I think we (MA) go to November 15, which seems about right to me. I can usually play a little bit after that but you start running into really cold mornings and frost delays. Played last week and it could have been September, it was in the 60s.
usga handicap season by state/region or association. interesting but also strange
I think we (MA) go to November 15, which seems about right to me. I can usually play a little bit after that but you start running into really cold mornings and frost delays. Played last week and it could have been September, it was in the 60s.
Well said buddy, I like the sounds of that, here I have 3 days left, but the way the weather has been I could play for a few more weeks in the same conditions!
Spivey
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Not to hijack, but I think that this logic is wrong.
Course weather conditions and temp have no effect on slope or rating (not going to argue whether they should).
And in AZ, where our summers are brutal, winter months bring frost delay, changes in vegetation, snow, etc. and our season is all year.
Closing the season may be more arbitrary than anything else, but likely weather (and golf course maintenance) related.
Up here, our season closes on Nov 15th and resumes on March 1st. I'm guessing it's because everything is wet as hell. But it can be just as wet in October and March-early May sometimes anyways, so the logic is a little iffy.
Also, I kind of agree with Spivey in that weather doesn't affect handicap, so if you play, why should the winter? It's just weather after all. If I play on a wet windy day in the summer or fall, it counts towards my cap even though the course is not playing to its true slope/rating, whereas if I play on a perfect 55* day in January it doesn't, even though the course is arguably playing pretty true to it's slope/rating. Doesn't make any sense.
I'm with Canadan, let's just leave it open all year, whether you get rounds in or not.
Also, I kind of agree with Spivey in that weather doesn't affect handicap, so if you play, why should the winter? It's just weather after all. If I play on a wet windy day in the summer or fall, it counts towards my cap even though the course is not playing to its true slope/rating, whereas if I play on a perfect 55* day in January it doesn't, even though the course is arguably playing pretty true to it's slope/rating. Doesn't make any sense.
I'm with Canadan, let's just leave it open all year, whether you get rounds in or not.
rollin
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I don't feel its any hijack at all. After all, all he conversations are all related to seasonal golf so imo its all good
With due respect I find it funny how sometimes points can be made but then stated not to be argued. Its like wanting to make a point but then wanting to close the thought of any debate out of it. Not sure if that's what you meant there but is what it appears. Apologies if I am wrong
I guess it depends on where in AZ it may or may not make sense. Mountainous and northern vs flats and southern? I don't know I am just guessing. But I did start this thread off saying some of these decisions are indeed interesting and strange. I said that as to imply that some don't seem to make sense so I do agree as some of it is indeed strange. Perhaps some of this is simply "powers-to-be" becoming over zealous and/or simply wanting to make decisions just for sake of doing so which makes them feel important or something. Lets face it, that kind of stuff goes on all the time in many different things But who really knows? I certainly don't.
as for the winter changing the play (rating/slope) of a course? You don't have to debate any further on that but perhaps others find it a good or interesting conversation to do so, so I will add what I think about.
I know on types of courses that have a lot of tall fescue (which 2 of my county courses do) it dies off in the autumn and all winter and they even cut it in the autumn so as to keep it maintained and that it grows in nice again the following year. When its gone, the courses play totally different for the bogey golfer vs when the stuff is there. Simply put it allows for the errant and less than good shots to still be played and also found. This could easily be 4,5,6 strokes and even more in a given round depending on ones HC. Even a singe digit will get away with those couple/few poor hits a round when the stuff is around vs when it isn't. I even argue the point that while in-season the courses should change its slope in the spring and the fall when the fescue is not much a factor because the play is imo just that different and more forgiving. A completely different amount of forgiveness blankets the course in june through august vs what it is during April, may, then also again in September and October.
As for parkland style courses. Leaves everywhere affects a lot of lost balls. Thats a game (or score) changer for certain imo. The rough is (in general with some exception) not the same imo and affects play as its usually easier to get out of and also less balls are lost in it too. I'm sure if I think harder I may come up with a couple more reasons the a given course may play different. They don't have to be major differences imo but even small ones collectively and/or throughout 18 holes can make for a bit of a different course vs the normal in-season golf at the same place. All is needed is a few strokes difference on average for the average person and the rating or slope is then also technically different imo. No? Maybe I make too much of it but I am open to hear differently
Thing is in the winter playing on that 55 degree day in January on that wet furry fairway and slow green things will be different. You're not going to get the roll out on the fairway from your drive so instead of hitting that 8 iron onto the green you're hitting a 6 iron or maybe even a hybrid. So instead of a possible GIR you have a much greater chance of scrambling for pars than you do in the summer. Or if you're not that good you're probably scrambling for bogeys. Handicaps would go up in the winter, then when nice weather hits and conditions improve you start shooting a lot better and under your handicap.
