There is no such thing as a gun show loop hole, and you can't just buy a gun online and have it shipped to you. What you want to do is insert the government into a private transaction between two citizens, regardless of how or where they connect. If someone buys a gun online, they have to have it shipped to me, a Federal Firearms Licensee, and I conduct the background check through FDLE and maintain the paperwork recording the transaction and maintain a log of all firearms that pass through my business. Even as a non-licensee, its already illegal for Joe Schmoe to sell a gun to a person he thinks might be a felon or intends to cause harm with it.

Lets say that law had passed after Connecticut and now you had to pay the government for a background check if two brothers were to conduct a transaction. Let's say for instance, the shooter from Las Vegas and his brother. By all accounts, the shooter would have passed any background check conducted. Now let's see the same transaction between those same two brothers right now. Brother B had no inclination that his brother, the shooter, had any ill intentions and knew he had no criminal record. So if one was selling a firearm to his brother, it would still be perfectly legal.

By the way, who conducts this new mental check people want to add to firearm purchases? Let's recall the last bill that wanted to "ban mentally unstable" people, and people on the terrorist watch list. Retirees who used the SSA to help manage their finances would have been considered incompetent. There would be no notification that you were deemed unfit, and there was no recourse to challenge it. As for the terrorist watch list, there were small children on it, there were completely law abiding citizens on it, and come to think of it, there may have even been some legislators on it. There was no way to know if you were put on the list, and there was no recourse to challenge your addition to the list. That bill grossly eliminated due process at every turn, and that's why it didn't pass.

Now let's talk about silencers. The most effective silencer on the quietest .22lr gun is still 115dB, that's louder than a car horn, a jet turbine at takeoff power from 200 feet and a riveting machine. They're already legal ownership and use in 37 states, and according to the FBI and ATF are so rarely used in crimes, the data is inconsequential. What the new bill would do is remove them from the purview of the NFA branch. This would remove the $200 tax per item and the ten month wait for the ATF to process the paperwork. They would be transferred by dealers on a form 4473, which is the same form used to transfer all title I firearms, and a background check would be performed. So silencers would still be under the same regulations as a shotgun, handgun or any other firearm.

Did you know that you're like 600 times more likely to be killed by your doctor than a gun? They give it a cute name, "medical misadventure", to make it seem like its was a fun that that got a little out of hand. You're also more likely to be killed by your toilet than by gun violence.
 
I wish there was a way to just destroy any and all automatic weapons outside of the Military. They are too powerful and IMO go way beyond what someone needs to defend themselves. Hearing the footage of the gun just ripping off clip after clip into a helpless crowd sickens me to my core.

That said, I know that ship has sailed. I know that no matter the gun it's the whackjob at the trigger who is the real killer. But why make it so easy for them?
 
Vegas Guys Okay?

i know there's a lot of misinformation out there, so take this with a grain of salt but i thought i read he used his girlfriend/roommate's identification to purchase some of the guns. and he also modified some of the guns to be fully automatic. maybe there's a way to legislate the identification thing.

iirc in florida you have to present more than one form of valid id to purchase a gun, and those are used to perform a background check. then you have to bring those exact forms of id with you when you come back to pick up the gun along with other prescribed paperwork. what i don't know is whether that applies to all firearms, or just handguns.
I am not as up to speed on stuff as I used to be but I'm 99.9999% that's illegal. And if that's what happened the gun store owner who sold guns that way should be in jail.



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Last edited:
I am not as up to speed on stuff as she used to be but I'm 99.9999% that's illegal. And if that's what happened the gun store owner who sold guns that way should be in jail.

Modifying semi-autos to be fully auto is definitely u



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, when you are buying a gun it asks you specifically if you are buying for someone else. And if the answer is yes then they won't sell to you. Kulbrick can correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: and if you flat out use someone else's ID that is definitely a federal crime.
 
“The only thing that we've asked for is that people would just read the bill. It's a criminal and mental background check strictly at gun shows and online sales," Manchin told Fox News Sunday host Chris Wallace on April 28, 2013. "I've said this: If you're a law-abiding gun owner, you'll love this bill."

It happened because both of those senators were incorrect. There is no gun show loop hole. All guns sold through gun shows have to utilize the ATF's form 4473 and require an immediate phoned in NICS background check unless the person has already had a background check that gives them the option to skip a second (dealer, NFA item, etc.). Anyone doing otherwise is breaking a law already in place and no new law would prevent that.

