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You vs Tour Players - Scrambling #Own125

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tequila4kapp said:
I don't see why this has to be so complex. Getting the ball up and down always matters to everyone.
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I'm not seeing anything as "complex". A definition is a definition. And I agree that getting the ball up and down matters to everyone.

My point is that Pelz is saying that 125 in matters more than 125.1 and beyond. That's not factually accurate or backed up by any study. Even his own study that he is quoting is in regards to percentage of up and down, not ranking the importance of each type of shot like he haphazardly does in the video when he says a rank "might be a 7" or "that importance has got to be a 9".
 
-CRW- said:
I'm not seeing anything as "complex". A definition is a definition. And I agree that getting the ball up and down matters to everyone.

My point is that Pelz is saying that 125 in matters more than 125.1 and beyond. That's not factually accurate or backed up by any study. Even his own study that he is quoting is in regards to percentage of up and down, not ranking the importance of each type of shot like he haphazardly does in the video when he says a rank "might be a 7" or "that importance has got to be a 9".
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If you have some spare time maybe take a look at his Short Game Bible book. It goes into his methodology and studies in detail, which can't happen in a short video.
 
This is a nice campaign to sell wedges, but I want to mention something. The biggest problem high handicappers face is getting to the green in sufficient strokes to have a chance at an up and down for par. Most of the time high handicappers face an up and down for bogey. This is why scrambling statistics for bogey golfers and high handicappers is so poor.

Practice full swing 65%, short game 25%, Putting 10%.

My last round my short game was on. I couldn't miss with it. The problem was 43 putts. It does you no good when you two and three putt from that situation. This indicates the problem lies elsewhere. Why did I need those 18 extra strokes to get on the green in the first place?
 
I guess, I stop pondering what new driver and or driver shaft I don't need now.
 
I'm on the way to the range right now. I'm glad I saw this thread. Will be working on nothing but short game today.


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Good video and I would say I'm probably even a lower percentage than they stated. My short game sucks.
 
InTheRough said:
This is a nice campaign to sell wedges, but I want to mention something. The biggest problem high handicappers face is getting to the green in sufficient strokes to have a chance at an up and down for par. Most of the time high handicappers face an up and down for bogey. This is why scrambling statistics for bogey golfers and high handicappers is so poor.

Practice full swing 65%, short game 25%, Putting 10%.

My last round my short game was on. I couldn't miss with it. The problem was 43 putts. It does you no good when you two and three putt from that situation. This indicates the problem lies elsewhere. Why did I need those 18 extra strokes to get on the green in the first place?
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You are right that this is the reasoning behind the campaign. That said, unless one has a pretty lousy set of wedges, the reason for short game deficiency is 98%+ indian and a miniscule amount bow and arrow.
 
InTheRough said:
This is a nice campaign to sell wedges, but I want to mention something. The biggest problem high handicappers face is getting to the green in sufficient strokes to have a chance at an up and down for par. Most of the time high handicappers face an up and down for bogey. This is why scrambling statistics for bogey golfers and high handicappers is so poor.

Practice full swing 65%, short game 25%, Putting 10%.

My last round my short game was on. I couldn't miss with it. The problem was 43 putts. It does you no good when you two and three putt from that situation. This indicates the problem lies elsewhere. Why did I need those 18 extra strokes to get on the green in the first place?
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Maybe it's just me but I combine putting and chipping to the overall definition of short game. 43 putts does not equal a short game being on for me.

I play with a ton of high handicappers from my club to other THP'ers. There are a few older gentlemen that play in our league that can't hit it but 150 yards from the tee. That is not going to get any better due to their age and physical being. But they hit the 150 yard shot and then another 150 yard shot around the green. They all have amazing short games because they have to. Yes, they are putting for par and bogey but that is going to be the game they play because the tee game isn't going to get better. But they can always work, maintain and get better with their short game.
 
You vs Tour Players - Scrambling #Own125

InTheRough said:
This is a nice campaign to sell wedges, but I want to mention something. The biggest problem high handicappers face is getting to the green in sufficient strokes to have a chance at an up and down for par. Most of the time high handicappers face an up and down for bogey. This is why scrambling statistics for bogey golfers and high handicappers is so poor.

