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How forgiveness impacts progress

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robmypro

robmypro

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When i was growing up my dad gave me a cut down set of blades to learn with. They were hard to hit well, but to him they were easier to hit than the set he learned with. A set like that demanded precision, and it provided enough feedback so you knew you missed, and where. Fast forward to today and forgiveness is a main focus, from SGI right up to players clubs. I think this is awesome, as there is literally a perfect set for you, if you spend the time to find it. And for the casual player, forgiveness is a real game changer. They make the game more fun.

But what if you are that guy trying to be the best you can be? You are obsessed with this game. You dream of one day being a scratch player. Does a set of clubs with more forgiveness actually mask or reinforce poor tendencies, and poor precision? Here is another way of looking at it. If i went out and bought a players set of clubs last year, what would have happened? I think of a couple of possibilities...

1. I find out how brutally hard this game is, and then give up. Hey, there's always bowling.

2. I realize that i need lessons.

Now i think outcome #1 is far more likely for the typically person, but what if you've already caught golf fever? Doesn't it make some sense to get a set of unforgiving clubs, so you are almost forced into lessons? And since these clubs will provide the feedback you need to understand and correct your mistakes, the learning process is actually sped up?

Obviously each person needs to weigh a decision like this, and enjoyment is going to take a hit while you learn to hit them properly. But if you are driven to be the absolute best player you can be, does this not offer the potential to get better, faster, albeit with a lot more frustration along the way?

And let's say you did this. Would it not also be possible after a few years to switch to a more forgiving set, and enjoy much more success with them, as your mishits will be a lot less significant?

So my question is really this. Would playing a less forgiving set of clubs help you improve faster, ignoring the hit you will take in enjoyment? Because i may just be crazy enough to try this. LOL
 
I probably improved the most (in terms of HCP) playing a set of Ping G15s. And the improvements carried over to the clubs I am playing now, which are a bit "harder to hit". Focus on making solid contact and you will improve your game playing any type of club.
 
mpeterson said:
I probably improved the most (in terms of HCP) playing a set of Ping G15s. And the improvements carried over to the clubs I am playing now, which are a bit "harder to hit". Focus on making solid contact and you will improve your game playing any type of club.
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100% same situation, picked up Cleveland MTs last year switched to J15 DPFs this year

I also have put a ton of time into mental prep and playing "smarter" and within myself
 
Not at all IMO. I improved way more playing with Ping G5's than I did with way less forgiving irons when I first started. IMO your Ping Eye 2's aren't going to be all that forgiving though when compared to more modern SGI irons.
 
There's nothing a forgiving set of irons won't give you that you need. Feedback is there, just less painful. Shot shaping is there. Forgiveness is there for when you're off by a few millimeters, and centimeters.

If it's negative feedback a golfer needs to make them better, the golfer should just stab themselves in the thigh after each "less that precise" swing.

Get scratch, or die trying.
 
No, it would not. The swing doesn't change and that is the only impactful part of improvement outside of score.
 
I thought like that once. Bought myself a set of TaylorMade MB irons. I thought to myself, "No doubt I'll get better. I'll have no choice."

Boy was I WRONG! Like, really wrong. When I was on, they felt great but a slight mishit and I'd lose 10-15 yards. Cost me strokes all the time.

My best golf has been with my Apex Pro irons. Player setup but plenty of forgiveness for my game.
 
I still think this has merit.... to an extent. I think it's a terrible idea for a beginner or a high handicapper. Once you get under 12 or so I think the idea of getting a less forgiving club to practice with at the range can have it's benefits. Notice I said "club" not "clubs". The only downside is you would need to make sure all the specs are close, length and lie in particular. Offset would be a challenge to match.

All that said I wouldn't hit many shots with that less forgiving club just use it as a bit of a barometer.

Taylormade has a promo video with Justin Rose talking about the new PSi irons. In it he says something that I absolutely love and it's a mindset I have too. Paraphrase here.
"I practice for and expect good shots, I don't expect bad shots, but if they do happen I like to have a little forgiveness."

That's exactly how I feel.
 
Thanks guys. Can anyone who has had success doing it the hard way chime in and describe the journey, and outcome? What i am really trying to understand is if my ceiling might be higher if i took this route. It doesn't sound like it, but who knows.
 
