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Pick up and mark every putt ? Dont finish your lag putting?

GenErr said:
The guys I play with are all fast players. If any of us went through a new, complete "putting routine" more than once on a green they would "hear about it" from the rest of us.
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One doesn't even have to be a fast player to see that greens play can often be one of the biggest reasons for slow play. Right up there along with searching for lost balls are both imo the two biggest reasons of them all. Far greater than wrong tee choice or poor play which are imo about the least (with some exceptions) and then of course all the other stuff that falls in between.

Someone mentioned that "even pros miss" as a means to imply why going through the process for all but the very shortest putts is needed. But I say its that very fact which actually works towards implying why its sometimes ridiculous. Of the thousands (or uncountable) amounts of putts I've collectively seen through many years of playing I can honestly say the same amount of putts are hit and missed by those who pickup, mark, wait, replace as those who don't. The only one thing I can say at times I have seen it actually do for certain more than anything else is simply take more time. And its not a detriment towards pace all the time of course but it is a detriment often enough of the times.

Nothing worse when the next group ahead is out in the next fairway hitting approaches and player X (who missed his lag putt) has to now wait for another to clear before then again going through an entire time consuming process and then miss the put. Have two or three in the group or dare i say all four do the same thing on the same green and you can be there for quite a lengthy time.

Ok, I'm ready to get blasted now :)
 
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Outside of 2', I'll go through the routine again. Especially if I'm not putting well. Even the pros miss those. Someone may have a putt on a similar line and I want to see the break near the hole. Sorry. I may make it, or I may even miss it. But I'm trying to lower my score. It could make the difference between shooting an 88 or a 90. To me, that's a milestone.
 
rollin said:
Are you the type who just has to pickup, mark, clean, replace every single putt? And/or never finishes the 2nd after a lag putt without doing the same again?

To each his own but I have to admit, it sometimes can get a bit ridiculous and even a tad annoying imo. Not to mention at times too time consuming.

For me I tend to leave my ball more often than not unless its real dirty or of course unless in some ones way. I will finish up from lag putting unless of course again it causes me to walk on some one else.

As for leaving my ball on the green most of the time, I will often tell the group in general that I tend to leave my ball and to please let me know if ever its a distraction. And then as we go from green to green I ask anyone near by enough to my ball (when it happens) if its bothersome.. But of course I will just automatically pick it up every time I know its in or very close to anothers line.

so what's your take (if any) on this and what do you normally do?
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Any putt outside of 3 feet, I mark , pickup and replace my ball. I have tested how well I putt with leaving the ball and reading the putt vs marking the ball and reading the putt and I make an enormous amount more putts when I mark and read. I am pretty fast with marking and reading my putts .. I have never felt like I am slowing other people down.
 
rollin said:
One doesn't even have to be a fast player to see that greens play can often be one of the biggest reasons for slow play. Right up there along with searching for lost balls are both imo the two biggest reasons of them all. Far greater than wrong tee choice or poor play which are imo about the least (with some exceptions) and then of course all the other stuff that falls in between.

Someone mentioned that "even pros miss" as a means to imply why going through the process for all but the very shortest putts is needed. But I say its that very fact which actually works towards implying why its sometimes ridiculous. Of the thousands (or uncountable) amounts of putts I've collectively seen through many years of playing I can honestly say the same amount of putts are hit and missed by those who pickup, mark, wait, replace as those who don't. The only one thing I can say at times I have seen it actually do for certain more than anything else is simply take more time. And its not a detriment towards pace all the time of course but it is a detriment often enough of the times.

Nothing worse when the next group ahead is out in the next fairway hitting approaches and player X (who missed his lag putt) has to now wait for another to clear before then again going through an entire time consuming process and then miss the put. Have two or three in the group or dare i say all four do the same thing on the same green and you can be there for quite a lengthy time.