Practice full swing 65%, short game 25%, Putting 10%.

My last round my short game was on. I couldn't miss with it. The problem was 43 putts. It does you no good when you two and three putt from that situation. This indicates the problem lies elsewhere. Why did I need those 18 extra strokes to get on the green in the first place?
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While this video covers the wedge game, those 43 putts you took are a focus of this campaign as well - there are a LOT of wasted strokes that can't be fixed by beating balls with full swings at the range. Yes, penalty strokes can kill a round, but most bogey golfers are going to be around the green at least in regulation. If they can go up and down even 25% of the time for par, that's a huge improvement.

My driving statistics have been nearly the same for two years in terms of accuracy. Improvements in my game about in that 125 (where I usually am off the tee) are probably the biggest reason my handicap has dropped the 10 strokes it has.
 
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There was an article in Golf Digest with Tony Finau and it centered around putting and driving. If you can do those 2 things, you will score pretty well.

If I looked at my best rounds, I probably did pretty well in both of those.

In regards to this campaign, I think it is actually pretty accurate for the guys that are solid players but need to shave off those last 4-5 strokes. If you have a repeatable swing, spending an hour hitting balls is probably not going to lower your score as much as improving your short game.

For a hack like myself, the quickest way to lower scores is a better full swing.

-CRW- said:
I agree somewhat, but the video is already comparing tour pros to amateurs.

A better way to look at is "if you can't putt, you can't score. if you can't drive, you can't play." It doesn't have to be a driver, but means performance off the tee in general.
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I always find it odd to see high handicaps or people who struggle constantly say that short game isn't as important...yet lower handicaps or people who are better at short game say it's one of the most important factors. Maybe someone arguing against it should step back and ponder that for a second. Not trying to throw stones here, as I have been in the trying to break 100 camp before. But the biggest thing that took me from trying to break 100, to 90, to 80 was almost all short game.
 
-CRW- said:
Another issue I've seen here is that people assume "up and down" means saving par, and it's not the same. Up and down means getting "up" onto the green in one shot and "down" (into the hole) with the subsequent shot, and is most often used in conversation when one misses their approach shot.
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#Cookie said:
Thought the video said up/down when green was missed. I don't read that necessarily as being for par but I can see it both ways. If your 2nd shot hits a tree on a par 4 then from 150 you miss the green then hit a chip and make a putt that's still up/down to me even though it's not for par.
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When in doubt, double-check the numbers.

http://www.pgatour.com/stats.html

Pros hit 70% of their GIR (defined as the ball touching the putting surface by the par-2 stroke), and scramble (make par or better after failing to reach the putting green by the par-2 stroke) 60% of the time. By definition, that's either up and down for par or a chip-in for birdie. Talking about "up and down for 8" is nonsense in this context.

cbaker2882 said:
I always find it odd to see high handicaps or people who struggle constantly say that short game isn't as important...yet lower handicaps or people who are better at short game say it's one of the most important factors. Maybe someone arguing against it should step back and ponder that for a second. Not trying to throw stones here, as I have been in the trying to break 100 camp before. But the biggest thing that took me from trying to break 100, to 90, to 80 was almost all short game.
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Amen. Practicing short game for Legacy is what took me from struggling to break 100 to trying to put together a decent round to break 90 on any course you throw me at. From what I've seen, you can have a decent round of golf every time you play if you do two things:

1. Keep the ball in the short grass regardless of distance
2. Have a good wedge and putting game
 
43 putts was really an off day, and the greens while appearing decent were quite uneven - it's fall and it's poa and they had gotten shaggy. But I separate the stats. Putting is putting. I haven't practiced much with it this season due to limited practice time. It's the easiest club to cut strokes with. All it takes is getting out there and spending some time on the practice greens during the season with your putter practicing your short putts and practicing lag putting. I've neglected this, but next spring it'll come back.

Short game? I call that my wedge through 9 iron game. Chipping, hitting 30 yd lob shots, 50 yd lob shots, bunker shots, short approach shots, that stuff. 30% of my 100 ball bucket is spent hitting lob shots and chipping to targets.

