DB86
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Maybe I didn’t really type out what I meant. I guess More or less what I meant was that there hasn’t been much thrown out as a challenge to Callaway here so far.
So which brand (if any) has the new club out to truly challange the succes of Epic?
Maybe I didn’t really type out what I meant. I guess More or less what I meant was that there hasn’t been much thrown out as a challenge to Callaway here so far.
rollin
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But improve upon is imo what a replacement is.
Improve upon (getting more) from the jail break tech, improve upon face forgiveness and ball speed for both those. That imo would all be getting more from the epic tech and therefore its successor to it (or replacement) much more than they are alternative. The draw bias and moi thing would be alternative. But thats the only one imo. But even that is the draw bias club for the successor version so that is alternative to the other rougs available.
Subjective opinion I suppose. As you said its how you view it
If many find the rouge to deliver more ball speed across the face and more forgiveness across it, those are things that epic brought. And so if out done would be the replacement. I think very hard to out do so by default may prove to be more an alternative where one works better ofr one person while the other better for another. But imo in general when you improve upon the new and main tech that dominated the last club then how can that not really be the successor to it? So I think callaway covers themselves really well here by stating alternative. That way they win either way. If ts no better they never said it was successor and if wokrs better for others or others who couldn't play epic but find this one to work, they win too as they found this so called "alternative" to work. So I think they sort of eliminate the risk I mentioned by doing it this way. With that then is good smart marketing.
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I guess you are getting hung up on semantics.
Take a look at all the information available and you will see that Rogue is a different driver than Epic. Do they both share the Jailbreak technology? Sure they do, but that is where it ends. The face technology was not exclusive to Epic as Callaway had it in several other driver/fairway wood lines, there is no APW on Rogue because with Epic the more you adjusted the APW, the less you would benefit from the MOI in Epic. Rogue has different jailbreak bars, no APW, higher MOI and a draw option.
I read all of that and I see a new offering from Callaway and one that is positioned to help those that did not get the maximum benefit out of Epic.
I don't think it's a semantics hangup so much as some really blurry lines between the different product lines. IMO this is the first time Callaway has been unclear on what role each line is supposed to fulfil.
I asked the question in the Rogue thread but I'll ask it here again, what would cause a fitter to steer someone to the Epic over the Rogue? There's only one scenario I can think of where that makes sense.
rallo
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Agreed brother, for me I liken it to the GBB versus the XR16. Did both have R*Moto? Sure, but they were completely different drivers. Now I get that the lines are a little more blurred between Rogue and Epic, especially since the crown stylings are similar, but to me they are completely different drivers. Some people who prefer APW and don't need additional MOI may prefer the EPIC, but now there are more options.
I'm guessing Rogue will help more on mishits than Epic will. By adjusting the APW you lose the MOI benefits Epic brought to the table. If I had to guess, a player who hits the center of the face more often than not will be in the Epic camp and the player who lives out towards the heel or toe would benefit from Rogue. Also the Rogue head shape might not be appealing to better players at address as well.
rollin
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I did look. Now lets just talk the basic epic (centered weight) and roug for the moment. The video is about the improvements to jail break. In turn allows for more energy to the ball, lighter head with even stiffer top/bottom, thinner and more forgiving face with wider margine for forgiveness and maintaining better ball speed on those mishits. Imo that's all the things that epic brought to the table so to me it all says successor. It says an improved upon epic. Does it not? Different views I understand from us and not saying your view is wrong but am saying this is what I see from this and therefore I would assume other people as well which would/could mean how a good percentage of customers (or potential customers out there) would also see it.
It does improve on the technology Epic introduced, but is completely different on how it is used. The jailbreak bars are different, MOI is higher, face is thinner, no APW so as a potential customer walking into my local big box store I would think this is a new offering from Callaway. Does it blur the lines, sure it does, but not to the point of confusion.
rallo
#FYF
I agree and it also is part of the branding. It's not as if they went xhot to x2hot, or XR to XR16. Two different names for different lines of drivers.
To me, this argument is like saying every TM driver with a sliding weight is an SLDR replacement, or every iron with a power slot replaces rocketbladez.
TM has an image issue at the moment. I believe they are still recovering from the ownership and leadership changes from a couple years ago.
emart2173
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That's a good question and talking with my fitter late last year his callaway rep told him that he won't need epic once rogue is released. We know rogue is rx replacement and epic is part of the GBB line. What my fitter as told is they won't really be pushing epic and whatever stock he has he will keep but that the chances of restocking won't be there and they will just fill orders if he doesn't have the desired setup in stock. The epic isn't supposed to be reduced in price until later in there which I'm guessing is because callaway is trying to hold to 18-24 release cycles and epic has been out basically a year.
My interpretation of the conversation is while rogue isn't a replacement there will be no push of the epic and it will be all about the rogue while maintaining release cycle of the epic until the next GBB line or whatever replaces epic.
After reading this entire thread and just considering the state of the industry I don't see anyone threatening Callaway and the only club that might unseat Epic will come from within their own company.
We sat here what four years ago or so and thought TM would never be challenged. Nothing lasts forever but theses guys are pretty buttoned up.And they dont appear to be arrogant about it.
We sat here what four years ago or so and thought TM would never be challenged. Nothing lasts forever but theses guys are pretty buttoned up.And they dont appear to be arrogant about it.
taking myself out of the small niche that is an informed THP member, walking into the store I would think this is the XR replacement. The main difference with TM is that they were not denying each iteration of the SLDR with that technology was replacing the previous model.
Along with the image issue I would also say they have a marketing issue.
nailed it. I look at it as this will be the line that is pushed this release cycle and nothing more.
I think the leg up Callaway has is in the marketing/consumer engagement and inventory control. TM did everyone a favor showing what not to do with inventory and getting too big for your own good.
rollin
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fair enough and we could go back and forth with just what improvement means and how it relates to being a successor or an alternative....and most probably to no end...lol
But its all good discussion.
But puting that "improvement" (and just what it means to us) part of the discussion aside and on another note...
Most people do not know the things we do about tech. Even if you knew twice what I do, the average person still probably knows half of what I would. When they walk into the box store they see the rouge as the epic successor. Especially with the epic having less marketing, not as easily available and even a lower price point. Many them don't even care nor care to understand what we just been talking about. In their mind this is the latest,greatest, bestest and the newer/better cllaway club than last years epic. There is something (although a bit separate from what we been discussing) to be said for this as well and I thought was worth mentioning.
But also If rouge is truly meant as an alternative and not a successor, then why not (and maybe they still will) come out with the GBB Epic2 or whatever have you later on this year. I wonder and even curious if this could be the case.