Where to place the tee?

clg82

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Just like the title says, how far in do you guys put the tee in when teeing off? Sometimes I put it really high and last night at the range was experimenting with putting it in kind of low........suggestions or comments?
 

Diane

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It depends on the length of the tee and what club I'm using.
 

C-Tech

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I change my tee height with the situation. If I want to hit a really high tee shot, I tee it high and swing up slightly. I use this to clear obstacles like the trees in the corner of the doglegs, etc. If it is windy, I will tee the ball up to an inch lower, choke up and hit the "stinger" to keep the ball out of the wind. For normal tee shots, I am between these two positions and try to hit a mid-trajectory that rolls after it hits.
 

clg82

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I change my tee height with the situation. If I want to hit a really high tee shot, I tee it high and swing up slightly. I use this to clear obstacles like the trees in the corner of the doglegs, etc. If it is windy, I will tee the ball up to an inch lower, choke up and hit the "stinger" to keep the ball out of the wind. For normal tee shots, I am between these two positions and try to hit a mid-trajectory that rolls after it hits.
I see, so the tee heigth doesn't affect wether or not my ball after flying straight after about 100-125 yards takes a sharp right curve....damn:confused2: I can't seem to figur out what does this......someitmes when i'm at the range i can hit them straight as an arrow then after a good couple of drives, it will start to go sharp right.......but i'm not changing anything........
 

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We reviewed a great tee that has a depth chart depending on the club you are using.
 

C-Tech

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I see, so the tee heigth doesn't affect wether or not my ball after flying straight after about 100-125 yards takes a sharp right curve....damn:confused2: I can't seem to figur out what does this......someitmes when i'm at the range i can hit them straight as an arrow then after a good couple of drives, it will start to go sharp right.......but i'm not changing anything........
Not necessarily.... Tee height can possibly have an affect on your ball flight, not just height, but also side spin. I don't want to get too technical because I am not a teacher, but....

If you make the same swing with the ball teed at different heights, you will get different impact positions for the head which can impart some additional side spin.

Based on what you said, that your shots start straight and then curve to the right, it sounds more like you have a problem with an open face at impact. There are two types of slices, one where the ball starts left and makes a big banana to the right (caused more by an out to in swing path) or the ball that starts on a straight line and then curves right (caused by decent swing path but leaving the face open at impact).

The latter seems to be your problem. I would practice making my normal swing but imagining trying to hit the ball with the toe of the club. This should get you turning your wrists and forearms over at impact and square your clubface, ridding you of the dreaded slice. Try it at slower swing speeds until you get a feel for it and gradually increase tempo until you are at your normal speed.
 

clg82

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Not necessarily.... Tee height can possibly have an affect on your ball flight, not just height, but also side spin. I don't want to get too technical because I am not a teacher, but....

If you make the same swing with the ball teed at different heights, you will get different impact positions for the head which can impart some additional side spin.

Based on what you said, that your shots start straight and then curve to the right, it sounds more like you have a problem with an open face at impact. There are two types of slices, one where the ball starts left and makes a big banana to the right (caused more by an out to in swing path) or the ball that starts on a straight line and then curves right (caused by decent swing path but leaving the face open at impact).

The latter seems to be your problem. I would practice making my normal swing but imagining trying to hit the ball with the toe of the club. This should get you turning your wrists and forearms over at impact and square your clubface, ridding you of the dreaded slice. Try it at slower swing speeds until you get a feel for it and gradually increase tempo until you are at your normal speed.
The second one sounds exactly right!! and what do you mean by square clubface? I have a curve in the clubface itself, like all drivers do. SHould i turn my rists towards my packside or more forward through the swing on contact? I guess what i'm asking is how do I "close" the clubface on impact, I have a pretty smooth swing.. (at least the people that i play with tell me they call me "silk" ;) so how do i get the clubface to close on impact?
 

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I'm throwing this out here purely for the sake of discussion. (Rt Handed Golfer) If you tee the ball high, then it stands to reason you want to hit the ball on the up swing, which also means farther forward in the stance. Since the ball is farther forward, the club path could be cutting across the ball at impact, causing a left to right (fade/slice) spin on the ball. Couple this with the shoulders possibly being slightly open at address due to the more forward ball position, you will be applying more right to left side spin, which will effect the ball after the applied back spin has worn off during the ball's flight. Ball will travel some straight at first, then turn to the right.