That being said, people have been killing each other long before the invention of guns. So why would anyone think if they could magically take all guns in the world and melt them down that homicides would stop?
 
I wish there was a way to just destroy any and all automatic weapons outside of the Military. They are too powerful and IMO go way beyond what someone needs to defend themselves. Hearing the footage of the gun just ripping off clip after clip into a helpless crowd sickens me to my core.

That said, I know that ship has sailed. I know that no matter the gun it's the whackjob at the trigger who is the real killer. But why make it so easy for them?

All it takes to make a semi-automatic rifle into an automatic rifle is a file. Very rarely is an illegal automatic weapon something that was originally manufactured as an automatic. It was made with home gunsmith skills that isn't exactly rocket surgery. Thanks to the internet, you can find out how to make an automatic rifle online on page 1 of a Google search.
 
There is no such thing as a gun show loop hole, and you can't just buy a gun online and have it shipped to you. What you want to do is insert the government into a private transaction between two citizens, regardless of how or where they connect. If someone buys a gun online, they have to have it shipped to me, a Federal Firearms Licensee, and I conduct the background check through FDLE and maintain the paperwork recording the transaction and maintain a log of all firearms that pass through my business. Even as a non-licensee, its already illegal for Joe Schmoe to sell a gun to a person he thinks might be a felon or intends to cause harm with it.

Lets say that law had passed after Connecticut and now you had to pay the government for a background check if two brothers were to conduct a transaction. Let's say for instance, the shooter from Las Vegas and his brother. By all accounts, the shooter would have passed any background check conducted. Now let's see the same transaction between those same two brothers right now. Brother B had no inclination that his brother, the shooter, had any ill intentions and knew he had no criminal record. So if one was selling a firearm to his brother, it would still be perfectly legal.

By the way, who conducts this new mental check people want to add to firearm purchases? Let's recall the last bill that wanted to "ban mentally unstable" people, and people on the terrorist watch list. Retirees who used the SSA to help manage their finances would have been considered incompetent. There would be no notification that you were deemed unfit, and there was no recourse to challenge it. As for the terrorist watch list, there were small children on it, there were completely law abiding citizens on it, and come to think of it, there may have even been some legislators on it. There was no way to know if you were put on the list, and there was no recourse to challenge your addition to the list. That bill grossly eliminated due process at every turn, and that's why it didn't pass.

Now let's talk about silencers. The most effective silencer on the quietest .22lr gun is still 115dB, that's louder than a car horn, a jet turbine at takeoff power from 200 feet and a riveting machine. They're already legal ownership and use in 37 states, and according to the FBI and ATF are so rarely used in crimes, the data is inconsequential. What the new bill would do is remove them from the purview of the NFA branch. This would remove the $200 tax per item and the ten month wait for the ATF to process the paperwork. They would be transferred by dealers on a form 4473, which is the same form used to transfer all title I firearms, and a background check would be performed. So silencers would still be under the same regulations as a shotgun, handgun or any other firearm.

Did you know that you're like 600 times more likely to be killed by your doctor than a gun? They give it a cute name, "medical misadventure", to make it seem like its was a fun that that got a little out of hand. You're also more likely to be killed by your toilet than by gun violence.
I agree that the issue with "silencers" and "suppressors" appears to be a non-issue because in real life they are nothing like you see in the movies. EXCEPT, my concern is whether or not they would hamper police from responding quickly. I read something that said that a suppressor makes it harder for LEO to track the exact location of a shooter. If that's baloney, I say pass the suppressor legislation.

On the other hand, I think we need to revist bump-stocks/slide fires/ and trigger cranks. I view these as loopholes to the fully automatic laws, and really allow someone to increase their rate of fire. They may reduce accuracy, but when you're shooting fish in a barrel accuracy hardly matters.

Yes, I'm more likely to die at the hands of my doctor, and they're heavily insured and licensed/registered because of it. They can also be brought before a board if their mental health/activity poses a threat and lose their ability to practice medicine. So perhaps we need to discuss a national registry, and allow for the revocation of firearms based on certain criteria.

I don't want to ban guns, but I think to just say "This is the price of freedom." and leave it at that is nonsense. We should be able to have a sensible discussion on this issue.
 
