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Gambling While Using Handicap

blugold said:
Then the scorecards are not following the USGA handicap manual
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I went and looked at a number of scorecards I have from different courses and am trying to do my best to remember if I have ever played a course where the scorecard didnt have the holes handicapped on the card. For example (and this is the home of the South Texas Section of the PGA)
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So maybe I am missing your point or reference
 
caeleric said:
that's actually exactly why the system exists. 17-1(b)(ii) - "The first handicap stroke should be allocated so that this stroke is most useful in matches between players of almost equal ability, such as matches involving players with a Course Handicap of 0 and 1, 10 and 11, or 29 and 30. In such matches, the first handicap stroke will be of the greatest importance as an equalizer to the player receiving the stroke."

full disclosure: blugold has twice to my memory posted about how the number 1 handicap hole isn't the hardest hole (or at least shouldn't be). or maybe said differently, it's not a foregone conclusion that the number 1 hole is the hardest hole. after talking about with this with several golfers, we all agreed that he was wrong. in this thread he mentioned the handicap manual, so I read it and wouldn't you know he's right! it makes sense, and I owe him a thank you for the edumacation.


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I can have moments of glory. They are few, far between, and fleeting.

Johnny Hack said:
I went and looked at a number of scorecards I have from different courses and am trying to do my best to remember if I have ever played a course where the scorecard didnt have the holes handicapped on the card. For example (and this is the home of the South Texas Section of the PGA)
trad.jpg

cypress.jpg


So maybe I am missing your point or reference
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The #1 rated hole is not supposed to be the hardest hole on the course. It is supposed to be the hole with the greatest disparity between a low handicap golfer and a high handicap golfer and their respective scores. It should be the hole that the higher cap needs the most help to halve the hole.

http://www.golfwisconsin.com/articles/article.cfm?ID=2049

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Unveiling The Hole Handicap Mystery

The Smartest Person in The Room...

By Nick Stephens



This past winter we changed all our handicap holes and re-printed our scorecards. After 10 years and tons of historical data entered by our players, we can actually see where the strokes are needed. If you want to be the smartest person in the room next time you're in a handicap discussion, say this: "Handicap Holes are NOT a list of holes from hardest to easiest! Allocating handicap strokes is a method to Equalize, not to give an Advantage to one player over the other. A stroke should be given on a hole where higher handicap players would need "help" to halve the hole with a better player".

In order to figure out where the strokes should fall, we need to calculate the holes with the greatest differential between good players and average players, not the holes that are the most difficult. So that's what we did. We took the hole-by-hole scores of Group A (players of handicap 8 or lower). We averaged all of them. Then we took Group B (players of handicap 14-24), we took their hole-by-hole score and averaged them. When you compare the two lists, the hole with the greatest differential in score averages, becomes your number one handicap hole. This is the hole where the average player needs more help. That hole is #3. Good players (average 5.23) can knock it on in two, average players (average 6.28) can hit in the water 2 or 3 times. They need help. Is it the "hardest hole?" No, but it is the hole of greatest differential. Let's take #15 the par 3. It used to have a handicap of 4, now it's 16. You say, "but that hole is hard". Yes, it's hard for everyone. Good players average 3.69, average players average 4.04, there is hardly a differential, so no one should get a stroke. We think this change will be really good for future competitions out here, and the changes will definitely make future matches more strategic.

Eric and I would be very happy to explain more of this process if you are interested. We ask going forward, that all players who play here enter hole-by-hole information when posting your handicaps. This provides the data to make future adjustments to ensure equity.
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Atxpkrgolf said:
the point above about a 4 HC playing a 5 I would never give or take a stroke here. In fact, I'd say anything within 2 shots should be played straight up and possibly even 3 shots. Handicap revisions happen every 2 weeks I believe and anything within 2 strokes is practically the same thing IMO.
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Actually when just wagering with friends, I'd go along with this. While Johnny Hack is wrong in his belief about stroke allocations, at the same time, if he was playing in a flighted tournament, a 5 cap would very likely be playing in the same flight with that 4 cap and would be playing straight up within the flight.

Another thing that must be looked at is how one's index translates to course handicap. I can see a case where a 4.7 and a 5.2 could both be a 5 for course handicap, or maybe even a 6 or 7 if the course is sufficiently difficult.

When you read the handicap manual, you see that there is a logical reason for wheeling off the low handicap. My club tried the full allocation for one season in our match play competitions, but went back to the USGA advised method of wheeling because of skewed results.
 