Does this sound right?

Would the same apply (in reverse) for a ball tee'd low, father back in the stance? At impact, a right to left (hook/draw) spin would be applied to the ball. Couple this with the shoulders being closed, due to the ball's position farther back in the stance, you get a side spin that takes over after the applied back spin wears off during the ball's flight. The ball will travel some what straight at first, then turn left.

I might have my left, and rights confused here...lol:confused2:
 

C-Tech

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The second one sounds exactly right!! and what do you mean by square clubface? I have a curve in the clubface itself, like all drivers do. SHould i turn my rists towards my packside or more forward through the swing on contact? I guess what i'm asking is how do I "close" the clubface on impact, I have a pretty smooth swing.. (at least the people that i play with tell me they call me "silk" ;) so how do i get the clubface to close on impact?
Again, consider that advice is normally worth whatever you pay for it and I am no teacher.:D However, I did fight this problem when I started playing so I am not without hard-won experience. What I mean by closing (or squaring) the clubface at impact is that you must turn your wrists over through impact so that the clubface is square to the line you want the ball to travel. Many people will leave the face open because they do not allow their wrists and forearms to rotate through the shot. When I say "hit the ball with the toe" I mean try to turn the clubhead over so far through impact that the toe of the club hits the ball instead of the face. (You probably couldn't actually do this, it is more of a sensation thing to practice that will get you to rotate your wrists).

Try it on the range and see if you get any improved results with your driver.
 

clg82

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I'm throwing this out here purely for the sake of discussion. (Rt Handed Golfer) If you tee the ball high, then it stands to reason you want to hit the ball on the up swing, which also means farther forward in the stance. Since the ball is farther forward, the club path could be cutting across the ball at impact, causing a left to right (fade/slice) spin on the ball. Couple this with the shoulders possibly being slightly open at address due to the more forward ball position, you will be applying more right to left side spin, which will effect the ball after the applied back spin has worn off during the ball's flight. Ball will travel some straight at first, then turn to the right.

Does this sound right?

Would the same apply (in reverse) for a ball tee'd low, father back in the stance? At impact, a right to left (hook/draw) spin would be applied to the ball. Couple this with the shoulders being closed, due to the ball's position farther back in the stance, you get a side spin that takes over after the applied back spin wears off during the ball's flight. The ball will travel some what straight at first, then turn left.

I might have my left, and rights confused here...lol:confused2:
It happens wether the ball is high or low........when driving I have the ball positioned on the inside of my left foot is that not correct?
 

clg82

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Again, consider that advice is normally worth whatever you pay for it and I am no teacher.:D However, I did fight this problem when I started playing so I am not without hard-won experience. What I mean by closing (or squaring) the clubface at impact is that you must turn your wrists over through impact so that the clubface is square to the line you want the ball to travel. Many people will leave the face open because they do not allow their wrists and forearms to rotate through the shot. When I say "hit the ball with the toe" I mean try to turn the clubhead over so far through impact that the toe of the club hits the ball instead of the face. (You probably couldn't actually do this, it is more of a sensation thing to practice that will get you to rotate your wrists).

Try it on the range and see if you get any improved results with your driver.
I'm sorry when you say "over" you mean towards the ground correct?
 

C-Tech

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I'm throwing this out here purely for the sake of discussion. (Rt Handed Golfer) If you tee the ball high, then it stands to reason you want to hit the ball on the up swing, which also means farther forward in the stance. Since the ball is farther forward, the club path could be cutting across the ball at impact, causing a left to right (fade/slice) spin on the ball. Couple this with the shoulders possibly being slightly open at address due to the more forward ball position, you will be applying more right to left side spin, which will effect the ball after the applied back spin has worn off during the ball's flight. Ball will travel some straight at first, then turn to the right.

Does this sound right?

Would the same apply (in reverse) for a ball tee'd low, father back in the stance? At impact, a right to left (hook/draw) spin would be applied to the ball. Couple this with the shoulders being closed, due to the ball's position farther back in the stance, you get a side spin that takes over after the applied back spin wears off during the ball's flight. The ball will travel some what straight at first, then turn left.