Ok, I'm ready to get blasted now :)
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I can agree to this.. However, I do feel like Golfers paid their green fees to play the best round they can and if marking and remarking putts affords them that, then so be it.. Now what I have very very very low tolerance for is lost ball searches.. OOOOOOOOOOO it pains me to no end to see people trekking through the trees , bushes and wilderness looking for a ball far longer than they should. IMO, it should be an accepted FACT that amateur golfers lose balls. If ya can't find it in 2 or 3 minutes , then time to drop or move on!! Slow green play I can live with... The blood-hound ball fetcher person is annoying.
 
rollin said:
Are you the type who just has to pickup, mark, clean, replace every single putt? And/or never finishes the 2nd after a lag putt without doing the same again?

To each his own but I have to admit, it sometimes can get a bit ridiculous and even a tad annoying imo. Not to mention at times too time consuming.

For me I tend to leave my ball more often than not unless its real dirty or of course unless in some ones way. I will finish up from lag putting unless of course again it causes me to walk on some one else.

As for leaving my ball on the green most of the time, I will often tell the group in general that I tend to leave my ball and to please let me know if ever its a distraction. And then as we go from green to green I ask anyone near by enough to my ball (when it happens) if its bothersome.. But of course I will just automatically pick it up every time I know its in or very close to anothers line.

so what's your take (if any) on this and what do you normally do?
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I putt until I'm finished unless a) I would have to stand in someone's line for the next putt, or b) I'm playing with someone who has a stick up his rear and is more worried about who's away than he is about pace of play, or c) I've hit such a bad first putt that I have to take some time to figure out the next one.

If it's option "a", then I'll still only mark and lift the ball if it's close enough to the other guy's line to be a distraction. That varies with the people I'm playing with. Some don't care if a ball is as close as a foot off their line, others get their panties in a bunch if there is another ball anywhere on the green. I'd much prefer to play with the former.

D.Witt said:
I can agree to this.. However, I do feel like Golfers paid their green fees to play the best round they can and if marking and remarking putts affords them that, then so be it.. Now what I have very very very low tolerance for is lost ball searches.. OOOOOOOOOOO it pains me to no end to see people trekking through the trees , bushes and wilderness looking for a ball far longer than they should. IMO, it should be an accepted FACT that amateur golfers lose balls. If ya can't find it in 2 or 3 minutes , then time to drop or move on!! Slow green play I can live with... The blood-hound ball fetcher person is annoying.
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The group that takes an unreasonable amount of time on all 18 greens delays play far more than the group that spends 3 or 4 minutes on ball searches on 2 or 3 holes. Personally, if I have to wait on the group ahead, I'd rather do it on the tee than in the fairway. If I can play the entire hole from tee to green with minimal delay, I get into a much better rhythm than I do if I hit my tee shot then wait 5 minutes in the fairway for a group of idiots to putt, mark, replace, plumbob, miss, mark etc.
 
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I just had my longest round at my club in 5 years, 4:28. It was all due to lots of time spent on the green by the foursome in front of us. I had great company and we had plenty of beer and laughed about it but slow play on the greens is normally very hard for me to take without getting impatient. It was the classic slow play foursome, all had staff bags and one of the guys had his name embroidered on his bag and lost 6+ balls from our vantage point. Thank god for good friends and IPA, it was a great day!
 
One of my dad's favorite sayings was, "Circumstances alter cases", and this applies for me on this.
I mark and clean my ball for the initial putt. If it's a 2 foot tap in and I won't stand on someone's line, then I will just finish.
But...outside of that, I will usually remark and wait my turn.
 
If it's within 25 feet of the hole it's a gimme.

JK. I don't pick up and mark after my first unless it's out of 10 feet or so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Of course when you're putting on this crap....

 
Drumdog said:
One of my dad's favorite sayings was, "Circumstances alter cases", and this applies for me on this.
I mark and clean my ball for the initial putt. If it's a 2 foot tap in and I won't stand on someone's line, then I will just finish.
But...outside of that, I will usually remark and wait my turn.
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Exactly what I do.
 
