You vs Tour Players - Scrambling #Own125

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Not my research. Just about every modern study says iron and tee shots are more important than short game when it comes to shooting low scores.

"just about every"? I doubt that. And based on the topic of this thread, it's looks like you're 0 for 1.
 
I know for myself my scoring sucked this year because of lack of short game practice time. Getting off the tee was more inconsistent than the season before but not more than a few percentage points. What really hurt was scrambling.
When you miss the green getting up and down becomes all the more important to score. Not having that part of my game working was the statistical difference in my game in the last year along with - putting average. And the reason for that is, I am not getting the ball close enough with my wedge game to have a chance to make a putt.
 
I thing the stat about getting up and down 30% of the time for a scratch golfer is on, and it makes me feel better about the state of my game. I do think driving the ball well is critical to me scoring, certainly more importance than the 3 Pelz gave it. When I drive it well it take so much pressure off the rest of my game because I'm likely to hit 14+ greens on a great driving day.
 
Not my research. Just about every modern study says iron and tee shots are more important than short game when it comes to shooting low scores.

I have made bogeys, doubles and even worse with perfect tee shots........but I have saved pars from horrible drives and horrible approach shots with a great pitch or chip or a great putt.

Dont remember ever "saving par" with a great drive

Sure great driving or great approach shots lead to better scoring......but short game "SAVES" strokes even when you fail at your long game.
 
I was wrong, I actually have my scramble stats for the last 6 years:
2015 - 26%
2014 - 26%
2013 - 22%
2012 - 19%
2011 - 17%
2010 - 10%

Saw my handicap decrease from an average of around 15 to an average around an 8 over that time. So for me at least there is something to be gained by increasing scramble percentage.


Up & Down for 2015 - 37% (This can be up & down for any score)
 
Fascinating this turned into a long game vs short game argument rather than focusing on the message of the video (other than selling wedges like some have pointed out).

Fact: Most amateurs aren't good in getting up and down. Fact: Most need to get better to shoot better. Fact: Your short game improves you shoot better scores.

By all means work on that long game all you want. I love hitting drives as much as everyone else. But for me I can always recover from a bad drive or a bad approach shot if my up and down game is working like I want it.
 
I like the last quote and I can tell you from personal experience it is so true at the college level. Unfortunately I was a below average putter when I played in college.


[SIZE=+1]Putting[/SIZE]
Thoughts about the game within the game

I've heard people say putting is 50 percent technique and 50 percent mental. I really believe it is 50 percent technique and 90 percent positive thinking, see, but that adds up to 140 percent, which is why nobody is 100 percent sure how to putt.
- Chi Chi Rodriguez

The game of golf would lose a great deal if croquet mallets and billiard cues were allowed on the putting green.
- Ernest Hemingway

Half of golf is fun; the other half is putting.
- Peter Dobereiner

Missing a short putt does not mean you have to hit your next drive out of bounds.
- Henry Cotton

Prayer never works for me on the golf course. That may have something to do with my being a terrible putter.
- Rev. Billy Graham

Around a clubhouse they'll tell you even God has to practise his putting. In fact, even Nicklaus does.
- Jim Murray

While, on the whole, playing through the green is the part most trying to the temper, putting is that most trying to the nerves. There is always the hope that a bad drive may be redeemed by a fine approach shot, or that a 'foozle' with the brassy may be balanced by some brilliant performance with the iron. But when the stage of putting-out has been reached no further illusions are possible.
- Earl Balfour

Hitting a golf ball and putting have nothing in common. They're two different games. You work all your life to perfect a repeating swing that will get you to the greens, and then you have to try to do something that is totally unrelated. There shouldn't be any cups, just flag sticks. And then the man who hit the most fairways and greens and got closest to the pins would be the tournament winner.
- Ben Hogan

A good player who is a great putter is a match for any golfer. A great hitter who cannot putt is a match for no one.
- Ben Sayers


Read more at http://www.golftoday.co.uk/noticeboard/quotes/putting.html#sbXddDApV8LlSahs.99
 
Not my research. Just about every modern study says iron and tee shots are more important than short game when it comes to shooting low scores.
I read the linked article to say the best way for professionals to gain strokes against the field is to hit approach shots closer to the pin (not that the best way to lower scores is to hit better full shots).

First point: this actually brings us back to Pelz...the advantage gained from the drive only has statistical significance if the next shots ends up close enough to the pin (which it rarely does from further than 125 out - check the PGA stats from last week for an example).

Second point: notice the practical affect of the study. Assume a 450 yard par 4. Bubba (cited in the article) hits his drive 315 (his 2015 average). That leaves him 135 in ... or effectively the pro's version of #own125.

Third point: strokes gained over the field in a professional tournament is not the same thing as amateurs improving against their normal performance, which is what #own125 is really getting to. Apples and oranges.
 
Improvement from 125 and in has been the focus this past year. Hit my lowest HCP this year...hmmmm.
 
Video makes perfect sense to me. The closer you get to the hole, the less opportunities to make up for an errant shot to save strokes.
 