There is no such thing as a gun show loop hole, and you can't just buy a gun online and have it shipped to you. What you want to do is insert the government into a private transaction between two citizens, regardless of how or where they connect. If someone buys a gun online, they have to have it shipped to me, a Federal Firearms Licensee, and I conduct the background check through FDLE and maintain the paperwork recording the transaction and maintain a log of all firearms that pass through my business. Even as a non-licensee, its already illegal for Joe Schmoe to sell a gun to a person he thinks might be a felon or intends to cause harm with it.

Lets say that law had passed after Connecticut and now you had to pay the government for a background check if two brothers were to conduct a transaction. Let's say for instance, the shooter from Las Vegas and his brother. By all accounts, the shooter would have passed any background check conducted. Now let's see the same transaction between those same two brothers right now. Brother B had no inclination that his brother, the shooter, had any ill intentions and knew he had no criminal record. So if one was selling a firearm to his brother, it would still be perfectly legal.

By the way, who conducts this new mental check people want to add to firearm purchases? Let's recall the last bill that wanted to "ban mentally unstable" people, and people on the terrorist watch list. Retirees who used the SSA to help manage their finances would have been considered incompetent. There would be no notification that you were deemed unfit, and there was no recourse to challenge it. As for the terrorist watch list, there were small children on it, there were completely law abiding citizens on it, and come to think of it, there may have even been some legislators on it. There was no way to know if you were put on the list, and there was no recourse to challenge your addition to the list. That bill grossly eliminated due process at every turn, and that's why it didn't pass.

Now let's talk about silencers. The most effective silencer on the quietest .22lr gun is still 115dB, that's louder than a car horn, a jet turbine at takeoff power from 200 feet and a riveting machine. They're already legal ownership and use in 37 states, and according to the FBI and ATF are so rarely used in crimes, the data is inconsequential. What the new bill would do is remove them from the purview of the NFA branch. This would remove the $200 tax per item and the ten month wait for the ATF to process the paperwork. They would be transferred by dealers on a form 4473, which is the same form used to transfer all title I firearms, and a background check would be performed. So silencers would still be under the same regulations as a shotgun, handgun or any other firearm.

Did you know that you're like 600 times more likely to be killed by your doctor than a gun? They give it a cute name, "medical misadventure", to make it seem like its was a fun that that got a little out of hand. You're also more likely to be killed by your toilet than by gun violence.

Okay, so you are in the "do nothing" camp. That's your right. From your post, I assume you also have an economic interest in this issue. If so, bias is apparent.

But I don't see "Death by Toilet" in these stats...

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-death-statistics-assault-mass-shootings-accidents-2017-10

"Assaults by firearm kill about 11,000 people in the US each year, which translates to a roughly 1-in-370 lifetime chance of death from gun violence. That's almost 50% more likely than the lifetime odds of dying while riding inside a car, truck, or van.

These measures also suggest Americans are more likely to die from gun violence than the combined risks of drowning, fire and smoke, stabbing, choking on food, airplane crashes, animal attacks, and forces of nature."

The argument that limiting guns would not have prevented this death may be true or not - who knows what would have happened if everyone got together and passed laws that protected gun owners and non-gun owners from ... guns. When people work together, they can do extraordinary things. When they bicker and argue and don't attempt to solve an issue or pretend an issue does not exist, nothing is done and people die. I guess the price of gun ownership is high, but not high enough to do anything to help solve the issue. Because it's an issue ... Noticed that gun co stocks went up yesterday ... seems to occur when people think gun control legislation might take effect. The NRA scared the heck out of people during the Obama years and gun sales soared. Such a free society ... just out of control.
 
All it takes to make a semi-automatic rifle into an automatic rifle is a file. Very rarely is an illegal automatic weapon something that was originally manufactured as an automatic. It was made with home gunsmith skills that isn't exactly rocket surgery. Thanks to the internet, you can find out how to make an automatic rifle online on page 1 of a Google search.
That's too bad. I don't pretend to have a high knowledge when it comes to guns outside of a basic hunting rifle.

Seems we are left with a couple tragic choices:
1) Do nothing, and mourn the tragedy when it happens again.
2) Do something, and mourn the tragedy when it happens again.
 