I might have my left, and rights confused here...lol:confused2:
All of that sounds correct, except in the first scenario where you are cutting across the ball with your swing, that ball would start left and come back with a big banana shape instead of start straight.... If your swing path is right to left, you will pull the ball. If the clubface is open, you get a slice spin that will bring it back towards the right.
 

C-Tech

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I'm sorry when you say "over" you mean towards the ground correct?
When I say "turn over" I mean that in the case of a right hander, your right forearm and wrist should pass over your left wrist and forearm through impact, so that your clubhead goes from open to the line before impact to closed to the line after impact. Imagine your clubhead is a swinging door. The ball should be directly between the jambs at impact. Does that visual make sense to you? Man, this is hard without a chalkboard..:D
 

clg82

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All of that sounds correct, except in the first scenario where you are cutting across the ball with your swing, that ball would start left and come back with a big banana shape instead of start straight.... If your swing path is right to left, you will pull the ball. If the clubface is open, you get a slice spin that will bring it back towards the right.
to close it you rotate your hands towards the ground correct?
 

BigLeftyinAZ

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These answers are correct if you want to follow the old ball flight laws.



The diagram at above shows how the ball comes off the clubface if the clubhead is not moving in the same direction that it is facing. Here are the basics of what happens:

* The ball will take a direction (red arrow) somewhere between the direction the clubface is pointing and the direction the clubhead is moving.
* The ball's path will be closer to the clubface direction than to the swing path.
* Most references show this as between 80:20 and 70:30. That is, the ball is 80% of the way from the swing path to the clubface direction.

The other obvious consequence of the clubface direction being different from the swing path is spin. The conditions in the diagram will result in clockwise spin on the ball, resulting in a fade or slice.

How does this relate to the "usual" diagram shown above. Well, it would relate very well -- if only the direction of the ball were well aligned to the swing path. But it's not; instead, the direction of the ball is closely aligned to the clubface direction. This fact is not reflected in the "usual" diagram.

When we take this inconvenient fact into account, we get a somewhat different set of ball flights on our diagram. Below are two diagrams. Each has nine trajectories on it, corresponding to the nine ballflights that Ed asked about. In the diagrams:

* Red arrows correspond to an outside-to-in swing for a right-handed golfer -- that is, a swing path to the left.
* Green arrows correspond to a down-the-line swingpath, straight at the target.
* Blue arrows correspond to an inside-to-out swing for a right-handed golfer -- that is, a swing path to the right.


This graphic shows ball flights where the clubface direction is referenced to the target line. That is, instead of using the ambiguous term "open", we say the clubface points right of the target line. The different kinds of arrows mean:


* Solid arrow: clubface points at the target.
* Dashed arrow: clubface points right of the target.
* Dotted arrow: clubface points left of the target.


This graphic shows ball flights where the clubface direction is referenced to the swing path. That is, instead of using the ambiguous term "open", we say the clubface points right of the swing path. The different kinds of arrows mean:

* Solid arrow: clubface points the same direction as the clubhead travels.
* Dashed arrow: clubface points right of the swing path.
* Dotted arrow: clubface points left of the swing path.

A discussion on the Wishon Golf web forum criticized these findings. In particular, Bill (a professional clubfitter from Santa Barbara) argued that "ball flight rules" said that the ball started in the direction of the swing path and curved toward the direction of the clubface. Simple -- but wrong. (H.L. Mencken once said, "For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.") Here are my responses to his arguments:

1. As a rebuttal to Bill's version of the "ball flight rules", I pointed out that, whatever they are, they must work in the vertical direction as well as horizontal. If they were as Bill proposes, a wedge shot should start out horizontal and climb in trajectory only due to spin. But we have all seen personally that wedge shots take off on a rather high trajectory, closer to the loft angle than to horizontal. So it is just wrong to say the ball starts off in the direction of the clubhead path; we're just arguing about how close the ball starts to the clubface angle. Which brings us to...
2. Bill pointed out that 19º is a huge amount to be off, either clubface angle or swing path. And so it is for "misses"; it might not be for a deliberate hook or slice. But sorry, Bill; for smaller angles, the results are pretty similar -- but more so. That is, instead of the direction of the ball being 70-80% in the direction of the clubface, it will be more like 90%.