D.Witt said:
I can agree to this.. However, I do feel like Golfers paid their green fees to play the best round they can and if marking and remarking putts affords them that, then so be it.. Now what I have very very very low tolerance for is lost ball searches.. OOOOOOOOOOO it pains me to no end to see people trekking through the trees , bushes and wilderness looking for a ball far longer than they should. IMO, it should be an accepted FACT that amateur golfers lose balls. If ya can't find it in 2 or 3 minutes , then time to drop or move on!! Slow green play I can live with... The blood-hound ball fetcher person is annoying.
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I completely agree with the ball searching thing. As I said earlier I believe both greens play and ball searching are two of the bigger reasons (0f many) for pace issues. But just to discuss your logic, wouldn't it also be in the best interest to play the best round possible (because you paid) via finding a ball vs taking penalties? I mean penalties are strokes too. How can it be ok for one time consuming thing yet not another just because you may feel one is somehow more justifiable than the other? I don't want to see either one be detrimental towards pace and imo both (when taking too much time) are no more or less important than the other.

With that said, I think the 5minute rule is totally ridiculous. I think any members of a group should (when its practical to do so) help search for another's ball and it should be no more than a minute or possibly two at most. A couple or few sets of eyes looking for a solid minute or one set for two minutes should be all required and if not found too bad. The 5 minute search rule just doesn't make any sense when your suppose to play an entire hole in about 12 to 14 minutes. Do this twice in the same hole or have 2 different players at different times do it in the same hole and 10 minutes kills any chance at all at playing a hole on time. But its still also imo just as ridiculous as taking too much time on the greens putting. Too many accumulative minutes spent putting by one or two or all members (if they have the same habits) can kill pace just as badly and even worse.

Its sometimes funny to me how certain things are only ok when its for that person or for something they think is ok.
 
The only reason I ever mark a putt is if it's in somebody else's way. I have a bad habit of rushing my putts when I'm playing alone or with only one other person. If I'm playing part of a foursome I know we're not going anywhere in a hurry anyway, so I'll take my time.
 
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Fourputt said:
I putt until I'm finished unless a) I would have to stand in someone's line for the next putt, or b) I'm playing with someone who has a stick up his rear and is more worried about who's away than he is about pace of play, or c) I've hit such a bad first putt that I have to take some time to figure out the next one.

If it's option "a", then I'll still only mark and lift the ball if it's close enough to the other guy's line to be a distraction. That varies with the people I'm playing with. Some don't care if a ball is as close as a foot off their line, others get their panties in a bunch if there is another ball anywhere on the green. I'd much prefer to play with the former.



The group that takes an unreasonable amount of time on all 18 greens delays play far more than the group that spends 3 or 4 minutes on ball searches on 2 or 3 holes. Personally, if I have to wait on the group ahead, I'd rather do it on the tee than in the fairway. If I can play the entire hole from tee to green with minimal delay, I get into a much better rhythm than I do if I hit my tee shot then wait 5 minutes in the fairway for a group of idiots to putt, mark, replace, plumbob, miss, mark etc.
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So their idiots... gotcha.
 
rollin said:
I completely agree with the ball searching thing. As I said earlier I believe both greens play and ball searching are two of the bigger reasons (0f many) for pace issues. But just to discuss your logic, wouldn't it also be in the best interest to play the best round possible (because you paid) via finding a ball vs taking penalties? I mean penalties are strokes too. How can it be ok for one time consuming thing yet not another just because you may feel one is somehow more justifiable than the other? I don't want to see either one be detrimental towards pace and imo both (when taking too much time) are no more or less important than the other.

