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You vs Tour Players - Scrambling #Own125

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I see myself lose a lot of strokes on my short game, so this makes sense to me. I'll either duff a pitch/chip, 3-putt, or blade a wedge and my score will skyrocket.
 
I like the video. I think the information is correct / valuable. I also think its a smart continuation for Cleveland of their #own125 campaign.
 
Another issue I've seen here is that people assume "up and down" means saving par, and it's not the same. Up and down means getting "up" onto the green in one shot and "down" (into the hole) with the subsequent shot, and is most often used in conversation when one misses their approach shot.

So how important is it that an amateur gets "up and down" for an 8 or more after hitting into the woods off the tee, or into water on their approach shot? I believe that consistently staying in play should be the first priority for amateur golfers, and most research I've read backs this up.

I think this probably matters much more for the guys that are legitimately 10 or better handicaps. But that's a very small population of amateur golfers (~30%, and I think it' safe to say that not all of those are being honest with themselves and/or their scorecards).
 
-CRW- said:
Another issue I've seen here is that people assume "up and down" means saving par, and it's not the same. Up and down means getting "up" onto the green in one shot and "down" (into the hole) with the subsequent shot, and is most often used in conversation when one misses their approach shot.

So how important is it that an amateur gets "up and down" for an 8 or more after hitting into the woods off the tee, or into water on their approach shot? I believe that consistently staying in play should be the first priority for amateur golfers, and most research I've read backs this up.

I think this probably matters much more for the guys that are legitimately 10 or better handicaps. But that's a very small population of amateur golfers (~30%, and I think it' safe to say that not all of those are being honest with themselves and/or their scorecards).
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10 or less handicaps make up less than 10% of golfers from stats I've seen.
 
I see your point however just in my last round I saw a player hit the fairway, hit about 10 yards from the green in some rough and proceed to take 4 chips and 2 putts for an even 8.

Did he have some holes where he got into some trouble off the tee, of course. But if one hits it into a hazard off the tee with an improved #UpAndDown they could save a high number and still get bogey.
 
Interesting statistics Peltz shares. So far for 2015 I'm 21% for chipping up & down and 15.3% from the sand. Sounds about right based on the number he provided in relation to my handicap.
 
-CRW- said:
Another issue I've seen here is that people assume "up and down" means saving par, and it's not the same. Up and down means getting "up" onto the green in one shot and "down" (into the hole) with the subsequent shot, and is most often used in conversation when one misses their approach shot.

So how important is it that an amateur gets "up and down" for an 8 or more after hitting into the woods off the tee, or into water on their approach shot? I believe that consistently staying in play should be the first priority for amateur golfers, and most research I've read backs this up.

I think this probably matters much more for the guys that are legitimately 10 or better handicaps. But that's a very small population of amateur golfers (~30%, and I think it' safe to say that not all of those are being honest with themselves and/or their scorecards).
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I don't see why this has to be so complex. Getting the ball up and down always matters to everyone.
 
No question short game is important to scoring, but so is the long game. I was told once that short game limited how high you would shoot and long game was potentially what you could shoot. I think anyone who hits 4 GIR's or less per round should figure out why and work on whatever helps them hit more greens. It is much easier to score when you hit more greens, imo. I also think some think that anyone can be a good short game player while not everyone can hit a 300 yard drive, which is true.

The book Broadie wrote and his analysis showed that approach shots and most importantly how close to the hole you got them contributed the most to scoring, for all golfers not just professional golfers.
 
This is one area I still struggle in and plan to work on over the winter.

im curious if his stats for up/down for a10+ hdcps are for par or is he saying up/dwn regardless of the score.
 
Interesting to see. I'm not sure what my scrambling number is, but I'm guessing it's well above average because it's all I do on the course to keep my handicap where it is.

#1 example.... when I shot my year low 69 at Cog Hill in August.... I only hit 3 fairways and 9 greens. I was 'wedging' and putting like no other. Truly is the key to the game.
 
-CRW- said:
Short game skills are important, but his ranking doesn't match reality. Not according to all the current info gained from Shotlink.