Most of my problem lies with the full swing stuff. Getting a GIR is one thing but if you leave yourself in the next county on a large undulating green it can be tough lagging it.

Of course after a certain age when one's distance goes down, one will rely on the wedge game and putting more and more to keep the scores from ballooning. But there are still holes where if you can't get off the tee, you're dead.
 
Dave Alvarado said:
When in doubt, double-check the numbers.

http://www.pgatour.com/stats.html

Pros hit 70% of their GIR (defined as the ball touching the putting surface by the par-2 stroke), and scramble (make par or better after failing to reach the putting green by the par-2 stroke) 60% of the time. By definition, that's either up and down for par or a chip-in for birdie. Talking about "up and down for 8" is nonsense in this context.


Amen. Practicing short game for Legacy is what took me from struggling to break 100 to trying to put together a decent round to break 90 on any course you throw me at. From what I've seen, you can have a decent round of golf every time you play if you do two things:

1. Keep the ball in the short grass regardless of distance
2. Have a good wedge and putting game
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Thanks, good to know that as an 11 handicap that getting up and down is nonsense unless it's to actually save par or make birdie.

Call it what you will but after blowing one in the water and then getting up and down to save bogey....that's an "up and down" for this amateur hacker.
 
This is pretty simple I feel. Us amateurs can and will save shots fast by improving our short games from 125 and in.
 
Man this is eye opening. Tells you exactly where we should be working on our games.
 
I'll have to pull up some stats later. I've been tracking true scrambling for three years (making par when missing GIR). This year I started tracking true "Up &Down" (by this I mean anytime I have a chip shot and then get the ball in the hole with that chip or with 1 putt following).
 
Pelz could talk about paint drying and I'd be all ears, love the guy. Pretty simple presentation as well. The closer you are to the hole the more important the shot.
 
Great video and I believe it completely. Short game practice needs to be more important than it is for me currently. Very logical but overlooked


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Nate said:
I could listen to Pelz preach/speak on just about anything.
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Right there with you Nate!

Great video, information to chew on for sure. No reason to dissect the goes into and comes out of what the numbers represent. Bottom line, you want to score, work your backside off on the 125 and in.....all the way in.
 
-CRW- said:
I'm not insinuating anything. I shared an opinion. I've never understood why so many people here take opinions so personal.
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Who took an opinion personally? I responded to what I found to be an unfounded opinion about the important of a tee game vs a short game and you cut my response into 1/10th and started talking about taking things personally. You used a sample of PGA golfers who are very consistent off the tee and successful, and I trumped you with one of the best scramblers in the entire history of the game. There is no perfect science here, it's about personal preference and where you intend to focus your time.

That said, you mention the priority being on simply 'keeping the ball in play' which is a bit short sighted for driving statistics including length and tendencies. I know plenty of guys who play ugly tee games successfully and focus on their short game where the holes are won. I also know a handful of guys who absolutely obliterate the ball but are terrible around the green --- I LOVE playing against them.

Don't let my 'opinion' cloud your understanding of what I take personally. I think the video was very well done, and reminds golfers how important it is to focus on the locations where we take the most strokes. You are wrapped up in the bad golfers hitting every tee shot OB and play for 8 on each hole (I have never witnessed this phenomenon). But you talk about your 'research' confirming it, and I am talking about working directly with a lot of golfers trying to improve, finding their short game to be the primary location for score improvement.

Except MikeDean441. He needs to learn how to hit a driver again..... and a greenside wedge.
 
Not my research. Just about every modern study says iron and tee shots are more important than short game when it comes to shooting low scores.
 
-CRW- said:
Not my research. Just about every modern study says iron and tee shots are more important than short game when it comes to shooting low scores.
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But this thread is about #OWN125.... Let's not get wrapped about the other side of 125. If you don't agree fine, state it and move along.
 
I know that 3 years ago when my game was the best it's ever been, I spent more time practicing from 100 yards and in than I did on any other aspect of my game and it paid off...my handicap dropped about 5 strokes and I played the best golf of my life.

In the last few years I put more importance on my long game and my scores and handicap have suffered.
 
I always assumed "short game" didn't equate to your prowess with a putter. Is that an accurate assumption?
 
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