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/ballflight.php?ref=
 

BigLeftyinAZ

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Hopefully this will simplfy what was posted

Simple ball flight laws. The face angle determines where the ball starts and the path determines where the ball curves. The numbers are slightly more technical, and both face and path play small roles in both starting line and curve, but the majority lies in what I told you.

So, if you are starting it to the right and it is staying out right or even slicing, then your path isn't in to out enough.

(Geometry)

If your path is 10 degrees in to out, then your face can be as much as 9 degrees open (to the target line) and it will still be closed to path resulting in a draw.

This is how people hit push draws, and basically the basis for S&T. Swing in to out a controlled amount with a face that is both open to the target line yet closed to the swing path. A good example is swinging 10 degrees in to out with a 5 degree open club face. Ball will start right due to the open face and curve left due to the open face being closed to the swing path (10-5=5)

I had this discussion earlier today via PM and am going to copy and paste the rest of it. ....

My instructor always uses a model and draws a picture showing a path that is 10 degrees in to out. Then shows the result of that path with 4 different club face positions.

-15 degrees open results in a push fade.
-Ball starts right because face is open and then fades because face is open to path

-10 degrees open results in a straight push (my preferred miss)
-Ball starts right because face is open and stays on that line because the face matches the path

-5 Degrees open results in a push draw (money shot)
- Ball starts right because face is open and then draws back to the target because face is CLOSED to the path. See how although the face is 5 degrees open to the TARGET line it is still closed to the PATH of the swing? Once you understand this you will REALLY understand the golf swing and what makes the ball do what.

-0 degrees results in a straight overdraw
-The ball starts on target and draws low and left of it....now I think you know why.

Hope that helps. Sounds to me like your face is either far too open to your decent path, or your face is a decent amount open but your path is not in to out enough.

This goes against the 'old ball flight laws' or as I call them, the 'wrong ball flight laws' which used to say the ball started out in the direction of the path of the swing and then was supposed to curve depending on the angle of the clubhead.
 

clg82

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These answers are correct if you want to follow the old ball flight laws.



The diagram at above shows how the ball comes off the clubface if the clubhead is not moving in the same direction that it is facing. Here are the basics of what happens:

* The ball will take a direction (red arrow) somewhere between the direction the clubface is pointing and the direction the clubhead is moving.
* The ball's path will be closer to the clubface direction than to the swing path.
* Most references show this as between 80:20 and 70:30. That is, the ball is 80% of the way from the swing path to the clubface direction.

The other obvious consequence of the clubface direction being different from the swing path is spin. The conditions in the diagram will result in clockwise spin on the ball, resulting in a fade or slice.

How does this relate to the "usual" diagram shown above. Well, it would relate very well -- if only the direction of the ball were well aligned to the swing path. But it's not; instead, the direction of the ball is closely aligned to the clubface direction. This fact is not reflected in the "usual" diagram.

When we take this inconvenient fact into account, we get a somewhat different set of ball flights on our diagram. Below are two diagrams. Each has nine trajectories on it, corresponding to the nine ballflights that Ed asked about. In the diagrams:

* Red arrows correspond to an outside-to-in swing for a right-handed golfer -- that is, a swing path to the left.
* Green arrows correspond to a down-the-line swingpath, straight at the target.
* Blue arrows correspond to an inside-to-out swing for a right-handed golfer -- that is, a swing path to the right.


This graphic shows ball flights where the clubface direction is referenced to the target line. That is, instead of using the ambiguous term "open", we say the clubface points right of the target line. The different kinds of arrows mean:


* Solid arrow: clubface points at the target.
* Dashed arrow: clubface points right of the target.
* Dotted arrow: clubface points left of the target.


This graphic shows ball flights where the clubface direction is referenced to the swing path. That is, instead of using the ambiguous term "open", we say the clubface points right of the swing path. The different kinds of arrows mean:

* Solid arrow: clubface points the same direction as the clubhead travels.
* Dashed arrow: clubface points right of the swing path.
* Dotted arrow: clubface points left of the swing path.