I understand and thanks for the addendum you posted , but how do we know which courses have done this in the way the folks at Royal St. Patricks have done? Thus my point to the fact that everyone should just get their full be they low or high and play as posted on the score card, and as some have said here there is also as you know an extraordinary amount of "Sand Bagging" out there so how do we fit that into the equation as well, the answer to these questions eludes me so I will always strive to play full and to the posted hcps on the score cards as it will probably even out in the long run. Thanks Blugold for your valuable and dead on input and comments! (not being sarcastic)
 
Johnny Hack said:
how do we know which courses have done this in the way the folks at Royal St. Patricks have done?
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how do we know? good question, and I'm not sure. but I can say that the post blu made is in line with 17-2, which it seems is attempting to remove the subjectivity of the committee's assignment and apply objective data. interestingly, 17-1 wants you to rank holes based on players of similar handicaps, while 17-2 wants to rank holes based on how high caps need strokes when playing low caps, although 17-2 does require that the committee still give consideration to 17-1. this is the first time I've ever read any of this, so it would be really interesting to hear from someone who was on a committee and has actually gone through this.


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caeleric said:
how do we know? good question, and I'm not sure. but I can say that the post blu made is in line with 17-2, which it seems is attempting to remove the subjectivity of the committee's assignment and apply objective data. interestingly, 17-1 wants you to rank holes based on players of similar handicaps, while 17-2 wants to rank holes based on how high caps need strokes when playing low caps, although 17-2 does require that the committee still give consideration to 17-1. this is the first time I've ever read any of this, so it would be really interesting to hear from someone who was on a committee and has actually gone through this.


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I think that it has a lot to do with how will the course is to do the work necessary.

It's funny because it isn't hard, or time consuming really. It's expensive to reprint scorecards. However, it is important to note that a handicap stroke is designed to be an equalizer, not a decider.

On the flipside, everybody wants to say how well they did on the #1. It sounds really sexy to say that you recorded a par or a birdie on the #1.
 
Made it thru 7 holes before we had a rain out doing this today. Not a big fan of it , but to each there own. Handicaps should be used only for flighting in tourneys and personal achievement. I can see giving people a few shots for 18... But when you start giving 2 or more per hole it just doesn't work well. I can see handicapping money games by playing different tees or even matching up in teams. But one on one isn't my cup of tea
 
Hox30 said:
The reason low cappers or scratch golfers don't like giving strokes, is because it is much easier for a high HC to shoot below there HC than it is for a scratch golfer to. The high HC just has more wiggle room. That being said I don't mind doing it. Gambling on the course for small amounts makes the game more competitive thus more fun for me.
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The other reason low handicap players don't like giving strokes is most grew up playing matches that were never based on handicap. From age 15 through my mid twenties I only played a handful of matches where handicaps were used.
 
Me and some friends have our own "leauge" during the season where we can win or lose beer towards each other which will be payed out at a big party at the end of the season. We use hcp and for us it works well. Sandbagging of hcp would not work in that gang, it would be noted directly and that person would definatelly be teased quite a bit. Our hcp span is appr 8 points between highest and lowest hcp
 
It's fun if you play with the same group all the time without money anyway. Just keeps it in the mind and makes it worth something even though the stakes are low. We don't play strict rules though, however we ended up calculating the holes it came out pretty evenly and was fun nonetheless.
 
most of the time when/if we play a match, the losers pay the bag guys at the end, so its 5 bucks a man (sometimes $10 depending on the venue) Handicaps are involved but it's never more than a few shot difference
 
if i play with an honest group of friends or in a club or tournament that strictly enforces handicaps, sure, i enjoy it. with these, the competition is usually always close, meaning the matches are decided on the last few holes, and the winner differs from time to time.

and with buddies usually there is a renegotiation of the handicaps at the end of the game to reflect the results of the betting - what we call a money handicap, which starts from the club handicaps we all have, and is adjusted depending on who's winning or losing. if i lose, i earn more strokes, if i win, i give out more strokes.

however, in bigger tourneys, where the policing of the handicap is at doubt, i just enjoy the game, and hope to win a good raffle prize. the bigger the tourney, the lesser my chances of winning, no matter how well i play.
 
tahoebum said:
The other reason low handicap players don't like giving strokes is most grew up playing matches that were never based on handicap. From age 15 through my mid twenties I only played a handful of matches where handicaps were used.
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This is very true to me as well
 
Small money games are fine with me and a handicap. I won't play for big money, it just takes the fun out of it.
I too would rather beat par than take 15 or 20 bucks from someone.
 
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