People who didn't play during the winter will be at a disadvantage.... sandbagger. :wink:
People who didn't play during the winter will be at a disadvantage.... sandbagger. :wink:
rollin
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yes but to debate things, the affects can also be just the opposite. Even on a relatively nice 55 degree day which came after a two week period of freezng weather. The ground is very hard if not frozen and the greens can be like cement where nothing holds and be fast as anything and so may the fairways be very hard too. Its basically imo just too unpredictable because Mother nature is too unpredictable.
But I understand in-season has its unpredictability issues as well. Where I am, June or early july with moist plush grasses is very different from the late august burnt dry golf course. But again mother nature doesn't always play it the same. Timely or excessive rains or lack of any of it can often change conditions to be what is not usually the norm for a given month.
So I can see both sides of the argument. However its only because of execptions which are not usually the norm. And I think the in or out season is based on the expected norms and not the exceptions because that's all one can base it on.
Would it be so right or wrong to just count all rounds all year from everywhere? I am not really 100% sure but going back to my last post about the courses being different as per the fescue being there or not does have (at least at those courses) a big impact on ones scores especially the mid and higher cappers.
Haha sandbagger indeed
You are correct, things may be different on that 55 degree day than a perfect day in the summer. But the course will still play easier I'm betting than on a nasty day in the spring or fall, so my point is the same variability could be encountered during the active season.
As for handicaps going up in the winter - yeah they might. Or they might go down, if the course has winter rules in place where you can improve your lie - plus greens are softer in the winter so they're easier to hold. I personally think that if they change in the winter, that's actually a good thing, because it means the handicap system is working. If you're playing your lower summer cap the moment that the inactive season ends, the conditions likely won't be immediately the same as summer, so you'd be better served by having your handicap reflect the current conditions rather than the conditions at the end of the previous season.
Slightly long post, but you know what I mean. I feel it would make your handicap much more accurate on March 1st than if none of your scores counted for 3.5 months.
rollin
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Haha sandbagger indeed
You are correct, things may be different on that 55 degree day than a perfect day in the summer. But the course will still play easier I'm betting than on a nasty day in the spring or fall, so my point is the same variability could be encountered during the active season.
As for handicaps going up in the winter - yeah they might. Or they might go down, if the course has winter rules in place where you can improve your lie - plus greens are softer in the winter so they're easier to hold. I personally think that if they change in the winter, that's actually a good thing, because it means the handicap system is working. If you're playing your lower summer cap the moment that the inactive season ends, the conditions likely won't be immediately the same as summer, so you'd be better served by having your handicap reflect the current conditions rather than the conditions at the end of the previous season.
Slightly long post, but you know what I mean. I feel it would make your handicap much more accurate on March 1st than if none of your scores counted for 3.5 months.
Caps may also go down not just for "winter rues" but because rough could be much thinner and less of it, also things like fescue and weeds are much less and undergrowth too all make for less penalizing and more forgiving play for that bogey player in lets say February even with the correct rules.
I don't know about softer greens in winter is any such given. Often the ground is hard underneath from my experiences causing extra firmness unless your area is in the midst of a significant thaw or unexpected out-of-the norm extra warm spell.
Agree with your first point. The bit about softer greens was more specifically talking about the Pacific Northwest, since myself and InTheRough are both in WA. We don't typically drop below freezing for long here in the winter, but it does tend to rain pretty frequently so the greens often get quite soft.
rollin
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So much for me being (as the tv game show says) "smarter than a 5th grader" lol But I would have thought you guys get pretty darn cold winters there.
Not west of the Cascades. In the mountains and east of them...yeah, it gets pretty freakin cold haha
Living in Utah this isn't a surprise at all. Today there is snow in my backyard, but a 3 hour drive to my parents place in St. George it is sunny and 60º. They are only a few miles from the Arizona border and the weather is typically closer to that than it is up north.
It's nice too because I don't have to travel all that far to be able to play all year long.
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I like all year or 11/15 to 3/1 as the off season. But I agree with all year; and your handicap is what it is regardless of conditions.
Golf 'N Gator
Formally HoosierGolfer
Large area's of the US have no golf during the winter. Just the way it is. Most course's in my area are either closed or soon will be.
Another thing is that on the courses I typically play, they start letting the "first cut" grow out from it's usual short cut to US Open length in October. Then the ground gets too soft to even get a mower in there in November. The "second cut" gets a couple feet long. Basically you're lucky if you're able to find your ball unless you play with a forecaddie. So start playing provisionals and adding penalty strokes, unless you begin playing 4 irons off the tees.
Or do you "tee it forward" in the winter to account for the lack of roll on the fairways? You know, that normal 250 yd drive you hit in the summer that has the 30 yd roll that now has about 2 yds or even zero yd roll if you'd even risk hitting a driver.
