet waiting on those talking fewer strokes. Happens many times. And often enough when we got to the greens (around and on) is where the most waiting is to be had.

This isnt always the case as every round is different and every person is different and the scenarios are endless both good and bad but happens plenty.

 

[NEhomer]

I was installing my putting lift devices on a course a couple of weeks ago and I was waiting on a group of ladies to clear the green. It was hilarious. Each of the 4 of them marked each putt no matter what. The first putted 4ft by and marked. The next putted 6 inches from the cup and marked. The next did the same Lol! Mrs 4ft holed out to cheers! Then the other three reset their coins and set the ball down each in turn to finish out.

 

[Canadan]

I agree with most of your points OP, but its a losing battle. Too many golfers would rather adhere to ridiculous notions of "tradition" and "etiquette" instead of playing ready golf. I 100% agree that greens are the biggest cause of slow play. I see a lot of people saying "I take my time on the greens and still finish in 3:30", but almost all of them are low-handicappers who can afford to take more time on their shots since they hit less of them. Nothing worse than getting stuck behind a foursome of hackers who insist on waiting until Bob hits his 7th shot on the green to putt, marking their ball after every lag putt, and discussing whose farthest away from the hole.

I disagree with just about all of this.

Marking a ball on a green after a lag putt is not the culprit of slow play.
Skill is not the culprit of slow play.
Determining who is away is not the culprit of slow play.
Bob hitting his 7th on the green and his playing partners respecting him is not the culprit of slow play.

 

[Canadan]

I'm not the kind of guy to wait for an invitation to play. When I am away, I'm usually pretty quick to pull the trigger.

I'll absolutely agree that a player should have read their line (assuming they are not in someone's way) and should be ready to putt when it's their turn, however, I do not agree that their ball needs to already be down. Marking until it's your turn to play is basic etiquette and does not impact pace unless their process of putting their ball down is slow.

Marking after a lag putt is proper etiquette and if someone wants to finish out after everyone else is closer, that is their right as a golfer. A gimme is not an obligation, nor is raking a putt, nor is putting out.

Pace of play can be bad in every facet of the game. Playing the entire hole is not the leading cause of 5 hour rounds.

 

[radiman]

I'm not the kind of guy to wait for an invitation to play. When I am away, I'm usually pretty quick to pull the trigger.

I'll absolutely agree that a player should have read their line (assuming they are not in someone's way) and should be ready to putt when it's their turn, however, I do not agree that their ball needs to already be down. Marking until it's your turn to play is basic etiquette and does not impact pace unless their process of putting their ball down is slow.

Marking after a lag putt is proper etiquette and if someone wants to finish out after everyone else is closer, that is their right as a golfer. A gimme is not an obligation, nor is raking a putt, nor is putting out.

Pace of play can be bad in every facet of the game. Playing the entire hole is not the leading cause of 5 hour rounds.

I have to say, I have not had a bad pace of play round since they spread the tee times for Covid restrictions. Instead of 8 minute tee times on a packed course, we were playing 15 minute tee times with half the traffic. Made a huge difference. I haven't seen anyone go full on PGA Tour putting routine either.

I think the biggest pace of play issue is courses trying to maximize their income. I can hardly blame them for it. There would be a trade off at some point though. If the tee sheet was packed enough to frustrate people, less golfers would play. We are now down to 12 minute tee times. They actually went back to 8 for a busy practice round for last weekends tournament and it was a nightmare. We played early enough to only have to deal with a 4:30 round. I talked to others who played in the afternoon and they were at 5 hours or more. Lots of trees, lots of lost golf balls, lots of golfers, packed tee sheet = slow round. At least here.

 

[Canadan]

12 minute tee times have been unreal at my home course. We used to strictly enforce 4 hour and 20 minute rounds as maximum, and we're now all playing in under 4 with no issue. I played in 4:30 at a different course this past weekend and it felt like an eternity hahaha

 

[Tevenor]

Most of the slow play I have observed usually are people jibber jabbering vs course-of-play activities. The league I play in on Saturdays requires all players to putt out. No gimmees. All normal rules followed ( i.e. no treating OB as lateral, no mulligans, ) and basically each week is treated as tournament singles play.

There are slow hitters ( people who take their time before a shot ) that are still able to keep pace. However, even the fastest hitters if not focusing on the round and jibber jabbering, running carts across fairways twice vs taking some clubs, or everyone grouping to one ball and migrating like a small swarm of insects, are going to play slow.