With that said, I think the 5minute rule is totally ridiculous. I think any members of a group should (when its practical to do so) help search for another's ball and it should be no more than a minute or possibly two at most. A couple or few sets of eyes looking for a solid minute or one set for two minutes should be all required and if not found too bad. The 5 minute search rule just doesn't make any sense when your suppose to play an entire hole in about 12 to 14 minutes. Do this twice in the same hole or have 2 different players at different times do it in the same hole and 10 minutes kills any chance at all at playing a hole on time. But its still also imo just as ridiculous as taking too much time on the greens putting. Too many accumulative minutes spent putting by one or two or all members (if they have the same habits) can kill pace just as badly and even worse.

Its sometimes funny to me how certain things are only ok when its for that person or for something they think is ok.
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I, in no way think looking for a ball is a waste of time... but there is a point when it's become too long. I also in no way think a person taking too long to putt and leave the green is okay either. I think everyone is allowed their fair amount of time for both. My point about the time difference between putting and ball searching were about people who take ALOT of time looking for their ball.
 
rollin said:
Are you the type who just has to pickup, mark, clean, replace every single putt? And/or never finishes the 2nd after a lag putt without doing the same again?

To each his own but I have to admit, it sometimes can get a bit ridiculous and even a tad annoying imo. Not to mention at times too time consuming.

For me I tend to leave my ball more often than not unless its real dirty or of course unless in some ones way. I will finish up from lag putting unless of course again it causes me to walk on some one else.

As for leaving my ball on the green most of the time, I will often tell the group in general that I tend to leave my ball and to please let me know if ever its a distraction. And then as we go from green to green I ask anyone near by enough to my ball (when it happens) if its bothersome.. But of course I will just automatically pick it up every time I know its in or very close to anothers line.

so what's your take (if any) on this and what do you normally do?
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It sounds like you spend more energy asking playing partners if your ball is an annoyance than it would take to just do the normal thing and mark it. Why put the burden on them to do something uncomfortable (ask you to mark the ball)?

If the putt is close I just tap it in. If it's in the 2-3 foot range with any break or longer than that I'm marking and making sure of the line; cleaning the ball isn't normally a big concern, but if I've got the ball in my hand anyway I may give it a swipe. When I'm by myself I don't mark those 2nd putts, I just adjust the ball's alignment line to my line and putt.
 
tgtt said:
Really? Giant holes in the green and people are worried about a few grains of sand? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just never seen it and don't understand why it would happen.
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Depending on the time post aeration, especially if they use the small punches, the ball can be rolling pretty true, but pick up a nontrivial amount of sand, especially if it's the morning and greens are a bit wet.
 
D.Witt said:
I, in no way think looking for a ball is a waste of time... but there is a point when it's become too long. I also in no way think a person taking too long to putt and leave the green is okay either. I think everyone is allowed their fair amount of time for both. My point about the time difference between putting and ball searching were about people who take ALOT of time looking for their ball.
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What you said was:

If ya can't find it in 2 or 3 minutes , then time to drop or move on!!
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2 or 3 minutes is definitely not a lot of time to search for a ball. It's more than I usually take, unless the search occurs while we are waiting for the group ahead of us anyway, but it still isn't excessive, and most relatively experienced players will catch up again after a search. Making up a couple of minutes is nothing, and it certainly isn't the leading cause for 5 hour rounds. Time wasted by excessive adherence to formalities on every green is a much larger contributor to slow play, simply because there are 18 opportunities to screw around. It's rare for any group to actually lose balls on more than 3 or 4 holes. If they are that bad, then there is more than just the lost ball that's causing the problem - wrong course, wrong tees, bad course management - add those to a group of players who are probably slow on the greens too (and probably slow in everything they do) and then you have a real problem.

Blaming any one act for slow play is being shortsighted. Slow play is almost always a result of a player or group that just never makes an effort to do anything at a reasonable pace, and the comedy of errors adds up to creating a logjam on the course.
 
