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So which brand (if any) has the new club out to truly challange the succes of Epic?

SuperStroke
It amazes me that Callaway is so far away the leader in driver sales. All you've seen on tour the last couple seasons are TM drivers. They just stand out and players across OEMs have them in their bag. I guess it shows how little tour exposure effects sales because TM definitely led in tour usage I would think.

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mikeg_74 said:
Thanks for the insight. I guess TM sells more than I thought. So if they are not 3rd, who is, Ping? Assuming 1 is Callaway and 2 is TM.
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That is correct. Callaway first in drivers (all metal woods and hard goods), TM second and then Ping.
 
moosejaa said:
It amazes me that Callaway is so far away the leader in driver sales. All you've seen on tour the last couple seasons are TM drivers. They just stand out and players across OEMs have them in their bag. I guess it shows how little tour exposure effects sales because TM definitely led in tour usage I would think.

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I think the idiom of win on Sunday sell on Monday has gone away. Yes winning helps boost visibility but with more information out there via websites (like THP) and social media plus the push by most OEMs for fitting...

Also, I don't think you will see as many TM drivers on tour this year. Yes I am sure they will be out there, but there are plenty of guys that weren't sponsors for full 14 clubs taking the tee up money that TM was paying. With the new ownership I don't think they are doing that and obviously have cut back on their tour staff focusing on a few legit studs.
 
moosejaa said:
It amazes me that Callaway is so far away the leader in driver sales. All you've seen on tour the last couple seasons are TM drivers. They just stand out and players across OEMs have them in their bag. I guess it shows how little tour exposure effects sales because TM definitely led in tour usage I would think.

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mancest said:
I think the idiom of win on Sunday sell on Monday has gone away. Yes winning helps boost visibility but with more information out there via websites (like THP) and social media plus the push by most OEMs for fitting...
.
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I agree "mancest" has a point. There is simply just ar too much info so easily available nowadays that relying mostly on the tour pros may not quite be what it use to be. Though Id imagine for those not as highly involved in seeking out real world info (like unique communities such as THP or others) will still prefer to play what the pros do.

But in relation to that easily available information, Epic has one hell of a positive resume with so very many amateurs and even fitters have found the numbers among so many who have come to them are not just hype. Like anything else its not at all worked for everyone of course. But collectively the info out on the web as for the average amateurs and their fitters alike was/is simply just too good and happening far too often for it to be only meaningless hype. Even if weeding out exaggerated reviews and reviews with no real valid info behind them and the grains of salt they come with just as we might do for any new club. The remaining collective results are still an overwhelming amount on the positive side by so many that it is simply too dominant to ignore or dismiss as being no big deal. It imo moved and set the new standard for a driver. So regardless of the tour we have that info, testimony, and track records to read about and so many amateurs have bought in and rightfully so. Imo going to be difficult enough to match that new standard and (at least for now) extremely difficult to surpass it.
 
rollin said:
I agree "mancest" has a point. There is simply just ar too much info so easily available nowadays that relying mostly on the tour pros may not quite be what it use to be. Though Id imagine for those not as highly involved in seeking out real world info (like unique communities such as THP or others) will still prefer to play what the pros do.

But in relation to that easily available information, Epic has one hell of a positive resume with so very many amateurs and even fitters have found the numbers among so many who have come to them are not just hype. Like anything else its not at all worked for everyone of course. But collectively the info out on the web as for the average amateurs and their fitters alike was/is simply just too good and happening far too often for it to be only meaningless hype. Even if weeding out exaggerated reviews and reviews with no real valid info behind them and the grains of salt they come with just as we might do for any new club. The remaining collective results are still an overwhelming amount on the positive side by so many that it is simply too dominant to ignore or dismiss as being no big deal. It imo moved and set the new standard for a driver. So regardless of the tour we have that info, testimony, and track records to read about and so many amateurs have bought in and rightfully so. Imo going to be difficult enough to match that new standard and (at least for now) extremely difficult to surpass it.
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why am I in quotes "rollin"?
 
Jimmy3864 said:
Based on all of the 2017 Granddaddy THP Prestige team went with the 2018 Callaway Redeacted driver assuming they also had an opportunity to have hit or tested the Epic, it sounds like Callaway has a formidable follow-up. With all the momentum from the Epic's success it will be a tough hill to climb but certainly within grasp with the F8, M3/M4 , etc based on early feedback. Looks like a great year to buy a driver.
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I can confirm that we had an opportunity to hit the Epic at the ECPC...


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mancest said:
why am I in quotes "rollin"?
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I often have a habit of doing that to imply that it is a forum name and not some random word. Probably not the proper way of writing but Im farthest thing from any English/writing professor..lol
Nothing at all meant by that in any way other than to reference its a forum name.
Wrong thing to do? sorry if it is.
 