 

[radiman]

12 minute tee times have been unreal at my home course. We used to strictly enforce 4 hour and 20 minute rounds as maximum, and we're now all playing in under 4 with no issue. I played in 4:30 at a different course this past weekend and it felt like an eternity hahaha

Private course right? Are they still able to accommodate the members that want to play? I know our club has had a lot more rounds than normal this year. But, it feels like there are still a lot of opportunities to get on the course. I am hoping the 12 minute tee times stick. But, it's my first year there and I have no real say in it, lol. But, since it's private, it's not like they are losing revenue by not opening up the tee sheet.

 

[Canadan]

Private course right? Are they still able to accommodate the members that want to play? I know our club has had a lot more rounds than normal this year. But, it feels like there are still a lot of opportunities to get on the course. I am hoping the 12 minute tee times stick. But, it's my first year there and I have no real say in it, lol. But, since it's private, it's not like they are losing revenue by not opening up the tee sheet.

weekends are tough, but with kids activities increasing around here again, it's better.

 

[radiman]

weekends are tough, but with kids activities increasing around here again, it's better.

Once youth baseball got the green light here, the weekends opened up a lot. Not many members like playing before 8am either which is perfect for me. Jump on a cart and play a round in a couple hours.

 

[tucsoncacti]

I think we hit into them enough Friday.

Well and my point was/is they did not slow us down because of their play on the greens. They had horrible game management off the tee and fairway.

 

[rollin]

I agree that tee time interval is or may be the biggest reason for slow rounds in places where its too close.
More than 10mins and they shouldnt be the issue and other things are the issue. But at 9 or less especially like 8 or 7 and you've got a potential pace disaster from the first tee.

 

[rollin]

I'm not the kind of guy to wait for an invitation to play. When I am away, I'm usually pretty quick to pull the trigger.

I'll absolutely agree that a player should have read their line (assuming they are not in someone's way) and should be ready to putt when it's their turn, however, I do not agree that their ball needs to already be down. Marking until it's your turn to play is basic etiquette and does not impact pace unless their process of putting their ball down is slow.

Marking after a lag putt is proper etiquette and if someone wants to finish out after everyone else is closer, that is their right as a golfer. A gimme is not an obligation, nor is raking a putt, nor is putting out.

Pace of play can be bad in every facet of the game. Playing the entire hole is not the leading cause of 5 hour rounds.

perhaps part of the problem is that many folks whos ball is not down also did not read nor prepare as well and are not ready. And there in lies a double issue. They can only seem to do these things after thier ball is down only after its already their turn. I se it very often from people I may be with as well as group in front.

then on top of not being down nor prepared they cant finish out and will never go out of turn. Basically never consider doing things when practical so as to minimize unnecessary delay. And it doesnt have to be any race nor rush job. But only to prevent watsed time which slows things down. You get a group where 3 or all 4 are similar (in that nothing is done when practical to do so) and it collectively turns into a whole chunk of wasted time on greens and certainly can turn into a slowness problem.

 

[radiman]

perhaps part of the problem is that many folks whos ball is not down also did not read nor prepare as well and are not ready. And there in lies a double issue. They can only seem to do these things after thier ball is down only after its already their turn. I se it very often from people I may be with as well as group in front.

then on top of not being down nor prepared they cant finish out and will never go out of turn. Basically never consider doing things when practical so as to minimize unnecessary delay. And it doesnt have to be any race nor rush job. But only to prevent watsed time which slows things down. You get a group where 3 or all 4 are similar (in that nothing is done when practical to do so) and it collectively turns into a whole chunk of wasted time on greens and certainly can turn into a slowness problem.

I don't know where you play. But, your experience with playing partners and groups that surround you are completely different than anything I have witnessed, outside a higher level tournament. I have never seen a group grind out on the green like that. If they do, they're typically very good players who are getting from tee to green with no delay. If they choose to take a little time over their putts, so be it. They're also the ones shooting par or better and not holding us up. In fact, they're likely waiting on the next tee for the group ahead of them. At least in my experience.

Then, you get the delays on the tee of the shorter par 4 or a par 5 where there is that one guy who thinks he can get home in 2 from 290. There are so many factors that can attribute to delays. I find it odd that you focus on one issue you perceive and then just refuse to accept that your experience may not apply to everyone.

 

[rollin]

I don't know where you play. But, your experience with playing partners and groups that surround you are completely different than anything I have witnessed, outside a higher level tournament. I have never seen a group grind out on the green like that. If they do, they're typically very good players who are getting from tee to green with no delay. If they choose to take a little time over their putts, so be it. They're also the ones shooting par or better and not holding us up. In fact, they're likely waiting on the next tee for the group ahead of them. At least in my experience.