"Mark Broadie, the Columbia Business School professor who came up with the strokes-gained-putting statistic now used by the PGA Tour, has devised a way to quantify the relative contribution to scoring of the long game and the short game, and his conclusion is probably not what you think. He is expanding this and other interesting new golf statistical research into a book for publication next year, but here's the take-away: Shots that originate more than 100 yards from the hole have twice the impact on score of shots from inside 100 yards—including putting. Long-game results account for about two-thirds of the variability in scores among golfers on the PGA Tour (the short game is one-third)."

"Guys say you have to have a short game to win tournaments and it is not the case. Not at all," Rory McIlroy said last spring. His comments sparked a controversy, but Jack Nicklaus rose to his defense. "I agree with Rory," Nicklaus said. "I never practiced my short game because I felt like if I can hit 15 greens a round and hit a couple of par-fives in two and if I can make all my putts inside 10 feet, who cares where I chip it?"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303753904577454662959172648
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I would like to introduce you to a golfer who has had a relatively decent run on tour thanks to a sometimes WILD tee game, and an impeccable short game. Tiger Woods.

-CRW- said:
Another issue I've seen here is that people assume "up and down" means saving par, and it's not the same. Up and down means getting "up" onto the green in one shot and "down" (into the hole) with the subsequent shot, and is most often used in conversation when one misses their approach shot.

So how important is it that an amateur gets "up and down" for an 8 or more after hitting into the woods off the tee, or into water on their approach shot? I believe that consistently staying in play should be the first priority for amateur golfers, and most research I've read backs this up.

I think this probably matters much more for the guys that are legitimately 10 or better handicaps. But that's a very small population of amateur golfers (~30%, and I think it' safe to say that not all of those are being honest with themselves and/or their scorecards).
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I can't believe how in depth you're going with a video about the important of a short game and how some folks rank them in value to other aspects of golf, but wow. Based on the above, you're insinuating that it matters MUCH more to a 10 than it does an 11 (semantics), and that golfers over a 10 cap are regularly getting "up and down" for an 8. I know a lot of sub 20 handicaps who don't score 8 more than once a week let alone once a round -- And they very much value their short game. In fact, some of them have an impeccable short game to save them from being higher on the handicap spectrum.

If you want to spend an hour on the range practicing your long game, that's on you. I know that I can miss 30 yards with my driver and still make par. I also know that I can't miss more than an inch with my putter and score. With that in mind, my priority is on putting, and that mentality carries through to most of the people I chat with practicing the game.

To each their own. I think this video is great.
 
emart2173 said:
This is one area I still struggle in and plan to work on over the winter.

im curious if his stats for up/down for a10+ hdcps are for par or is he saying up/dwn regardless of the score.
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Thought the video said up/down when green was missed. I don't read that necessarily as being for par but I can see it both ways. If your 2nd shot hits a tree on a par 4 then from 150 you miss the green then hit a chip and make a putt that's still up/down to me even though it's not for par.
 
Nate said:
I agree. To compare our games and practice habits to a professional that practices and plays 1000% more than us amateurs is not apples to oranges.
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but isn't that done in the video? He starts with Pro and 60% then goes down from there. Also what is the handicap that he is using for "pros"? +7 or +5? While I agree with the theory of short game makes up for a bad tee game, I do believe similarly that a strong iron play will mask a bad short game. It will be interesting to see this play out over time.
 
alez367 said:
but isn't that done in the video? He starts with Pro and 60% then goes down from there. Also what is the handicap that he is using for "pros"? +7 or +5? While I agree with the theory of short game makes up for a bad tee game, I do believe similarly that a strong iron play will mask a bad short game. It will be interesting to see this play out over time.
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I think the intent is to show the viewer where they stand based on all groups. He starts with the professionals and finishes with the 20+ handicappers. It's a starting point for why the big gap. He never says the pros are at 60% and that's why they are better than us. It's one reason but I think showing the gap is eye opening to some.

And you are correct. If I hit all 18 greens and 2 putt them I'm shooting even par. But that is unrealistic. If I hit half the greens during a round (which is pretty good) but fail to get up and down on any of them, my score is in the 80's. If I convert my 30% I'm high 70's now. If I can somehow get it to 50% I'm mid 70's. Pretty big differences that can be made up with a decent short game.
 
