The Open Stance full swing philosophy

sickyspider said:

Well these are not my original thoughts they have been shared with me but they make sense to me and my filmed swing backs them up. I'm a firm believer in the mind's power over the golf swing. Visualising the target line and what type of shot you intend to play will in some way affect how the body moves to try to achieve it.

Perhaps another factor at play here is rear eye dominance. I am right handed and right eye dominant and I putt, chip and pitch best open stance because I can see the line and commit to it. Extending that to the full swing with a few set up alterations was a natural progression for me which is the best decision I ever made in playing golf!

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Finding a swing that works or a method is key, ut sounds like you found that. Knowing how and why it works is even more powerful.

While playang with an open stance does free up the hips. It doesn't shallow out the golf swing. Yours may be shallow but the act of opening tr stance does not cause this.

Tadashi70 said:

Finding a swing that works or a method is key, ut sounds like you found that. Knowing how and why it works is even more powerful.

While playang with an open stance does free up the hips. It doesn't shallow out the golf swing. Yours may be shallow but the act of opening tr stance does not cause this.

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Cheers Tadashi70 - I hope I can build on this moving forward. I also have a slight rear tilt of the spine at the hips which definitely helps shallow out the swing but not consistently until I opened up my stance.

My over the top swing was caused by my upper body/arms leading the downswing (from video evidence during lessons). To me it seems logical that if my lower body/legs initiate the downswing and my arms play catch up they must surely re-route to a different plane. David Leadbetter in Golf Digest seems to think the open stance shallows out the swing plane due to a trick of the mind. I'm not sure but I'm going to find out!

sickyspider said:

Perhaps another factor at play here is rear eye dominance.

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That's an interesting thing to note. I'm cross dominant (right handed - left eye) and if I set up open at all I have a tendency to really cut across the ball. Not sure if that is actually playing a role, but maybe.

cbaker2882 said:

That's an interesting thing to note. I'm cross dominant (right handed - left eye) and if I set up open at all I have a tendency to really cut across the ball. Not sure if that is actually playing a role, but maybe.

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It makes sense as if I'm closed it plays havoc with my swing plane. The problem with being rear eye dominant is it is difficult to set up square consistently because of the illusion that the lead eye (the non dominant one) creates. So you think you are square but actually you are closed which happened repeatedly with me. Setting up slightly open solves that problem instantly!

sickyspider said:

Cheers Tadashi70 - I hope I can build on this moving forward. I also have a slight rear tilt of the spine at the hips which definitely helps shallow out the swing but not consistently until I opened up my stance.

My over the top swing was caused by my upper body/arms leading the downswing (from video evidence during lessons). To me it seems logical that if my lower body/legs initiate the downswing and my arms play catch up they must surely re-route to a different plane. David Leadbetter in Golf Digest seems to think the open stance shallows out the swing plane due to a trick of the mind. I'm not sure but I'm going to find out!

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I have a great deal of experince with David and his teachers. While the article may have stated that I know they teach more or a traditional, zero load swing.

If you are getting the club to the top with the shoulders and starting the downswing with the legs. The club will not reroute but stay on plane.

It sounds t me in your efforts to do away with the over the top move yoy shallower out your swing by dropping the hands down to the hip. This is a great way to play and control your ball.

I'm sure you are right re David Leadbetter but if all the standard techniques have failed for whatever reason, his alternative set up recommendation is a good one.

I would be very interested to see the relationship between rear eye dominance and issues with poor set up!

cbaker2882 said:

That's an interesting thing to note. I'm cross dominant (right handed - left eye) and if I set up open at all I have a tendency to really cut across the ball. Not sure if that is actually playing a role, but maybe.

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Same here. It caused me issues for a long time until I got serious about the game.

I just think (and is something I have always maintained the thought of) we are all so different. All our body proportions, physical makeup, and movements are all too different. From our natural gate to the way we simply walk, balance, and move about while doing physical tasks is all different. This is why I feel outside of a some basic fundamentals there is no right or wrong ways (within reason) to strike golf balls. There is so much advice out there and I don't like when those giving it say it with such determination as though its the only way to do something because all it really is , is the way it happens to work best for that person as well as "some" others but never is it so correct for anyone.

I happen to stand a bit closed and fortunately both my past instructors had no issue at all with it. Even when specifically discussing it they both said similar. Both said if that's what is comfortable for you than there is no problem standing that way. As long as its not detrimental or the reason for a specific problem there is no rule that says I cant stand closed. We see all kinds of crazy and "un-text book" like swings even at the tour level. In the end all that matters is that one has all the stars lined up at point of contact for the shot they desire.

I also believe our physical makeup being so very different is also a big part of why some people can play this game more consistently than others. My theory- Regardless of how text book or not ones swing is, there is just something that allows one person to end up in the right position at point of contact more often than another person. A player can have a swing that doesn't appear great and yet tier own physical makeup simply allows better for the swing to come together for that split second (at contact) where as other people have to fight against their own body's physical makeup or natural movements in order for all to be in exactly the right place at point of contact. I really believe this is why (and not related to athleticism) some players can repeat good ball striking much more often than others.