YetiLooper said:
I still think this has merit.... to an extent. I think it's a terrible idea for a beginner or a high handicapper. Once you get under 12 or so I think the idea of getting a less forgiving club to practice with at the range can have it's benefits. Notice I said "club" not "clubs". The only downside is you would need to make sure all the specs are close, length and lie in particular. Offset would be a challenge to match.

All that said I wouldn't hit many shots with that less forgiving club just use it as a bit of a barometer.

Taylormade has a promo video with Justin Rose talking about the new PSi irons. In it he says something that I absolutely love and it's a mindset I have too. Paraphrase here.
"I practice for and expect good shots, I don't expect bad shots, but if they do happen I like to have a little forgiveness."

That's exactly how I feel.
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That's interesting because i have an AP2 712 3i that i bought for exactly this purpose. Maybe i will take it to the range today and see how it goes.
 
This thread makes me question my thoughts of buying the Mizuno MP-5s. Maybe I should go for the MP-25s or the 716 AP2s after all. I dont need more forgiveness than the S55s give me, but the MP-5s might be less forgiving?
 
I think it's a personal thing though it may not work for everyone. So much can probably be attributed to the mental side and confidence.
 
robmypro said:
Thanks guys. Can anyone who has had success doing it the hard way chime in and describe the journey, and outcome? What i am really trying to understand is if my ceiling might be higher if i took this route. It doesn't sound like it, but who knows.
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You may have a hard time finding success stories. That probably isn't a coincidence.

What's you're idea of ceiling? PGA Tour card? Scratch or better? Plenty of evidence that playing more forgiving irons will limit either possibility.
 
blugold said:
You may have a hard time finding success stories. That probably isn't a coincidence.

What's you're idea of ceiling? PGA Tour card? Scratch or better? Plenty of evidence that playing more forgiving irons will limit either possibility.
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I just screen captured this one, saving it for a later date... I kid I kid!
 
I'm probably one of the few success stories that you will find when it comes to making that switch. I played a set of TM Tour Burner irons until I hit about a 5 HDCP. I got offered a chance to get fitted into a set of irons off of the Adams Tour Truck and ended up getting a set of mixed irons with the 7-pw being MB2s and the 3-6 being CB2s. In the next 6 months after that my HDCP dropped to the +1 range and last year I got on Staff with Titleist and was fitted into a set of 714MBs 3-PW. Since then my HDCP, though I just keep it for stats and tracking progress, has dropped to a +2.1.
 
AG47 said:
I'm probably one of the few success stories that you will find when it comes to making that switch. I played a set of TM Tour Burner irons until I hit about a 5 HDCP. I got offered a chance to get fitted into a set of irons off of the Adams Tour Truck and ended up getting a set of mixed irons with the 7-pw being MB2s and the 3-6 being CB2s. In the next 6 months after that my HDCP dropped to the +1 range and last year I got on Staff with Titleist and was fitted into a set of 714MBs 3-PW. Since then my HDCP, though I just keep it for stats and tracking progress, has dropped to a +2.1.
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Can I ask a question, do you think the Tour Burner was holding you back from where you are now?
 
I did it the hard way when I was young as well with Wilson blades and my hands still sting today from them. I'll take all the forgiveness I can get in a golf club. I don't see any of the world class pro's today using any tiny little blades from the 50's/60's/70's today..........
 
blugold said:
Can I ask a question, do you think the Tour Burner was holding you back from where you are now?
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I think that they were. I had plenty of distance and accuracy with them but my game was lacking the ability to work the ball. I would have to exaggerate the move in order to work the ball in the desired direction but now it only takes minor adjustments to work the ball. One other thing that hurt me was the offset of the club face. I fight a hook due to fast hands and a prior injury that inhibits my turn on the ball. The offset exaggerated the hook. As soon as I switched to players irons the hook was minimalized and I was able to start working the ball both ways.
 
blugold said:
You may have a hard time finding success stories. That probably isn't a coincidence.

What's you're idea of ceiling? PGA Tour card? Scratch or better? Plenty of evidence that playing more forgiving irons will limit either possibility.
Click to expand...

Scratch would be a goal, no doubt about it.