Then, you get the delays on the tee of the shorter par 4 or a par 5 where there is that one guy who thinks he can get home in 2 from 290. There are so many factors that can attribute to delays. I find it odd that you focus on one issue you perceive and then just refuse to accept that your experience may not apply to everyone.

its not all the time at all but these folks do exist who are too slow on greens. Thankfully i do not suffer the slow rounds i once did where i use to live. The biggest reson there was 7 min tee times there. If we got done in 5 on weekend mornings it was considered not too bad (thats how bad it was).

My county just had (covid) 16 min tee times and not one single round (4somes) went past 4hrs. And that was even on its longest course to walk where holes are far apart and which takes 10 mins longer than the others on average. Now back to 9 mins and all courses are once again 420 as a norm. Even before lats year they were at 10 and 420 use to about max for most rounds wirth many falling shorter. But ever since 9 now we moved the other way where 420 is more normal and lomnger is had more often. Dropping that one minuite seems to addd about 10 mins to the rounds omn average. had mor go past 420 last yeasr than i had in last several years combined.

None the less... and regardless how long the pace takes. There is a whole lot of slower play around and on greens and often enough causes things to slow down. And the reason is barbecue of those who just cannot do the things mentioned in a much more timely manor when on the greens. And especially when the person finds it necessary to do all the antics and yet still do not take care of them in a more efficient manor. Greens play can be slow by many folks and it adds up and if its 3 of 4 or an entire group failing to do it more efficiently it has great potential to be an issue.

almost none of us thinks we are slow at whatever we do. And many folks are not willing to admit that how they go about their greens play can be slow or much slower than it otherwise needs to be. And some even take offense to the idea that they may be taking too much time. So this issue wherever and however problematic it may or not actually get or be....will always live on.

 

[radiman]

its not all the time at all but these folks do exist who are too slow on greens. Thankfully i do not suffer the slow rounds i once did where i use to live. The biggest reson there was 7 min tee times there. If we got done in 5 on weekend mornings it was considered not too bad (thats how bad it was).

My county just had (covid) 16 min tee times and not one single round (4somes) went past 4hrs. And that was even on its longest course to walk where holes are far apart and which takes 10 mins longer than the others on average. Now back to 9 mins and all courses are once again 420 as a norm. Even before lats year they were at 10 and 420 use to about max for most rounds wirth many falling shorter. But ever since 9 now we moved the other way where 420 is more normal and lomnger is had more often. Dropping that one minuite seems to addd about 10 mins to the rounds omn average. had mor go past 420 last yeasr than i had in last several years combined.

None the less... and regardless how long the pace takes. There is a whole lot of slower play around and on greens and often enough causes things to slow down. And the reason is barbecue of those who just cannot do the things mentioned in a much more timely manor when on the greens. And especially when the person finds it necessary to do all the antics and yet still do not take care of them in a more efficient manor. Greens play can be slow by many folks and it adds up and if its 3 of 4 or an entire group failing to do it more efficiently it has great potential to be an issue.

almost none of us thinks we are slow at whatever we do. And many folks are not willing to admit that how they go about their greens play can be slow or much slower than it otherwise needs to be. And some even take offense to the idea that they may be taking too much time. So this issue wherever and however problematic it may or not actually get or be....will always live on.

If you are pushing 5 hour rounds. I am sorry. But, cleaning up 1 minute on the green will do little to stop it. Because, likely, there is a group taking too long to look for their balls, chatting with the cart girl, chatting with each other when they should be moving, and so on. As I said before, there are so many factors involved that expecting everyone to play speed golf on the greens isn't going to be the one thing that fixes it. Especially since not every group is as egregious as you claim.

But, the good news is that your tee times are now at a reasonable spread, so you shouldn't really have any issues.

 

[Phil75070]

@rollin Here's why you don't do what you propose. Yesterday, I hit my approach to the back of the 8th green. One of my playing partners hit his approach into a front right greenside bunker (to my left and back me being right handed). He had just picked up the rake and knowing him to be someone with an elaborate pre-shot routine, I did just what you proposed. While he was fooling around over there I putted coming up a couple of feet short. So I walked to my ball to finish the hole and while standing over it he hit his bunker shot without ever looking up. Apparently since he wasn't on the green yet he assumed everyone would be waiting for him to play. Well he skulled his bunker shot and just missed hitting me in the back of the head! So much for "efficiency"!

 

[greenOak]

I disagree with just about all of this.

Marking a ball on a green after a lag putt is not the culprit of slow play.
Skill is not the culprit of slow play.
Determining who is away is not the culprit of slow play.
Bob hitting his 7th on the green and his playing partners respecting him is not the culprit of slow play.

The notion that waiting for Bob to reach the green before putting s an act of respect is an example of one of the ridiculous practices of etiquette golf is famous for.