Nobody catches Callaway this year. I think Twist Face isnt going nearly as beneficial for amateurs as they are making it out to be. F8 seems to be a great offering from Cobra but I don't think Cobra sees a bump in sales. G400 is good but it's not THAT good. 917 is good but in it's second year isn't going to see a boost in sales.
 
Taylormade has the best shot. Lots of guys on tour use them and they have the marketing money to go after Callaway. Will it work? I don't know, but if amateurs during testing really do hit it long and straight and think the "Twisted Face" is the reason why they might buy it. I personally am very skeptical of golf club marketing regardless of manufacturer.

Dave
 
JB said:
That is correct. Callaway first in drivers (all metal woods and hard goods), TM second and then Ping.
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JB, do you have rankings for Putters? I wasn’t having a recent debate and was curious where PING was in term of putter sales.


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As far as I can see the Taylormade twisted face technology is the only thing out there that really has made a claim to do what Callaway JailBreak has done. I can't wait to see a real side-by-side comparison.
 
rallo said:
In the end, Callaway would have to screw the pooch IMO. I remember people thinking this exact same thing when TM was on top 5ish years ago... then rbz2, SLDR, jetspeed, SLDR-S... I don't see Callaway falling on their face as quickly as TM did.
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Not sure that is how it went though. RBZ2 was never a main line driver, SLDR-S and jetspeed were after thoughts. SLDR was a great club and the first low spin marketed, now if you missed the center of the face it was awful. Then they hit it out of the park with first M1/M2. That was followed by just another M1/M2 that didn't do much new and then Epic came out which was an increase in ball speed for most. Callaway probably stays in front of TM unless M3/M4 carry a ball speed increase compared to Epic. Now I doubt Rouge sells nearly as much as the Epic for the reason that the Epic was great and not everyone will want to move on. That said Callaway is still in a good spot.
 
rollin said:
Interesting that a number of us are talking of challenging or dethroning Epic in a marketing sense. But I would say its more than that which is what it would take. What I mean is the results to the amateur. its no secret that far too many people throughout the amateur world have and continue to see true gains with Epic. And that's been a pretty consistent and dominant thing collectively reported and shared by just so many darn people. So imo there would have to be a club that not only matches that performance feedback of Epic but also surpass it. Not so sure that's going happen just yet. And honestly might at best only be matched.

I think "truly" moving the performance bar is something that only happens once in a looong while. It may be a few or even several years before its truly moved again. Id assume it will be matched rather quickly but moved again is a whole other thing. Been an interesting thread imo thus far.
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I wonder how many of those people who saw gains with the epic were actually fitted on their previous driver.

I had a chance to hit it on a sim in a golftec and it really offered me no improvement over my 2016 M1 and if anything was actually slightly shorter overall and no more forgiving really.
 
Didn't game the 2016 M series but they were great clubs. That said I had 1 mph more with the epic then when I had tested M1. Both were better than the R15 I was gaming.
 
ntanygd760 said:
Not sure that is how it went though. RBZ2 was never a main line driver, SLDR-S and jetspeed were after thoughts. SLDR was a great club and the first low spin marketed, now if you missed the center of the face it was awful. Then they hit it out of the park with first M1/M2. That was followed by just another M1/M2 that didn't do much new and then Epic came out which was an increase in ball speed for most. Callaway probably stays in front of TM unless M3/M4 carry a ball speed increase compared to Epic. Now I doubt Rouge sells nearly as much as the Epic for the reason that the Epic was great and not everyone will want to move on. That said Callaway is still in a good spot.
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You are forgetting about R15 and Aeroburner...And Jetspeed was absolutely one of their main releases, as was RBZ Stage 2. For the last decade, they have gone with the two line route. If Jetspeed and Stage 2 were not their main drivers, M2 wouldn't be either. Its about hitting different price points. They moved away from R with SLDR and then the following year it was brought back with R15.
 
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Renren89 said:
I wonder how many of those people who saw gains with the epic were actually fitted on their previous driver.

I had a chance to hit it on a sim in a golftec and it really offered me no improvement over my 2016 M1 and if anything was actually slightly shorter overall and no more forgiving really.
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Nothing is ever without exceptions nor right for everyone. And that would even include a good percentage of people. But the feedback was and been far too positive among so very many most anywhere. That's why I sort of implied earlier that even if we dismiss the usual excuses and flaws with feedback there is/was still an overwhelming amount of positive feedback fairly wide spread and far too much of it to just chalk things up to chance, flaws, and excuses. Many feel the usual marketing hype with new drivers of being the greatest, longest, most forgiving, bestest, has very little if any real world meaning anymore but that this time some would argue the epic did actually deliver something real and measurable towards that hype (even if minimal) and possibly a new standard. But minimal is a lot imo when it comes to standards. So with that....is why I asked who would be challenging that new standard and even surpass it? Of course the epic has its own thread for reviews and such. But this is not that, and is about who will match or surpass it in real world performance results and also sales.
 