A discussion on the Wishon Golf web forum criticized these findings. In particular, Bill (a professional clubfitter from Santa Barbara) argued that "ball flight rules" said that the ball started in the direction of the swing path and curved toward the direction of the clubface. Simple -- but wrong. (H.L. Mencken once said, "For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.") Here are my responses to his arguments:

1. As a rebuttal to Bill's version of the "ball flight rules", I pointed out that, whatever they are, they must work in the vertical direction as well as horizontal. If they were as Bill proposes, a wedge shot should start out horizontal and climb in trajectory only due to spin. But we have all seen personally that wedge shots take off on a rather high trajectory, closer to the loft angle than to horizontal. So it is just wrong to say the ball starts off in the direction of the clubhead path; we're just arguing about how close the ball starts to the clubface angle. Which brings us to...
2. Bill pointed out that 19º is a huge amount to be off, either clubface angle or swing path. And so it is for "misses"; it might not be for a deliberate hook or slice. But sorry, Bill; for smaller angles, the results are pretty similar -- but more so. That is, instead of the direction of the ball being 70-80% in the direction of the clubface, it will be more like 90%.

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/ballflight.php?ref=
I officially have a headache after that one.....All I want to know is how to square the clubface so that I will quit having them fade right. do I rotate my hands towards the ground to square it up or not lol:angry:
 

herr_ryan

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Just like the title says, how far in do you guys put the tee in when teeing off? Sometimes I put it really high and last night at the range was experimenting with putting it in kind of low........suggestions or comments?
For me with the driver, after reading Sean Fister's Long Drive Bible, I use the 3 1/4 inch tees (which I've always used), but now I just barely put the stinker in the ground, so that the entire ball is above the top of my driver.
 

C-Tech

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I officially have a headache after that one.....All I want to know is how to square the clubface so that I will quit having them fade right. do I rotate my hands towards the ground to square it up or not lol:angry:
I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "towards the ground". Your hands are following your arms around your body at some angle between parallel to the ground and perpendicular to it? They should rotate (for a right hander) counter-clockwise right going over left to the finish.
 

clg82

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I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "towards the ground". Your hands are following your arms around your body at some angle between parallel to the ground and perpendicular to it? They should rotate (for a right hander) counter-clockwise right going over left to the finish.
That's what i mean........my hands are probably too far towards my back so it is leaving the face to open.....
 

Diane

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Clg82 - This is not a reflection on C-Tech's advice, but why don't you post in the "Ask The Pro" forum.
 

herr_ryan

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I officially have a headache after that one.....All I want to know is how to square the clubface so that I will quit having them fade right.
That would have more to do with ball position, i.e. how far forward or backward in the stance, rather than how high you tee the ball. It also depends if you're hitting it straight right, if the ball is starting off straight and then fading right, or if the ball is starting off to your left and then fading right (for a right-handed golfer).

I think generally most people play the ball way too far back in their stance with their driver. As I said, I recently read Sean Fister's Long Drive Bible (he is a 3-time world long driving champion), and he echoed this. He says you should play the ball off your front toe with the driver. Most people will say off your front heel, but at the very least it should be well up in your stance. I just moved my ball position up and am hitting the ball not only longer, but straighter with my driver.

What is your ball position now?
 

clg82

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That would have more to do with ball position, i.e. how far forward or backward in the stance, rather than how high you tee the ball. It also depends if you're hitting it straight right, if the ball is starting off straight and then fading right, or if the ball is starting off to your left and then fading right (for a right-handed golfer).

I think generally most people play the ball way too far back in their stance with their driver. As I said, I recently read Sean Fister's Long Drive Bible (he is a 3-time world long driving champion), and he echoed this. He says you should play the ball off your front toe with the driver. Most people will say off your front heel, but at the very least it should be well up in your stance. I just moved my ball position up and am hitting the ball not only longer, but straighter with my driver.

What is your ball position now?
My current ball position is as you said the heel of my front foot maybe I should have it at my front toe. But then in turn wouldnt that make my reach longer to get the club to the ball?
 

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Holy threadjacking, Batman! :D

Although pretty close to the topic, and informative!

Myself, I use the TomahawX tees with depth control, so always get the same tee height. Have both the 2 1/4" and 2 3/4" versions.
 

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I tee it high when hitting driver, low when Im hitting 3-wood, when hitting a hybrid or iron I tee it so that its just barely off the ground.
 

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