Yes there is practice and efforts and all that stuff which helps but in the end if one just happens to be lucky enough for his/her natural proportions, movements, and physical gates (for lack of a better term) to be more in sync with whats required to contact a golf ball with the club they will be able to do it well more often vs one who is always having to fight against his/her own body's natural movements to do the same thing. Basically in my theory one person is more capable of repeating it because its simply easier for that person because it simply better matches his/her natural physical makeup. (again, not to be confused with athleticism). However, the person less fortunate (golf wise) may be better at doing other physical tasks better and more consistently if such movements required for those tasks happen to line up better with their body's makeup. The further away imo ones body naturally is from ending up in the right place at point of contact than the more they have to fight and the less often they can repeat it. The closer ones makeup allows them to be in the right position at point of contact, the more they are able to repeat it.

Call me crazy for my theory but so very many people try like hell for so long to get more consistent at golf and some can do it with half the efforts while others cant do it with double the efforts. Many may work the same good efforts and yet one person excels while the other struggles with it. I think the physical measurements , gates, and natural movements of some people are simply better in sync for allowing one to strike golf balls with a club vs other people. This very same logic of mine I believe is also why so many pieces of advice out there only work for some and almost never work for all and why there is no such thing (within reason) as "one" swing or right way to do it. Its all part of the same thing imo. ....That thing? - we are all way too different.

I actually think this can help some (maybe even a lot of) people play better golf.

I do however think it's a compensation for another problem.

A lot of people who come over the top can't get their front hip 'out of the way' ('fire too late', I think), and it makes them come OTT.

The fix would be to correct that; a quick fix would be to set up open to the target so your front hip is already out of the way.

I could be wrong though.

How do you know you've actually fixed it? Video your swing and see if you're still OTT. You may still be OTT, but less OTT than you previously were.

Or, who gives a shift...if it's helping you play better golf, and you're having more fun, that's ultimately the end result we are all seeking (unless you're trying to get to scratch, or to compete).

UglySwing said:

I actually think this can help some (maybe even a lot of) people play better golf.

I do however think it's a compensation for another problem.

A lot of people who come over the top can't get their front hip 'out of the way' ('fire too late', I think), and it makes them come OTT.

The fix would be to correct that; a quick fix would be to set up open to the target so your front hip is already out of the way.

I could be wrong though.

How do you know you've actually fixed it? Video your swing and see if you're still OTT. You may still be OTT, but less OTT than you previously were.

Or, who gives a shift...if it's helping you play better golf, and you're having more fun, that's ultimately the end result we are all seeking (unless you're trying to get to scratch, or to compete).

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OTT comes from throwing the hands out instead of down from the top of the swing. The hips do not fire as the player tries to generate power from the top.
An open hip stance is very useful provided the shoulders and club are on the same line. It just aids in getting the lower body out of the way.

UglySwing said:

I actually think this can help some (maybe even a lot of) people play better golf.

I do however think it's a compensation for another problem.

A lot of people who come over the top can't get their front hip 'out of the way' ('fire too late', I think), and it makes them come OTT.

The fix would be to correct that; a quick fix would be to set up open to the target so your front hip is already out of the way.

I could be wrong though.

How do you know you've actually fixed it? Video your swing and see if you're still OTT. You may still be OTT, but less OTT than you previously were.

Or, who gives a shift...if it's helping you play better golf, and you're having more fun, that's ultimately the end result we are all seeking (unless you're trying to get to scratch, or to compete).

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John Wright the PGA coach who teaches the open stance philosophy says its a cure not a fix but I accept it depends on your perspective as to what is a cure or a fix! My swing has been filmed and viewed by a coach who said it is more along a neutral plane now.

I cannot use and open stance. I cannot get my shoulders square to target when I do. They go way left of target on the back swing and I'll put the ball in the woods or OB. If anything I set up with my feet somewhat closed and have the best luck there. It's the way my SI joint is aligned.

Tadashi70 said:

Just so we are clear. Most swings have the face going one direction, shoulders another, hips another. These three set the tone for the two way miss.

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Question about this - are you talking about the clear shank? Maybe it's just me, but I can't visualize lining up my feet, and not having my shoulders follow the same line. It just falls into place...

I'm trying to help a buddy of mine control his miss, and he has a very unorthodox swing, so it's difficult to figure out what he is doing. Awkwardly, this may be it

nwgolfr said:

Question about this - are you talking about the clear shank? Maybe it's just me, but I can't visualize lining up my feet, and not having my shoulders follow the same line. It just falls into place...

I'm trying to help a buddy of mine control his miss, and he has a very unorthodox swing, so it's difficult to figure out what he is doing. Awkwardly, this may be it

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You would set the shoulder and club face on the same line, the target. The left foot or front foot now flares out and drops of the line a bit. This can be done and still have the hips and shoulders along the same line as the club face.

What most people do is line up the face of the club in a target many yards away. The shoulders typically point left and hip maybe right. Thtee point all going different directions. Something may get crossed up. The human body can be headed in many different directions, never more evident than in the golf swing

Tadashi70 said:

You would set the shoulder and club face on the same line, the target. The left foot or front foot now flares out and drops of the line a bit. This can be done and still have the hips and shoulders along the same line as the club face.

What most people do is line up the face of the club in a target many yards away. The shoulders typically point left and hip maybe right. Thtee point all going different directions. Something may get crossed up. The human body can be headed in many different directions, never more evident than in the golf swing

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I have been doing basically this recently and my driving has improved a lot. I have always had a tendancy to have a closed set up, which led to a hip stall. With the hips a little open I can rotate through better.