I agree that the issue with "silencers" and "suppressors" appears to be a non-issue because in real life they are nothing like you see in the movies. EXCEPT, my concern is whether or not they would hamper police from responding quickly. I read something that said that a suppressor makes it harder for LEO to track the exact locaiton of a shooter. If that's baloney, I say pass the suppressor legislation.

On the other hand, I think we need to revist bump-stocks/slide fires/ and trigger cranks. I view these as loopholes to the fully automatic laws, and really allow someone to increase their rate of fire. They may reduce accuracy, but when you're shooting fish in a barrel accuracy hardly matters.

Yes, I'm more likely to die at the hands of my doctor, and they're heavily insured and licensed/registered because of it. They can also be brought before a board if their mental health/activity poses a threat and lose their ability to practice medicine. So perhaps we need to discuss a national registry, and allow for the revocation of firearms based on certain criteria.
A national registry of what? All the guns I lost in a tragic boating accident? Good luck.

As for tracking shots of guns with silencers, if its a single shot, it can disguise the report enough that you may not be able to pinpoint where exactly the shot came from if you're in an urban environment. Once a couple more rounds are moving, it does little to mask your location.
 
Yes, I'm more likely to die at the hands of my doctor, and they're heavily insured and licensed/registered because of it. They can also be brought before a board if their mental health/activity poses a threat and lose their ability to practice medicine. So perhaps we need to discuss a national registry, and allow for the revocation of firearms based on certain criteria.

You know there are plenty of countries that agree with you. Perhaps you should consider a move?

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
 
You know there are plenty of countries that agree with you. Perhaps you should consider a move?

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
*plonk*
 
Okay, so you are in the "do nothing" camp. That's your right. From your post, I assume you also have an economic interest in this issue. If so, bias is apparent.

But I don't see "Death by Toilet" in these stats...

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-death-statistics-assault-mass-shootings-accidents-2017-10

"Assaults by firearm kill about 11,000 people in the US each year, which translates to a roughly 1-in-370 lifetime chance of death from gun violence. That's almost 50% more likely than the lifetime odds of dying while riding inside a car, truck, or van.

These measures also suggest Americans are more likely to die from gun violence than the combined risks of drowning, fire and smoke, stabbing, choking on food, airplane crashes, animal attacks, and forces of nature."

The argument that limiting guns would not have prevented this death may be true or not - who knows what would have happened if everyone got together and passed laws that protected gun owners and non-gun owners from ... guns. When people work together, they can do extraordinary things. When they bicker and argue and don't attempt to solve an issue or pretend an issue does not exist, nothing is done and people die. I guess the price of gun ownership is high, but not high enough to do anything to help solve the issue. Because it's an issue ... Noticed that gun co stocks went up yesterday ... seems to occur when people think gun control legislation might take effect. The NRA scared the heck out of people during the Obama years and gun sales soared. Such a free society ... just out of control.
If having a side business that barely pays for itself is an economic interest, than yes, I have one. As for being in the do nothing camp, that's not entirely accurate, I'm in the why do you always have to try to do something that isn't going to have any impact on people that want to break the law anyway camp. Save from magically compiling all firearms in the world, legal and illegal, and melting them down, no law will keep bad people from doing bad things. Even if you could sprinkle some pixie dust and haul all the world's guns off into space on a unicorn, it would only last until some enterprising or skillful person built another one. It would be a good few days, though. Barely anyone would be murdered in Chicago. Just think about it, back to the time before guns, when people didn't kill other people with bows and arrows spears, knives, swords, rocks, their bare hands or any other infinite possible ways of killing another person if they were set on it.
 
There is no such thing as a gun show loop hole, and you can't just buy a gun online and have it shipped to you. What you want to do is insert the government into a private transaction between two citizens, regardless of how or where they connect. If someone buys a gun online, they have to have it shipped to me, a Federal Firearms Licensee, and I conduct the background check through FDLE and maintain the paperwork recording the transaction and maintain a log of all firearms that pass through my business. Even as a non-licensee, its already illegal for Joe Schmoe to sell a gun to a person he thinks might be a felon or intends to cause harm with it.

Lets say that law had passed after Connecticut and now you had to pay the government for a background check if two brothers were to conduct a transaction. Let's say for instance, the shooter from Las Vegas and his brother. By all accounts, the shooter would have passed any background check conducted. Now let's see the same transaction between those same two brothers right now. Brother B had no inclination that his brother, the shooter, had any ill intentions and knew he had no criminal record. So if one was selling a firearm to his brother, it would still be perfectly legal.

