Which is more important - keeping lead arm straight or trail elbow close/tucked to body?
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This is not the drill thread and what he's describing is more of a feel, but it does apply to the conversation.
What he's describing is the feel l'm using now. The jury is still out on how effective it will be but it seems better for me. My elbow is not touching my torso, but this feel prevents it from getting behind my ribs on the downswing.
Lane, don't you think there are plenty of great players who don't have to exaggerate this move as much as Hogan did?
What he's describing is the feel l'm using now. The jury is still out on how effective it will be but it seems better for me. My elbow is not touching my torso, but this feel prevents it from getting behind my ribs on the downswing.
Lane, don't you think there are plenty of great players who don't have to exaggerate this move as much as Hogan did?
WILDTHING
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Imho , his right elbow is not close to his right hip in the very first of those 3 images in the downswing. Maybe he's referring to the right elbow being closer to the hip area during the mid-late downswing.
I wonder if this much of this discussion is a matter of semantics. What I mean is that how many instructors tell their student to keep their elbow connected? The only suggestion I've heard is to keep the upper part of the arm better connected, not the elbow.
No Sir - it is and has been an essential fundamental of golf since the game began. It always will be. As I have so often stated , the * dominant hand * controls the right elbow position Hogan illustrates in this drawing. Human genetics dictate that despite many who deny those FACTS . it is imperative that the right hand and right arm come down lower in order for the good golfer to strike the ball from inside. If the arc of the right hand and arm does not stay inside and lower than the arc of the left hand and arm during the DS the player will be a high hdcp. lesser player .
That is why this implement called a golf club Is designed at 60-64 degree or more angle and all great players shaft angle to the ground is approx. the same - 49- 52 degrees ( maybe slight differences in some ) regardless of how they lift the shaft back . Control by the players * dominant hands * is the ONLY means for this to happen .
Thanks for your reply .
Good luck !
JonMai1 —- neither advice is incorrect. Would it be reasonable to assume that if the right arm was connected to the right side the elbow might be connected also ? Last time I checked mine was . What is lacking is a basic knowledge of human genetics . How the body is structured. You can lock / glue your upper right arm and elbow to your right hip area and your dominant hands will still be able to roll over , turn down and ruin that great golf shot you envisioned. That is what must be avoided. Takes time and training .
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're asking... I'm not trying to be argumentative (for a change). I can connect the top of my arm tight to my pec and still have my elbow several inches away from my rib cage.
I don't see the elbow connected at the top of the BS on any of the great players. As @WILDTHING pointed out, on the Hogan illustration you posted the elbow moves down, towards and in front of the hip, but it is never connected at the top. Seriously asking.
WILDTHING
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As you can see above , how close your elbow (or upper arm) is to your ribcage area depends on your backswing plane.
How do you find your natural backswing/downswing planes ? You can either do the Mike Adam's biomechanical measurements to work it out or just swing perpetually using the step drills as in the Dr Kwon thread (or maybe the Shawn Clement videos dated as far back as 2008). Imho, the latter is the best most natural way to determine what fits your body the best.
There was an article about Mike Adam measurements on Golfwrx.
Biomechanics and their affect on swing plane – GolfWRX
There was also a free Mike Adams golf digest .pdf somewhere on the web (I'll try and find it).
I can't find the pdf but you can view it in this slide-show below- note there are other variables that might impact your backswing plane like the way your trail elbow bends. Right at the end of the article he says the "trick is not to fight your natural tendencies". That imho suggests that Shawn Clement /Dr Kwon perpetual/continuous motion drills will be the optimum way to determine your backswing/downswing planes and how your right elbow moves and whether the upper arm is connected or not and how close your right elbow is to your ribcage.
COVER STORY: THE RIGHT SWING FOR YOU Find Your Pages 1-9 - Flip PDF Download | FlipHTML5
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JonMai1 - advising someone to have their elbow tucked into their right side / right hip area / side at the top of their BS is absolutely ridiculous, absurd. I cringe when I hear the old advice / myth of putting a towel or handkerchief under their arms . That is the last thing you want to do . However, dropping the hands and entire lever system down at the very start of the DS is critical. This can only be performed by teaching / forcing your dominant hand to stay * palm up * so the trapezius * pulls * back on the large Scapula bone it controls. If left to its normal genetics design it will push out toward the target line and take it’s approx. 28 lbs of hands and arms out with them .I assume you are aware of the consequences of that.
You might notice the right elbow position of the great player , Jim Furyk .I have never seen a player who keeps his right arm so far back behind his torso. He has NO choice if he wants to hit from inside BC he places the ball closer to his feet than maybe any player in history.
I hope this answers your question and thanks for asking !
Wildthing - I certainly do agree with much of what he says and I think his advice could help many players. Since human genetics is so very important to me and what I believe is the major key to a successful swing I do question the 20% rotation of the shoulders. He could be correct , but I will need to do some research on that. The shoulder joints are most flexible joints in the body .
SC sees the fallacy in some of this swing advice that is detrimental to learning.
As a side note- you might note the position of his right hand when he emulates a softball pitcher - palm facing up just as it should be performed in the golf swing.