Renren89 said:
I wonder how many of those people who saw gains with the epic were actually fitted on their previous driver.

I had a chance to hit it on a sim in a golftec and it really offered me no improvement over my 2016 M1 and if anything was actually slightly shorter overall and no more forgiving really.
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One guy in office I can attest to was not fitted for his previous driver...and also was not fitted for the epic, bought it online. And the differences in distance and direction are very, very real. He is far more consistent and much, much longer. I, on the other hand, from the second I picked up an epic went from the longest, straightest, most consistent driving streak of my life to I have actually almost taken the driver out of my bag...and I did not buy the epic. Something about that test session screwed up my driver swing so bad that even my long-time driver has become a weapon of mass destruction. Unfortunately, that destruction is more likely to be the bird house 50 yards right of the fairway two off to the left or...well, anywhere except the golf course.

So yeah, for the person I know who it worked for, it worked big time, but it did not work for everyone
 
JB said:
You are forgetting about R15 and Aeroburner...And Jetspeed was absolutely one of their main releases, as was RBZ Stage 2. For the last decade, they have gone with the two line route. If Jetspeed and Stage 2 were not their main drivers, M2 wouldn't be either. Its about hitting different price points. They moved away from R with SLDR and then the following year it was brought back with R15.
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Yeah totally left out R15, was my gamer. I guess you are right about M2 similar jetspeed. I guess I am ignoring the Jetspeed because it was an awful garbage spin monster. Still have the aeroburner 3 wood, solid, had to chop an inch off as it is absurdly long shaft length stock.
 
JetSpeed was high spin? Interesting
 
It spun way more than SLDR/R15, never hit it with the same shafts so maybe that added to it.
 
ntanygd760 said:
Not sure that is how it went though. RBZ2 was never a main line driver, SLDR-S and jetspeed were after thoughts. SLDR was a great club and the first low spin marketed, now if you missed the center of the face it was awful. Then they hit it out of the park with first M1/M2. That was followed by just another M1/M2 that didn't do much new and then Epic came out which was an increase in ball speed for most. Callaway probably stays in front of TM unless M3/M4 carry a ball speed increase compared to Epic. Now I doubt Rouge sells nearly as much as the Epic for the reason that the Epic was great and not everyone will want to move on. That said Callaway is still in a good spot.
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I don't know, they were marketing the Jetspeed pretty hard with all of the commercials etc. Was it speed police with the puppets, and Paulina Gretzky? I honestly wish that club would have worked for me, as it could be found insanely cheap, and with a free fwy wood in most cases.

I guess (and obviously just my personal opinion) TM could do no wrong with the R series, and then came the SLDR, which was a players driver marketed as a club for everyone. I think the public bought into this club, but then discovered that they couldn't hit it... this broke the illusion of TM being untouchable... follow that up with the flop that was the Jetspeed, and you have where we are now.
 
JB said:
JetSpeed was high spin? Interesting
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Wasn’t the last high spin TM driver the R9 ?

Everything they have produced since just falls out of the sky for me.
 
ntanygd760 said:
It spun way more than SLDR/R15, never hit it with the same shafts so maybe that added to it.
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I’m not arguing what people find as impact plays a larger role. In our testing it was DEFINITELY not high spin and when ddec and I spoke to the designer about it (it was TO’s last TM design), he spoke about the goals to produce the longest driver possible and how he did that.
 
Wasn't it designed to be the longest driver for slower swing speeds hence a bit higher spinning. I could be way wrong though, honest question as you would know more.
 
ntanygd760 said:
Wasn't it designed to be the longest driver for slower swing speeds hence a bit higher spinning. I could be way wrong though, honest question as you would know more.
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Low and Forward does not compute to high spin. From the original press copy.
It was paired with a super long extra light shaft, so people were not making clean contact, which then left more spin on the ball.
The shaft is not causing the spin change as much as contact is.

First Speed Pocket engineered for a driver
promotes more distance on hits low on the face.
Low-and-forward CG promotes faster ball
speed and lower spin-rate for more distance.
Shallow profile allows ultra-low CG to deliver
more distance.
Long and light – 46” / 299 grams – promotes
faster swing speed for more distance and
confidence.
Streamlined head-shape delivers optimal
aerodynamics.
Matte black crown reduces glare and a
contrasting silver face makes alignment easy.
Matrix Velox T 49 shaft promotes fast swing
speed.
 
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