By the way, who conducts this new mental check people want to add to firearm purchases? Let's recall the last bill that wanted to "ban mentally unstable" people, and people on the terrorist watch list. Retirees who used the SSA to help manage their finances would have been considered incompetent. There would be no notification that you were deemed unfit, and there was no recourse to challenge it. As for the terrorist watch list, there were small children on it, there were completely law abiding citizens on it, and come to think of it, there may have even been some legislators on it. There was no way to know if you were put on the list, and there was no recourse to challenge your addition to the list. That bill grossly eliminated due process at every turn, and that's why it didn't pass.

Now let's talk about silencers. The most effective silencer on the quietest .22lr gun is still 115dB, that's louder than a car horn, a jet turbine at takeoff power from 200 feet and a riveting machine. They're already legal ownership and use in 37 states, and according to the FBI and ATF are so rarely used in crimes, the data is inconsequential. What the new bill would do is remove them from the purview of the NFA branch. This would remove the $200 tax per item and the ten month wait for the ATF to process the paperwork. They would be transferred by dealers on a form 4473, which is the same form used to transfer all title I firearms, and a background check would be performed. So silencers would still be under the same regulations as a shotgun, handgun or any other firearm.

Did you know that you're like 600 times more likely to be killed by your doctor than a gun? They give it a cute name, "medical misadventure", to make it seem like its was a fun that that got a little out of hand. You're also more likely to be killed by your toilet than by gun violence.

It may well be true that I am more likely to be killed by my doctor instead of a handgun but I don't think that matters to the folks who love all of the dead in Vegas and those injured. These are acts that must be stopped and they all have guns as the common thread.
I am not a gun owner and I guess I finally hit the wall with all of this senseless killing.I appreciate your information but something has to change.
 
It may well be true that I am more likely to be killed by my doctor instead of a handgun but I don't think that matters to the folks who love all of the dead in Vegas and those injured. These are acts that must be stopped and they all have guns as the common thread.
I am not a gun owner and I guess I finally hit the wall with all of this senseless killing.I appreciate your information but something has to change.

Can you explain to me your line of thinking? People that use guns to murder others are criminals because they are breaking the law. How would new laws stop them if the current ones don't already?

I'm failing to see how the idea of stricter gun control appeals to the logical mind. In my mind that line of thinking is based on emotion and not logic.
 
Yes, when you are buying a gun it asks you specifically if you are buying for someone else. And if the answer is yes then they won't sell to you. Kulbrick can correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: and if you flat out use someone else's ID that is definitely a federal crime.
You're right. I will correct you.

Buying a firearm for someone else who may be prohibited, is called a straw purchase. If I have any funny feeling about a transfer, I can end it for any reason. Even if they lie on the form and answer everything the way it should be, I can still tell a guy I don't like the color shirt he has on and send him on his way without the firearm.

You have to present ID, and it has to have an address on it that matches the address you list on the form. Secondary ID can be listed on the form if the address differs, or if you just feel like having another form of ID recorded. Lying on a form 4473 is a crime, and they literally have all the evidence on the form, their lie, their name and the address where you can find them, so lots of people are arrested for it all the time. By lots of people all the time, I mean practically no one. Ever.

That's not to say there aren't people denied during background checks that shouldn't be. There's an appeal process, and they sort it out with an in depth look. I have a customer who has a hold put on every time he buys a gun, because some guy somewhere with the same name and the same birthday is a bad dude. They don't have the same SSN, but they still put the wait on it to err on the side of caution.
 
I'm for guns, but I'm not going to sit here and tell everyone to go out and get a gun, I know they're not for everyone. Why do people against guns insist on telling me to get rid of mine to be left defenseless like them?
 
Seems we are left with a couple tragic choices:
1) Do nothing, and mourn the tragedy when it happens again.
2) Do something, and mourn the tragedy when it happens again.

Unfortunately, this is the case. I would agree that we must take certain actions, but gun control isn't it.
 
Can you explain to me your line of thinking? People that use guns to murder others are criminals because they are breaking the law. How would new laws stop them if the current ones don't already?