Funny to see this video today. I played a round from the Senior's tees, as my playing group was all older fellows. As a result, I was routinely going driver/4-wood and a wedge of some kind into the green. What did I end up shooting? 87, about the same as I always do. My approach shots, even from inside 120 yards, weren't spot on, and I putted poorly. I scrambled successfully once in 9 chances. That's a big pile of nope for a guy who would love to grind off the last 5 strokes and get to a sub-10 index. While it's nice to know that I'm about on the average for recovering from missed greens, it doesn't cover the sting of 3-putts and cruddy play from inside 100 yards.

A good game from inside 125 yards, as I see it, means more pars when you miss greens, and more birdies on shorter par 4's. It also means more birdies when you lay up on par 5's. You won't find a golfer who wouldn't love to have those things going for them. While I don't 100% agree with Pelz's assignment of importance (learning to get keep the ball in play off the tee is the only chance anyone has of making par), I do agree that there's simply no making up a duffed chip or a skulled wedge shot, really.
 
Improvement from 125 and in has been the focus this past year. Hit my lowest HCP this year...hmmmm.

Probably just a fluke.....like your calf DNA.
 
I'll maintain the same thoughts I always have in these discussions. I think its all important from the tee and right on through till we hole it. I think the shorter stuff does become more important as we get better. Meaning once one is at the point where his tee and long/mid games are basically a given, it then is the shorter stuff that allows him to go and/or keep lower scores.

By "given" , I mean one is most often not errant, and is in play and also moving forward all fairly efficiently through 18 holes with only few exceptions. Basically a given that one is on or near the greens in a respectable amount of strokes. That in itself will usually keep a high capper from high scores (relatively speaking) because its where he/she can lose a ton of them. But then its a good short game that will drive him even lower. And I think that's the difference it makes.
 
I'm not seeing anything as "complex". A definition is a definition. And I agree that getting the ball up and down matters to everyone.

My point is that Pelz is saying that 125 in matters more than 125.1 and beyond. That's not factually accurate or backed up by any study. Even his own study that he is quoting is in regards to percentage of up and down, not ranking the importance of each type of shot like he haphazardly does in the video when he says a rank "might be a 7" or "that importance has got to be a 9".

65% of shots are from 125 and in. That includes putts, chips, pitches, sand shots, approaches. 45% of non putts are with a wedge. More than half of a persons score comes from 125 and in. So even if a person struggles from 125.1 and further they are still going to spend more of their score from 125 and in.

i shot in the low 90s for a lomg time and the reason I never broke 90 wasn't because of my wayward tee shots but because I couldn't hit a GIR or get up/dwn when I didn't. To me it's simple, even if a person struggles off the tee they will only take a couple strokes to get it into position to have a short iron or wedge in their hand within a couple shots but then they miss the green, stub or skull a chip finally get on the green and more times than not 2-3 putt.

It's not just Pelz that talks about these being critical areas but many of the gurus. I wouldn't doubt it if the guys at Gauntlet this year or Thegrandaddy last year didn't get similar insight from Roger effin Cleveland
 
I would like to introduce you to a golfer who has had a relatively decent run on tour thanks to a sometimes WILD tee game, and an impeccable short game. Tiger Woods.

"just about every"? I doubt that. And based on the topic of this thread, it's looks like you're 0 for 1.

In his heyday, the main reason that Tiger was so dominant was because of his approach shots, NOT his short game. It's all detailed in Mark Broadie's book, "Every Shot Counts." You should pick it up, has tons of real-world PGA Tour data as well as data on tons of amateur golfers showing where they lose shots.

Also, pretty interesting what Pelz said about this to the author of the article that CRW excerpted:

I actually did ask Dave Pelz about Broadie's work but for space reasons was unable to include his response in the article. He does not disagree with Broadie's data. Pelz said, ”If you could improve any one aspect of your game to pro level, what would you choose? It would be the long game, absolutely. The problem is, you can't. It would take forever and you still couldn’t get there.” Pelz and Broadie agree that for almost everyone, the best and surest way to lower your score is to work on the short game, because rapid improvement is possible there, quickly. Making substantial improvements in the long game takes months and years of hard work. But that's a different issue than where players actually lose the most strokes to par or to the field.

The marketing campaign is nice, because most golfers are never going to be able to put in the time and effort to hit it like a professional or high-level amateur. Of course, whether players take the time to work on their short game as opposed to beating balls on the driving range is another story altogether. But overall, the long game still has a higher impact on score than the short game.
 
short game is a marketing scheme.
 
Thanks, good to know that as an 11 handicap that getting up and down is nonsense unless it's to actually save par or make birdie.

Call it what you will but after blowing one in the water and then getting up and down to save bogey....that's an "up and down" for this amateur hacker.
I think I came across wrong. I'm saying that the stats in the video, at least on the pro side, are backed up by the PGA numbers. I track my up and downs the same as you--if I get "up and down" for double bogey I call that a win. But like in the video, I bet your scrambling to save par percentage is probably about where the video says it is.
 
I'll have to pull up some stats later. I've been tracking true scrambling for three years (making par when missing GIR). This year I started tracking true "Up &Down" (by this I mean anytime I have a chip shot and then get the ball in the hole with that chip or with 1 putt following).