Fourputt said:
What you said was:



2 or 3 minutes is definitely not a lot of time to search for a ball. It's more than I usually take, unless the search occurs while we are waiting for the group ahead of us anyway, but it still isn't excessive, and most relatively experienced players will catch up again after a search. Making up a couple of minutes is nothing, and it certainly isn't the leading cause for 5 hour rounds. Time wasted by excessive adherence to formalities on every green is a much larger contributor to slow play, simply because there are 18 opportunities to screw around. It's rare for any group to actually lose balls on more than 3 or 4 holes. If they are that bad, then there is more than just the lost ball that's causing the problem - wrong course, wrong tees, bad course management - add those to a group of players who are probably slow on the greens too (and probably slow in everything they do) and then you have a real problem.

Blaming any one act for slow play is being shortsighted. Slow play is almost always a result of a player or group that just never makes an effort to do anything at a reasonable pace, and the comedy of errors adds up to creating a logjam on the course.
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Again:
I, in no way think looking for a ball is a waste of time... but there is a point when it's become too long. (is that not true?). I also in no way think a person taking too long to putt and leave the green is okay either. (agreeing with you). I think everyone is allowed their fair amount of time for both.(Is that not True?) My point about the time difference between putting and ball searching were about people who take ALOT of time looking for their ball.

Since "2 to 3 minutes" seems to be causing a misunderstanding, I can say that even I, I am pretty sure if timed, take longer than 2 or 3 minutes to look for a ball. I was making a general statement simply to say that if you can't find your ball in a reasonable amount of time, its time to drop and move on. Next time I will use general terms instead of exact numbers in absence of a stop watch while playing.
 
D.Witt said:
Again:
I, in no way think looking for a ball is a waste of time... but there is a point when it's become too long. (is that not true?). I also in no way think a person taking too long to putt and leave the green is okay either. (agreeing with you). I think everyone is allowed their fair amount of time for both.(Is that not True?) My point about the time difference between putting and ball searching were about people who take ALOT of time looking for their ball.

Since "2 to 3 minutes" seems to be causing a misunderstanding, I can say that even I, I am pretty sure if timed, take longer than 2 or 3 minutes to look for a ball. I was making a general statement simply to say that if you can't find your ball in a reasonable amount of time, its time to drop and move on. Next time I will use general terms instead of exact numbers in absence of a stop watch while playing.
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As I said above, I rarely even take 2 minutes on a search. If the ball is hiding in an area where it seems like it should be locatable, then I may look for a bit longer than if it's in an area where finding it is doubtful, and even if found, it would be unlikely to be playable. In the second case, I'll usually give a perfunctory glance at the area, then head over and continue play with my provisional ball.

On the green, I will continue putting unless I have to stand some else's line. Since I rarely leave my first putt more than 4 feet from the hole, I don't usually feel the need to mark. I've already read the green (and gotten more feedback from my first putt), so I don't have to waste any more time with that. I pick the line, approach the ball, take my practice stroke, then hit the ball. It takes about 10-15 seconds at most. If I feel that the putt requires more effort than that, only then will I mark and wait my turn, but that's the exception rather than the rule. Since I passionately hate waiting in the fairway, I do my best to avoid creating that condition for the players behind me, and clear out of the green area as fast as possible as a courtesy to them.

I try to always be aware of the location of the groups in front of and behind me, to ensure that my group is not causing any issues. In these days of 4½ hour rounds, I will do all I can to not be part of the problem. That includes not defending any sort of act that may contribute to slow play.
 
Fourputt said:
As I said above, I rarely even take 2 minutes on a search. If the ball is hiding in an area where it seems like it should be locatable, then I may look for a bit longer than if it's in an area where finding it is doubtful, and even if found, it would be unlikely to be playable. In the second case, I'll usually give a perfunctory glance at the area, then head over and continue play with my provisional ball.