Nate said:
I think the intent is to show the viewer where they stand based on all groups. He starts with the professionals and finishes with the 20+ handicappers. It's a starting point for why the big gap. He never says the pros are at 60% and that's why they are better than us. It's one reason but I think showing the gap is eye opening to some.

And you are correct. If I hit all 18 greens and 2 putt them I'm shooting even par. But that is unrealistic. If I hit half the greens during a round (which is pretty good) but fail to get up and down on any of them, my score is in the 80's. If I convert my 30% I'm high 70's now. If I can somehow get it to 50% I'm mid 70's. Pretty big differences that can be made up with a decent short game.
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Not if you birdie a few holes. :banana:

#thinkpositive
 
#Cookie said:
Not if you birdie a few holes. :banana:

#thinkpositive
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You've seen me play......I'm a par machine! But again, you are right, if my putting was better I should be getting more birdies, which I'm not.
 
alez367 said:
but isn't that done in the video? He starts with Pro and 60% then goes down from there. Also what is the handicap that he is using for "pros"? +7 or +5? While I agree with the theory of short game makes up for a bad tee game, I do believe similarly that a strong iron play will mask a bad short game. It will be interesting to see this play out over time.
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The statistics shown in Pelz book prove that players make 50% of 6 footers. It is simple math - get your shot inside 6' and you are more likely than not to have 1 putt. That's the path to lower scores. For the vast majority of us, that is achieved by better short game shots.
 
The difference between 70s and 80s in my game is always my short game. I'm going to miss 6-10 greens a round and how I react to those misses dictates my score game after game.
 
tequila4kapp said:
The statistics shown in Pelz book prove that players make 50% of 6 footers. It is simple math - get your shot inside 6' and you are more likely than not to have 1 putt. That's the path to lower scores. For the vast majority of us, that is achieved by better short game shots.
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If players make 50% of 6 footers, are they equally likely to have 1 putt or more?
 
This was me this year. I did everything better than I ever had- till I got to 100 yards. Then I was horrible


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#Cookie said:
Thought the video said up/down when green was missed. I don't read that necessarily as being for par but I can see it both ways. If your 2nd shot hits a tree on a par 4 then from 150 you miss the green then hit a chip and make a putt that's still up/down to me even though it's not for par.
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I share your sentiments in up/down is regardless of of score. I am assuming he is saying the samething in the video and was hoping it wasn't up/dwn for par for pros and any score for ams.
 
Awkward silence said:
For a PGA tour player who routinely gets up and down I could this ringing true. They play a different game then we do.
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I'm chiming in a late here, but to expand on this a little, I think Jack's and Rory's quotes are relative to the state of the pro game. For example, Jack is assuming that he's only going to need to chip 3 times a round. So he can afford to be a bit flippant about the importance of chipping. In other words, because pros chip less often than amateurs, they may not need to worry about chipping as much relative to their entire game as amateurs, who easily have to chip two or three times more often. But that's not to say that being excellent at chipping is not important. Pros don't always hit 15 greens. Yet they're still able to score because even pros with mediocre short games compared to their peers are objectively phenomenal compared to scratch or low-digit amateurs, and they get up and down exponentially more often. Think how routinely we marvel at the pros' ability to consistently pull off short game shots. Obviously, each individual has strengths and weaknesses, but it's not like the pros' chipping is mediocre while the rest of their game is great.
 
jt2929 said:
If players make 50% of 6 footers, are they equally likely to have 1 putt or more?
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That's why you want to get it inside of 6 feet - the probability of 1 putt becomes larger than the probability of 2 putts.
 
Canadan said:
...I can't believe how in depth you're going with a video about the important of a short game and how some folks rank them in value to other aspects of golf, but wow. Based on the above, you're insinuating...
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I'm not insinuating anything. I shared an opinion. I've never understood why so many people here take opinions so personal.
 
Personally, if I look at the difference between my better rounds (high 70's) and worse ones (mid-80's+), I'd say 80% the stroke delta is linked to short game (chipping, bunkers, putting...)
 
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