And casual water.... or casual ponds on some courses.... do you play out of them? What if the NPR is in the woods? Laugh, but this has happened. We actually had a section of the fairway roped off and a sign "do not play from here - take relief". It was 30 yds long. My ball landed 6 feet from the front edge. NPR was in the woods.... or drop 30 yds back. The ground was just soggy as hell. This was in the spring.
The 7th hole at one course ends up with a forced carry over a casual lake of about 140 yds. (don't forget to wear your muck boots to slog through the water on the cart path). It's a drain field that backs up. There's drain pipes in it going to the river and it has a gravel bed that's covered with grass. You can't hit from it, and it's not a hazard. It's considered an abnormal ground condition. God help you if you end up in it, because the NPR is worse than S&D.
But playing heavily on dormant grass isn't good for the course especially when people are taking divots. The divots don't fill in. If there's some very heavy rains, many courses go to temporary greens in the winter. The temporary green is a 10 x 10 area of fairway with a hole and flag stuck in it. The grass is too long to putt on, so you land in the general area and auto-two-putt, and move on to the next hole. So that hole becomes Par + HC no matter what you scored due to handicapping rules - holes not played under rules of golf. What if the course has 3 or more holes like that? Do you report the round? The USGA says yes. The R&A says no.
Then there's keeping warm. Yes, Rollin' mentioned those frozen fairways. But what about frozen bodies? It's hard to swing a club dressed like Nanuk of the North.
rollin
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well............fwiw I'll be playing tomorrow late "am" to midday. Suppose to be about low 50's but probably more like low 40's in the am however the wind which been very high past couple days is finally suppose to calm down and is why I will be out there. So with sunny skies and only little wind (I hope) I don't really mind the 40's.
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Plus 1 for living in a year round state, never knew that this was such a problem....
Dax
Dax
Our off-season consists of long grass, soaked courses, and slow greens. On courses that don't drain extremely well we usually move up a set of tees because every drive stops where it lands.
For some who hit a low ball the course is longer from the Whites in the winter than it is from the blues in the summer. All approach shots are easier due to super soft greens and LCP.
I'm in favor of a year-round season. Let the scores fall where they may.
For some who hit a low ball the course is longer from the Whites in the winter than it is from the blues in the summer. All approach shots are easier due to super soft greens and LCP.
I'm in favor of a year-round season. Let the scores fall where they may.
I'm going to keep track of my non-postable index through the winter and see how it shakes out.
Funny that handicap posting for the Northern California Golf Association is open year round when people who live in the Truckee and Lake Tahoe area have all their courses shut down from October to sometimes mid or late May. 220+ inches of annual snowfall is not conducive to playing golf.
Fourputt
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Even though the Colorado Golf Association season is March 15 through November 14, I can post any off season score from say a round played in Florida or Arizona where the handicap season is year round. I have to post such scores online. I've only made use of that option a couple of times a few years ago after visiting my parents in Ft. Myers, but there was no obstacle to doing so. I don't know of any courses in Colorado outside of the mountains which actually close for the season. They only close temporarily when snow prohibits play, then reopen when the snow melts, even if that's mid January.
rollin
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But I still don't see how this can be done unless the rating and slope of the course is also changed accordingly due to the different conditions. There have been many different conditions mentioned here which are very common and even the norm in the off-season but not the norm during the in-season. Therefore the course plays differently and imo is rated and sloped differently. It may or may not be a drastic difference depending just how dominant the differences are in different places but still it is different. There are things which can certainly add up to more than just a couple strokes (better or worse) per round but could mean several strokes (better or worse). The resulting handicap just wouldn't be just.
Just simple things like even just the couple months leaves are around. Play several rounds where one is losing many balls in places they are normally most usually found. Or how about (as been mentioned) in places where everything is very soft and balls are plugging in, and greens are holding and slow vs firm and fast. Or weeds, fescue, and undergrowth are gone vs thriving. Or greens are frozen hard vs not, etc, etc, I can go on with more things that may be either beneficial (pros) or hurtful (cons) in the off-season vs the in-season. It just depends which cons or pros excel in your area at your course during the off-season. Now some people might say for certain pros and cons "but we can have rounds with similar conditions during the in-season too" but my response would be - But those condition during the in-season are not the norm and only encountered a smaller percentage of the time due to the weather or other factors. The big difference is that in the winter those conditions (again depending where you are) are encountered much more often and even may become the norm. So that imo is not the same golf course to a degree or perhaps better said is not played the same way. So the rating and slope would imo need to be adjusted accordingly. But even then, in some places the conditions due to weather change too much in the off season where one week there may be cons and the next week pros and then back again. So I don't think this as simple or as minor as we may think. For the bogey player and weekendhackers who run handicaps we could be looking at 4,5,6 or even more strokes difference in an average round during the off-season. Whether those strokes are pro or con, that's not minor imo. Its significant.