Barry, just curious if you know what your GIR % was for those years as well. It might be interesting to compare those numbers also.
 
In his heyday, the main reason that Tiger was so dominant was because of his approach shots, NOT his short game. It's all detailed in Mark Broadie's book, "Every Shot Counts." You should pick it up, has tons of real-world PGA Tour data as well as data on tons of amateur golfers showing where they lose shots.

Also, pretty interesting what Pelz said about this to the author of the article that CRW excerpted:



The marketing campaign is nice, because most golfers are never going to be able to put in the time and effort to hit it like a professional or high-level amateur. Of course, whether players take the time to work on their short game as opposed to beating balls on the driving range is another story altogether. But overall, the long game still has a higher impact on score than the short game.

That's so vague.....improve the long game how? Longer? Straighter? Higher shots? Better equipment? Lift more weights? Someone is hitting 250yd drives, so improve to 260yd drives? I'm having a hard time seeing the road map in improving the long game.
 
Great video...staggering stats.
Chutt and 1 putt
 
65% of shots are from 125 and in. That includes putts, chips, pitches, sand shots, approaches. 45% of non putts are with a wedge. More than half of a persons score comes from 125 and in. So even if a person struggles from 125.1 and further they are still going to spend more of their score from 125 and in.

i shot in the low 90s for a lomg time and the reason I never broke 90 wasn't because of my wayward tee shots but because I couldn't hit a GIR or get up/dwn when I didn't. To me it's simple, even if a person struggles off the tee they will only take a couple strokes to get it into position to have a short iron or wedge in their hand within a couple shots but then they miss the green, stub or skull a chip finally get on the green and more times than not 2-3 putt.

It's not just Pelz that talks about these being critical areas but many of the gurus. I wouldn't doubt it if the guys at Gauntlet this year or Thegrandaddy last year didn't get similar insight from Roger effin Cleveland

For many golfers, putting is 35-40% or more of the game. Last Friday I shot 71 and had 35 shots with the putter. I had no 3 putts, putted from off the green twice, and 2 of my 3 birdies were 2 putt birdies on par 5's. That means I missed 2 eagle putts and 13 birdie putts and only made 1, which was a 3 footer!! A PGA Pro would have shot 67 or better on my ball striking that day.

I don't think many golfers actually spend 40% of their practice time putting and many have never had a putting lesson or been fit properly for a putter. It's easy to get wrapped up hitting full shots on the range and completely ignore chipping, pitching, and putting. I make this mistake all the time.
 
I read the linked article to say the best way for professionals to gain strokes against the field is to hit approach shots closer to the pin (not that the best way to lower scores is to hit better full shots).
Interesting, I wonder if that means that the pros who are better at gaining strokes against the field take that 125 number and make it bigger. Meaning they're throwing darts from 145, or 165. For sure if you're as precise with a 7i as you are with a wedge, you're going to drop your score. Still, that doesn't mean go bang away with your driver, it means start with the wedges, gain precision, then try to carry that precision to longer and longer clubs.

Another interesting set of numbers I saw on the PGA site was things like GIR from off the fairway, scrambling from the rough/sand, etc. What distinguishes a pro from the rest of us hackers is their ability to recover from a bad tee or approach shot. The discipline to practice those shots is the same as practicing with your wedges--it's not sexy, and you don't get to look like a driving range hero, but it drops your scores.

Another thread derailed....effing quality
Is it surprising? Look at the attention new driver threads get vs. wedge threads. Hackers like big numbers.
 
short game is a marketing scheme.

Nice of you to jump to conclusions. FWIW, you've had a nice drop in your handicap this year, is it because your short game got much better or you're hitting more fairways and greens? I'm genuinely curious.

Also, for those wanting to see studies, this is from the book "Every Shot Counts" looking at amateurs, not pros.

table-6-7.png
 
Interesting, I wonder if that means that the pros who are better at gaining strokes against the field take that 125 number and make it bigger. Meaning they're throwing darts from 145, or 165. For sure if you're as precise with a 7i as you are with a wedge, you're going to drop your score. Still, that doesn't mean go bang away with your driver, it means start with the wedges, gain precision, then try to carry that precision to longer and longer clubs.

Another interesting set of numbers I saw on the PGA site was things like GIR from off the fairway, scrambling from the rough/sand, etc. What distinguishes a pro from the rest of us hackers is their ability to recover from a bad tee or approach shot. The discipline to practice those shots is the same as practicing with your wedges--it's not sexy, and you don't get to look like a driving range hero, but it drops your scores.


Is it surprising? Look at the attention new driver threads get vs. wedge threads. Hackers like big numbers.

What is being marketed by #Own125? It's not tied to a club. What's the message they are trying to convey. Work on the short game. It baffles me why this, like many threads here anymore have to become a debate. People feel the need to prove, or argue their point till it becomes a derailed mess. It's certainly ok to disagree, it's natural. But we owe it to one another to respectfully do so.
 
You vs Tour Players - Scrambling #Own125

How I read that is Approach, Short and putting account for over 7 (70%). Let's say 1/3 of approaches are inside 125. Still about 50% come from inside 125 from that summary. How is driving gonna help me again?
 
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