AG47 said:
I'm probably one of the few success stories that you will find when it comes to making that switch. I played a set of TM Tour Burner irons until I hit about a 5 HDCP. I got offered a chance to get fitted into a set of irons off of the Adams Tour Truck and ended up getting a set of mixed irons with the 7-pw being MB2s and the 3-6 being CB2s. In the next 6 months after that my HDCP dropped to the +1 range and last year I got on Staff with Titleist and was fitted into a set of 714MBs 3-PW. Since then my HDCP, though I just keep it for stats and tracking progress, has dropped to a +2.1.
Click to expand...

That is awesome. There are not nearly as many people at your level, and it makes me wonder if the hard way is the way to much higher levels of play. Can you talk a little about your journey from the first set? Was it really hard to hit, and did this push you to get lessons? I am trying to understand if using difficult clubs early set you on your path, as opposed to you were just really natural at the game. Thanks for chiming in AG.
 
AG47 said:
I think that they were. I had plenty of distance and accuracy with them but my game was lacking the ability to work the ball. I would have to exaggerate the move in order to work the ball in the desired direction but now it only takes minor adjustments to work the ball. One other thing that hurt me was the offset of the club face. I fight a hook due to fast hands and a prior injury that inhibits my turn on the ball. The offset exaggerated the hook. As soon as I switched to players irons the hook was minimalized and I was able to start working the ball both ways.
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It's funny, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but I agree totally. I have been told in here that offset has no affect on draw, that it only affects helping her the ball up. When I went from my muscle backs to my Bio Cell+ which have a bit more offset, I had to make some adjustments to accommodate the stronger draw.

I have also seen some, less than scientific, studies showing that mb irons have a tighter dispersion on cleanly struck balls. Obviously mishits result in shorter distance, but the precision is better. Now granted the less forgiving the more consistent your striking needs to be.

The biggest advantage I would see in forgiveness is for shots that are poorly hit but on line. Personally when I make a bad shot they end up being offline so it's kinda moot most the time if I have the same distance as a purely hit ball.
 
I have really enjoyed this thread. Right now I am playing a more game improvement type iron but am pondering a switch to clubs that are on the line of a game improvement/players iron. I am right around 20 for my handicap and am happy with that from where I started this year. My goal in the next year is to drop that into the low to mid teens.
I have been thinking a lot about this and wondering if playing a less forgiving iron could actually help me improve. I listened to the guy that is a club designer for Ben hogan golf on a podcast today and he brought up some great points about the different types of irons.
I think when looking at development in anything athletically related it is important to "fail" so that you can learn and grow from it. The harder I make it on myself now will eventually allow me to grow more and more into the player I want to be.
As of right now I am torn on what I am going to do in terms of my irons. I like the idea of forgiveness from a standpoint that it will help me have a better score now but I also like the idea of a players iron because of the potential it could have in improving my game down the road.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It's amazing that so many tour professionals have the abilities they do without using muscle back irons.
 
JB said:
It's amazing that so many tour professionals have the abilities they do without using muscle back irons.
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Didnt Freddie Jacobsen switch to the XRs? Not really a players iron
 
robmypro said:
Scratch would be a goal, no doubt about it.



That is awesome. There are not nearly as many people at your level, and it makes me wonder if the hard way is the way to much higher levels of play. Can you talk a little about your journey from the first set? Was it really hard to hit, and did this push you to get lessons? I am trying to understand if using difficult clubs early set you on your path, as opposed to you were just really natural at the game. Thanks for chiming in AG.
Click to expand...

I definitely didn't start out as a natural. My first few years of playing I had a wicked slice that looked like it was gonna turn around and come back too me. I had a job at the time that allowed me to have plenty of time in the afternoons to practice so I set up an area at the house and started working on my short game. It seemed like the work just carried over into my longer clubs because eventually the slice was gone and my scores started to drop. I never took a lesson, just watched videos and read Golf articles.

When I played the Tour Burners, early 2000s models and not the early 90s version, I hit the ball really high and had the tendency to hook and/or balloon the ball. When I switched over to the mixed set of Adams irons my spin rates came down and I got more of a penetrating trajectory. I would normally attribute that to the shafts but both sets had PX 6.5s.

I didn't feel like the blades were any harder to hit but I could definitely tell when I had a miss hit. My general miss is a thin shot off of the toe and one of those bad boys will really sting the hands off of a set of blades.
 
JB said:
It's amazing that so many tour professionals have the abilities they do without using muscle back irons.
Click to expand...

That's why they get paid the big bucks.
 
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