I'm failing to see how the idea of stricter gun control appeals to the logical mind. In my mind that line of thinking is based on emotion and not logic.

To be honest I don't know if I am being logical. This event has cut to my emotions. I fear that my three college age kids will be in a similar situation. But here is how I view the issue. We both apparently love golf. I have to have a set of clubs to play.I guess some folks might have an extra set but one is plenty.If you want a gun I understand and don't care. But do you or anyone need the number of guns that this guy had. And should they be able to kill something 400 yds away and shoot so many people so quickly.And my sense of it is he is not alone. I don't care to debate because I care only about innocent people not being killed. Again, he cant do that with his bare hands. But he can by sitting up in his hotel room and shooting away.
 
To be honest I don't know if I am being logical. This event has cut to my emotions. I fear that my three college age kids will be in a similar situation. But here is how I view the issue. We both apparently love golf. I have to have a set of clubs to play.I guess some folks might have an extra set but one is plenty.If you want a gun I understand and don't care. But do you or anyone need the number of guns that this guy had. And should they be able to kill something 400 yds away and shoot so many people so quickly.And my sense of it is he is not alone. I don't care to debate because I care only about innocent people not being killed. Again, he cant do that with his bare hands. But he can by sitting up in his hotel room and shooting away.
Why do you need 14 clubs?

Many guns perform many different tasks. You won't hunt a quail, hog, or elk with the same weapon. You also wouldn't want to carry any of these to protect yourself.
 
To be honest I don't know if I am being logical. This event has cut to my emotions. I fear that my three college age kids will be in a similar situation. But here is how I view the issue. We both apparently love golf. I have to have a set of clubs to play.I guess some folks might have an extra set but one is plenty.If you want a gun I understand and don't care. But do you or anyone need the number of guns that this guy had. And should they be able to kill something 400 yds away and shoot so many people so quickly.And my sense of it is he is not alone. I don't care to debate because I care only about innocent people not being killed. Again, he cant do that with his bare hands. But he can by sitting up in his hotel room and shooting away.

So all golfers should only be allowed one set of clubs at a time? Where do you draw the line? Who gets to decide where that line is?

I own guns and only have what I need for specific purposes. Not because I feel some moral right to do so, but because I choose to. I don't presume that others should have do the same just because I do.
 
I wish there was a way to just destroy any and all automatic weapons outside of the Military. They are too powerful and IMO go way beyond what someone needs to defend themselves. Hearing the footage of the gun just ripping off clip after clip into a helpless crowd sickens me to my core.

That said, I know that ship has sailed. I know that no matter the gun it's the whackjob at the trigger who is the real killer. But why make it so easy for them?

Just to make sure it's clarified, anything fully auto produced after 1986 is for Military/Police use only. Joe Schmoe can't legally purchase anything made after 1986. Pre 86- requires a class 3 license granted by the ATF after what seems like an eternity and extremely costly endeavor.
 
All, it was great that everyone wanted to check-in with THPers in the Vegas area as well as those of us from THP and Wilson Staff who were in town at the time. I'd ask that the gun discussion is kept in the guns thread or another thread. It's an interesting and sometimes sensitive topic, but one which this country needs to have (and just for the record, I am neither a proponent of highly restrictive gun control laws, nor am I OK with the way the current laws are enforced and/or written, depending on the state and locale). The topic can be as divisive as some others, especially at a time like this, and it is better housed in the appropriate thread, since we have hopefully established that THPers in the Vegas area are OK.
 
Why do you need 14 clubs?

Many guns perform many different tasks. You won't hunt a quail, hog, or elk with the same weapon. You also wouldn't want to carry any of these to protect yourself.

That question implies that you've seen me play. I probably only NEED a few of them.The rules say you can have that many and that's the only reason.
 
So all golfers should only be allowed one set of clubs at a time? Where do you draw the line? Who gets to decide where that line is?

I own guns and only have what I need for specific purposes. Not because I feel some moral right to do so, but because I choose to. I don't presume that others should have do the same just because I do.

I think the line has to be drawn when it is evident that a single individual has an arsenal of weapons. I know nothing about guns but I heard the sound on tv of those shots. It was so rapid. I cant imagine you need that to down a deer. You are talking about hunting and self protection and as I have said I get it and respect your rights. But automatic weapons that can mow down people. Where are their rights.
 
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