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I'd like to emphasize this point. To those of you who are talking about other things beside this topic. STOP IT! If you want to talk about other things, start your own thread. It is poor manners and contrary to this site's policy to keep hijacking these threads. This causes alerts to be sent to THP members who indicated an interest to talk about the topic listed, but may have no interest in the topics you are bringing up. If you don't stop, I'm going to ask one of the moderators to take action.
Luchnia
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I probably should have worked on some drills, but instead I went down and played two sim rounds today and focused more on center chest and keeping left arm straight through the swing. I could not always tell if it was straight through the entire back swing though. I have a tendency to chicken wing my left arm a bit too much at times right at the impact zone. The ball strikes feel better and are more centered.
For whatever reason right now I have to keep my chest centered. I haven't had to do this most of the year, I could just strike the ball well. If I don't keep my chest centered right now, I will struggle to get a good hit. Golf no doubt challenges some of us!
For whatever reason right now I have to keep my chest centered. I haven't had to do this most of the year, I could just strike the ball well. If I don't keep my chest centered right now, I will struggle to get a good hit. Golf no doubt challenges some of us!
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That's a common swing fault, shorting the arms at impact by either bending the elbows, shrugging the shoulders or standing up. Once you understand the fault you know what to correct and it sounds like you nailed it. Ideally what you want is the opposite. Still have some bend on the trail arm at impact as you straighten it out fully about 45 degrees past impact.
WILDTHING
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He also says that when both hands hold the club , the degree of movement of the shoulders is reduced to nearly nothing (5% ) but I think he's referring to retraction and protraction of each scapula , not their elevation and depression (see image below).
The arms movement seems to be similar to Jim Waldron's 'Arm Swing Illusion' concept.
Wildthing- again this info can be very helpful to many players. He gets many things correct . He is more knowledgeable than most ,although he doesn’t understand the total underlying genetics reasons for them, especially incorrect to ever use the incorrect term * coil the body !* Humans don’t coil . Humans muscles can ONLY * stretch . * The average humans vertebrae will only rotate approx. 25-30 degrees so the rib cage is not allowing you to rotate 90 degrees. That can only come from the rotation / * exchange of arcs* of the hip basin. The left hip rotates around in front of the body in a CW motion while the hip rotates back around in the same CW manner which allows the upper torso to attain its 90 degree turn. Not necessary to even think about this . It is just a natural thing we humans do without thought.
The very MOST IMPORTANT thing occurs in his illustration at 4.57 if the video—— the ** palm facing upward position * of his dominant right hand !!!! He does not key in this , but it is extremely critical to the correct swing and he unknowingly illustrates it to perfection.
I enjoyed you post . Gave you a flag on it .
Some days I have trouble with the trail ( right) elbow gets soft particularly with my 3 wood and I don’t load and transition properly and I top the ball I don’t load long enough and release before my right elbow gets set and end up hitting half a ball
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
I share this as well and I pull my left arm in too much too early resulting in similar problems. This really crept up on me in the late fall and was causing me all sorts of issues off the tee box. I have been working on it daily with the sim and now things are looking better and my distances and ball strikes with my woods are close to normal.
I was back to hitting my woods from 200 to 240 the last few days which really felt good. I will need to get out on the course to make sure I can replicate my sim shots. The on course world is very different, but the swing should basically be the same.
I don't know what is more important. They both seem pretty darn important. I attempt to keep my lead arm straight but not locked (creates tension), and my lead elbow looks like the Tiger pic above - away but still close to the body. I don't tuck my trail elbow as a first move - no. I'm doing the Dr. Kwon dance.
Acesteve
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This thread in its early life got me to think they are both important and then I started to think why don't both happen more naturally. what came to me was my grip was not ideal. So I had a thought, went out and tried a few things in the garage, then the driving range and now the course for a couple of weeks.
something happened on my first range session that has not happened in a repeated fashion in my long history of golf. that right hand started firing involuntarily somewhere at the bottom of my swing and it whips through the ball. totally involuntary- just feels like it is pulled into swing. The key is before that point my trail right hand is very passive. if my trail hand is active, I don't get the involuntary whipping.
I was able to play with this grip for the second time last Thursday. Driver was not my best but iron play and fairway woods easily the best day of ball striking in 30+ years up until about 14. On about 16 I started looking and realized I was reverting to my old grip as I'd gotten comfortable with something that is far from groved into my swing.
I've got no idea what a swing feels like to a great golfer but the observation I've made helps me understand how some of the guys on TV make what look like do nothing swings that really strike the ball well.
something happened on my first range session that has not happened in a repeated fashion in my long history of golf. that right hand started firing involuntarily somewhere at the bottom of my swing and it whips through the ball. totally involuntary- just feels like it is pulled into swing. The key is before that point my trail right hand is very passive. if my trail hand is active, I don't get the involuntary whipping.
I was able to play with this grip for the second time last Thursday. Driver was not my best but iron play and fairway woods easily the best day of ball striking in 30+ years up until about 14. On about 16 I started looking and realized I was reverting to my old grip as I'd gotten comfortable with something that is far from groved into my swing.
I've got no idea what a swing feels like to a great golfer but the observation I've made helps me understand how some of the guys on TV make what look like do nothing swings that really strike the ball well.