On the green, I will continue putting unless I have to stand some else's line. Since I rarely leave my first putt more than 4 feet from the hole, I don't usually feel the need to mark. I've already read the green (and gotten more feedback from my first putt), so I don't have to waste any more time with that. I pick the line, approach the ball, take my practice stroke, then hit the ball. It takes about 10-15 seconds at most. If I feel that the putt requires more effort than that, only then will I mark and wait my turn, but that's the exception rather than the rule. Since I passionately hate waiting in the fairway, I do my best to avoid creating that condition for the players behind me, and clear out of the green area as fast as possible as a courtesy to them.

I try to always be aware of the location of the groups in front of and behind me, to ensure that my group is not causing any issues. In these days of 4½ hour rounds, I will do all I can to not be part of the problem. That includes not defending any sort of act that may contribute to slow play.
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I've tried to putt "fast" and learn to read the green "faster" , it's something I try to work on but I noticed I miss more putts.. I have a friend that reads and putts very quickly and he is a great putter...It's a skill I envy since I take a little more time to get the same result. I don't slow play down at all, but I try to work on moving as quickly as comfortably possibly. I also notice if it's a course I play regularly I don't take as much time as a first-time course when on the green.
 
Fourputt said:
I try to always be aware of the location of the groups in front of and behind me, to ensure that my group is not causing any issues. In these days of 4½ hour rounds, I will do all I can to not be part of the problem. That includes not defending any sort of act that may contribute to slow play.
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This ^^^^ is very well said statement. Its really pretty simple. Its about having a simple awareness (or sense) of pace and knowing if/when you or your group could be doing things to hurt it. But what seems to be the hard part for too many is to then care and/or know what to do about it to change your potential problem. And too many people too often become very hypocritical because they complain about it, have all the answers as to why, and are very quick to blame others for things that aren't really detrimental towards it, but some how magically never ever even consider the fact that they themselves take too much time doing things (and in the case of this thread being too slow on the greens is often enough a big one).

Too often pace becomes a problem unless its about that person. Blame the guy not playing well, blame the guy playing the wrong tees, the guy searching for a ball, etc , etc... but somehow its completely ok when his own playing practices anywhere and/or (in this case) on the greens is to take place.

while on a green, someone in the group notices they are behind and says ---- "hey guys we're falling a bit behind"
All others look up and one or two say ---- "Yea your right, we better pick it up a little"
But amazingly still do absolutely nothing at all to change anything at all about what they do to actually then help to "pick it up a little". Its just mindboggling to me that they are well aware, even agreed, and it might even be one of them who mentioned it all in the first place. But yet when its his/their turn it magically doesn't mean a darn thing anymore. They change nothing at all. Continue the practice of not finishing, picking up and marking evrything, taking all the time they need to do it all etc, etc.... Time somehow magically has all the meaning in the world............ right up until the very second they are the one who get to use it.......... and then it doesn't matter anymore.

 
The real problem is that slow play is usually caused by an accumulation of things. Too may players complain about one thing that they observe, never understanding or acknowledging that it's only one small piece of the puzzle. Most players are themselves contributing without even realizing it by being conscientious about one or two things, then blowing the improvements those acts make by doing something else that cancels them out.

Little things like wiping your previous club off during the next normal break in the flow of the round - sometimes that means immediately, other times it's not until you get to your ball for the next shot. Walkers get a slight advantage because they can wipe and put away while walking to their ball, but riders can save just as much time by simply using their heads.

Putting your bag or trolley between the hole and the next green when the course layout allows it. Placing your wedge on the green between the hole and your bag so that you don't have to backtrack even a few feet to fetch it. These little steps allow you to clear the green as quickly as possible for the group behind you. If you don't do them, and if your entire group of 4 makes the same mistakes, then believe it or not, you have right there on one hole added a minute or two to the round. Multiply by 18 and you are the problem, despite your belief that you are not a slow player.

So for those who think that constantly marking and lifting unnecessarily doesn't add significantly to the round, you are wrong. If you take 15 extra seconds on each hole, times 18, that's 4½ minutes, times 4 players in your group, that's 18 minutes you could have saved by continuous putting.

Little things add up to big problems.
 
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